# Networked Prop Ideas?



## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

Just bought a new book titled "Making Things Talk" that is a how-to on building networked microprocessors so that boards can talk to each other through a Cat-5 cable, wireless or even over the web. I have been trying to come up with a good prop idea to try out some of the concepts because the projects in the book don't really interest me. 

Having one prop telling another or all the others that someone has just arrived, or their location or that it has just activated has to have some decent application. I can't help but think there has to be a good prop or multiple prop idea in this somewhere. 

I thought of having one of the pop-ups being able to be controlled by anyone over the Internet. However a lot of work for one night and most people will be running their own haunts and displays. 

Also thought about a number of corpse heads around the graveyard that all turned and stared at you wherever you went. Any other suggestions? Thanks.


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## Terrormaster (Sep 27, 2007)

Being from a software engineering background, I had thought of doing something like this before. Not on the level you're talking about. 

I was thinking more along the lines of a prop controller device that was LAN and/or WAN ready. Make them all devices on the network and have one computer application controlling the lot of them.

I've seen this done in one degree or another using serial port communication and even MIDI. But I'd still love to see a cost economical LAN/WAN controller for props under the $100 buck mark.

-TM


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## joker (Sep