# Can I give patrons the shock treatment?



## joker

I was wondering if something like this could be utilized in a haunt?










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Help your dog or cat learn good house manners-use the ScatMat® automatic indoor pet training mat to keep them off furniture, counters, and out of off-limit areas and rooms. Simply place the ScatMat® in any area you want your pet to avoid, and switch it on. The ScatMat® reponds to your pet's touch with a mild, harmless 3-second static pulse. Pets soon learn which areas to keep away from. With three intensity levels, ScatMat® is suitable for any sized cat or dog. This highly effective consumer favorite requires a 9v battery (not included)

This mat is "sofa sized" measuring 12 x 60 inches. Works with dogs and cats of all sizes.

https://partners.radiosys.com:4449/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=2641515&section=10840&beginIndex=0

What do you think?


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## abrcrombe

Is this a public haunt? Is it free? I would lean towards no, but let's see what other people have to say. 
I have seen something similar where you connect a sander to the bottom of a chair/bench and when they sit down, turn it on.


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## Dr Morbius

I think it's a recipe for a law suit. Especially where kids are involved. you never know what peoples medical conditions are. I would stay away from anything that even remotely touches a patron.


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## Creep Cringle

I seriously doubt that a 9volt can really hurt anyone unless they have a pacemaker. I would try it. Now I'm trying to think of where I could use it!


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## The Archivist

You want to put shock collars on your guests??!! Way to go Joker, wish I had thought of that first! No seriously, check out this link:http://usersites.horrorfind.com/home/haunts/monstermaze/props/vibrating_bench.htm
http://softlyspokenmagicspells.com/halloween/50_bill_shocker.html

I think the $50 shocker is more in line with I think you had in mind.


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## Hauntiholik

Joker - there is a product already available called "SHOCK SKINZ".



> When touching these skins your guests will receive a startling yet harmless shock! Shock Skinz are 48"x20" and are constructed from flexible clear PVC to blend into any background. Contain: (4) skinz, (4) extension cords, power pack and 6V AC adapter. Unit operates from 6V power adapter or one 9V battery and has three sensitivity settings. Shock Skinz are safe for all ghosts, ghouls and guests. Great for a black-out room in your haunt!


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## dave the dead

I used one of those novelty shocker pens one year in my haunt. It was all good fun until a young girl with a shunt in her brain went into a seizure. I have no idea if it was the shock that did it or if it was sensory overload or if she was going to have a seizure anyway....long story short is I still feel really bad about the incident. 
My advice is don't do it.


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## joker

abrcrombe said:


> Is this a public haunt? Is it free? I would lean towards no, but let's see what other people have to say.
> I have seen something similar where you connect a sander to the bottom of a chair/bench and when they sit down, turn it on.


Yes its a public haunt. The shock is free, but there will be admission (charity haunt).



Hauntiholik said:


> Joker - there is a product already available called "SHOCK SKINZ".


Yeah I was told that the ScatMat is the exact same thing, just not repackaged and over priced as a new product for haunters.


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## Hauntiholik

If you plan on adding anything the gives a shock you'll need to post a warning for the patrons. Same kind of warning as posted for strobe lights


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## joker

Hauntiholik said:


> If you plan on adding anything the gives a shock you'll need to post a warning for the patrons. Same kind of warning as posted for strobe lights


So if I made an electric chair and put this on it and then put up warning signs High Voltage/Danger etc... around the prop, would that be sufficient if someone sat on it?


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## Hauntiholik

joker said:


> So if I made an electric chair and put this on it and then put up warning signs High Voltage/Danger etc... around the prop, would that be sufficient if someone sat on it?


That sign would do but I doubt some people would equate it with a possible health risk because it is in a scene of your haunt.

What I mean is a warning sign near the entrance of the haunt. Something similar to this perhaps:


> Warning!​
> This haunted house attraction utilizes strobe lights, electric shock, extremely loud noises, fog effects, realistic props, cinematic gore, power tools, uneven flooring, tight spaces, and in some cases no lights at all.
> 
> Women who are pregnant and individuals who suffer from heart conditions, high blood pressure, asthma, seizures, light sensitivity, claustrophobia or any other health condition that could be aggravated by these special effects should consider this warning before entering the haunt.


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## Devils Chariot

I hate being shocked, and I would be mad at you joker, however if i shocked someone I would think it was hilarious. Tough call.

I think if you use it it should be a "you asked for it" like you said where they have to sit in the electric chair, but no as a thing that shocks everyone who goes thru. Let the adventurous ones get shocked.


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## MotelSixx

Personally, I would 86 the idea due to the fact that people are itching for lawsuits to pay their bills. Close friends:yes, funny; strangers: no, pissy


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## joker

MotelSixx said:


> Personally, I would 86 the idea due to the fact that people are itching for lawsuits to pay their bills. Close friends:yes, funny; strangers: no, pissy


Yeah you're probably right. Would have been fun(ny) though


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## DarkLore

I'm with DC. If you did it as a test your will thing...it'd be okay. Presuming the shock isn't hazardous. For example...an electric chair people can sit in. Or a "Handle Of Doom" kind of thing. With a meter along the side....and a sign.


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## Warrant2000

Instead of an electrical/static shock, how about using a vibration effect? Something llike if you sat on an orbital sander. It would give somewhat of the same surprising effect without any electricity or problems with liability.

An electrical chair could be rigged with a vibration plate in the seat. When activated, it vibrates at a high RPM and makes a loud noise (along with the loud screams).


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## remylass

I would be afraid of a lawsuit. I am chicken, so I wouldn't use it.


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## fritz42_male

Vibration seems to be the way to go - anyone remember the hand buzzers that were clockwork?


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## The Mangler

You should have your head examined. In no way should you even be considering this.


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## joker

The Mangler said:


> You should have your head examined. In no way should you even be considering this.


Yet this the exact same product is sold by Oak Island Productions to haunted attractions for the purpose I asked about at a huge mark up?

See page 7 of their 2009 Catalog


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## The Mangler

Nice. The magazine told me it was okay. 

To the people of Queens, I love you. And I want to wish all of you a happy Easter. May God bless you in this life and in the next. And for now I say goodbye and goodnight.


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## joker

The Mangler said:


> You should have your head examined. In no way should you even be considering this.


Actually I probably should....muwahahaha:googly:



The Mangler said:


> Nice. The magazine told me it was okay.


And it was 9 out of the 10 voices in my head that said it was ok. I only questioned it when there wasn't a unanimous vote.

I should have known better than to listen to the 10th one though....he smokes pot and doesn't even pay attention to our discussions.


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## The Mangler

No problem.

Signed,

Wicked King Wicker


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## Aelwyn

While it would be cool, I agree with Hauntiholik....a big, huge warning sign (and perhaps an actor out front actually SAYING it) would be needed. As well as a "we are not responsible if you do not heed these warnings" or something to that effect.

It's like strobe lights...I had a friend who is epileptic and we went to a Hallowe'en burlesque show where they used strobe lights---with NO warning signs or warnings on advertisements or anything. She sat through the performance with her head on the table with a coat over her head so she wouldn't go into seizures. At the break I gave the performers **** for NOT warning people.


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## Bone Dancer

Those of us who walk around with batteries in our chest also vote no to this idea. 
I am not sure, but I don't think any amount of signage would protect you from legal action. I almost think you would have to have them sign a waiver, which would kinda spoil the suprise.


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## The Mangler

A sign will not work. A verbal warning will not work. A written signed waiver will not work. Nothing will. You do this and you will be held strictly liable. Without question. But what do I know, I'm just a lawyer.


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## Aquayne

You should give up on the idea of an actual shock. A strong vibrator whould work just as well with no physical danger. "Joy Buzzers" give the impression of an electric shock but there is no actual shock just mechanical vibrations.


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## joker

Actually I never seriously considered shocking my guests, but wanted to see what the reaction on here would be.

Here's some safety info found on the product though:
_The energy dispensed by the Scat Mat is extremely small. It is common practice to test or demonstrate the device by placing the heel of one's hand across the mat. The output of the unit at the lowest level was described by Dr. Harry Rowsell, Executive Director, Canadian Council on Animal Care in 1988, as follows:
"My experience in the demonstration of the Scat Mat was one of a tingling of the finger tips and the skin on the more sensitive parts of my hand and forearm. I considered it an experience which one would want to end by removing the hand, however, there was no lasting effect or sensation of tingling after removal."

Medtronic Canada, a manufacturer of pacemakers, reviewed the output characteristics of the product and concluded that under normal usage, the Scat Mat presents no problem to any person wearing one of their devices, even if he should accidentally contact an energized mat.

If a small child should come into contact with the mat, he or she will recoil away from it, just as an unsuspecting adult would do. Older children will consider the Scat Mat an unusual new plaything.

Upon demonstration of safety and effectiveness, in compliance with Canadian law, the Scat Mat was issued Registration Number 20897 by Agriculture Canada under the Pest Control Products Act. Scat Mat manufacturing facilities are also registered with the Environmental Protection Agency in the US(EPA Est. No.59392-CN-001 & 160170).

_​


The Mangler said:


> A sign will not work. A verbal warning will not work. A written signed waiver will not work. Nothing will. You do this and you will be held strictly liable. Without question. But what do I know, I'm just a lawyer.


So signs like this don't protect property owners?


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## The Mangler

No. You will be judged based on all of the facts and circumstances. A sign or warning is merely one fact that is considered. You can be sued. You can lose. You can be held liable. You can lose everything that you own and would have owned, especially if you have created the risk, and especially if the risk exceeded the benefits. What is the benefit of medical equipment/electric power/etc.? When compared to the risks, and the warnings of these risks, are the benefits outweighed? Ask yourself, what are the benefits of what you propose? Good times? A good laugh? If you touch them and hurt them you will lose. 9V or a couple mA is far more than enough to do foreseeable harm to some people.


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## Warrant2000

joker said:


> Actually I never seriously considered shocking my guests, but wanted to see what the reaction on here would be.
> 
> Here's some safety info found on the product though:
> _The energy dispensed by the Scat Mat is extremely small. It is common practice to test or demonstrate the device by placing the heel of one's hand across the mat. The output of the unit at the lowest level was described by Dr. Harry Rowsell, Executive Director, Canadian Council on Animal Care in 1988, as follows:
> "My experience in the demonstration of the Scat Mat was one of a tingling of the finger tips and the skin on the more sensitive parts of my hand and forearm. I considered it an experience which one would want to end by removing the hand, however, there was no lasting effect or sensation of tingling after removal."
> 
> Medtronic Canada, a manufacturer of pacemakers, reviewed the output characteristics of the product and concluded that under normal usage, the Scat Mat presents no problem to any person wearing one of their devices, even if he should accidentally contact an energized mat.
> 
> If a small child should come into contact with the mat, he or she will recoil away from it, just as an unsuspecting adult would do. Older children will consider the Scat Mat an unusual new plaything.
> 
> Upon demonstration of safety and effectiveness, in compliance with Canadian law, the Scat Mat was issued Registration Number 20897 by Agriculture Canada under the Pest Control Products Act. Scat Mat manufacturing facilities are also registered with the Environmental Protection Agency in the US(EPA Est. No.59392-CN-001 & 160170).
> 
> _​
> So signs like this don't protect property owners?


I would think so, if you have a million dollar insurance policy.

I recall a news story a few months ago about a traveling family that stopped on the side of the road so the kids could go to pee in the bushes. The owners of a nearby property shot at and killed the 7 year old boy with a shotgun. On his property were signs that read, "Trespassers will be shot. Survivers (sic) will be reshot!! Smile I will.." The shooting man and woman were arrested and charged with second-degree felony counts of aggravated assault.

Sure that's an extreme example, but the point is that the posted signs and warnings did not protect the owner.

On the other side, if a person purposely ignores posted warnings, bypasses safety fences, climbs over retaining walls, cuts locks, tampers with wiring, and goes into an area that a normal person would consider unsafe, then a jury might release liability to the owner.

Joker, the decision is ultimately up to you, and if there is a small voice in you that has doubts, then that may be the voice you should listen to. You may be disappointed by not being able to produce the desired effect, but you can imagine the trouble that can be avoided by taking the safe road.


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## joker

So pretty much anything that can cause harm in anyway should not be done in a haunt and if it is willingly done then the owner of the haunt will or can be held liable? And, there is really nothing the haunt owner can do about it to protect himself?

So where is the line drawn or is it?
No fog machines (asthmatics)
No strobes (epileptics)
No hard surfaces (idiots)?


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## The Mangler

Yes, all of those things carry risks. But let's dig a little deeper for your benefit because I am not certain that you entirely grasp this. Everything is weighed. A warning certainly weighs in your favor. In fact, depending on other circusmtances, it may outweigh a low-risk, visible danger such as "hard surfaces" as you put it. With regard to fog machines, are they outside or inside? Wouldn't you agree that the risk for inside fog is greater than the risk for outside fog? You see, these are what we lawyers call facts. Everything depends on them. Most people want legal bright lines, but there are just so few of them. I can tell that you want the rule to be: "If I warn them, then it's okay." But that simply is not the legal standard. Sorry! Sad, but true.


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## joker

The Mangler said:


> I can tell that you want the rule to be: "If I warn them, then it's okay."


No actually no I'm not looking for a safety net ruling giving me free reign to do whatever I want, as long as I post a sign.

I realize that with every scare I come up with, prop I build, facade I create, etc... that by introducing the general public to it I'm assuming some risk, and there is an expectation from my guests that I have built my haunt to be a safe environment for the majority of the general public.

I'd be willing to bet of the guests that go through any haunt there is a greater chance of you having someone who suffers from asthma than someone with a pace maker.

If that's true (I made an assumption and will probably regret it) wouldn't using fog in your haunt put you at a greater risk than using the discussed pet deterrent device?

I'd think the majority of people (another assumption) expect fog to be used in or at a haunted attraction. Those with asthma who venture through anyway assume the risks.

Should I be concerned if Joe Blow with asthma chooses to take the risk? Well actually I am concerned, but how am I to know he has asthma? Unless I know him personally I don't, so I post a sign to notify Joe of the hazard to him.

At what point am I still responsible he came through and had a reaction to the fog and suffered from a serious asthma attic?

Why should Joe Blow be able to hold me accountable for putting him in harms way when I wasn't even aware of his condition? I clearly posted the use of FOG, and it was his decision to enter anyway!


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## Gothic Nightmare

I wouldn't do it with real electricity. However a strong vibration combined with an electrical sound effect would be enough to freak people out.

A few years ago one of my kids in a not-so-bright moment took one of those trick shocking gum gags to school. The one where you pull on the stick of gum and get shocked. Shocked people all day with it. Then one girl that knew it was a trick wanted to see what it felt like. Her arm went completely numb. Her parents had to come get her and take her to the doctor. My kid got in a lot of trouble and we almost got sued. We were really lucky. Well I was lucky. Him not so much. The poor girl had no feeling for days. That had a watch battery in it.


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## Rooey

The Mangler said:


> Yes, all of those things carry risks. But let's dig a little deeper for your benefit because I am not certain that you entirely grasp this. Everything is weighed. A warning certainly weighs in your favor. In fact, depending on other circusmtances, it may outweigh a low-risk, visible danger such as "hard surfaces" as you put it. With regard to fog machines, are they outside or inside? Wouldn't you agree that the risk for inside fog is greater than the risk for outside fog? You see, these are what we lawyers call facts. Everything depends on them. Most people want legal bright lines, but there are just so few of them. I can tell that you want the rule to be: "If I warn them, then it's okay." But that simply is not the legal standard. Sorry! Sad, but true.


What if a patron has a heart attack due to an extremely well crafted scare?
What if a patron has nightmares due to something they see in my haunt?
What if a patron sees something gross and now cannot eat pork products?
What if a patron screams too loud and strains their vocal chords?

These are all risks that the PATRON assumes when they enter your haunt, IF you have posted warnings about what to expect when entering. The sign states that by entering the attraction, you accept these risks.

I just went to Cedar Point amusement park, where I was turned upside down, and shaken, and flung thru space on numerous roller coasters. I got soaked with water. I also went thru the haunted house at Ghostly Manor Thrill Center, where I was startled many times. I signed no waiver at either attraction.

I don't like getting soaked, but knew that this might be the case, so I have no lawsuit.
I don't like getting jolted around on a roller coaster, yet I boarded one and have no lawsuit.
I don't particularly like being startled nor frightened. Had I experienced a heart palpitation or an attack, I would not have a winnable lawsuit.

This link states that there are surprisingly few haunted house lawsuits on the books. http://www.insidecounsel.com/2013/10/31/are-haunted-houses-liable-for-personal-injury

So, as long as what you do in your haunt is not illegal, and as long as you warn your patrons that they enter at their own risk, it appears that the odds are in your favor, IMHO.


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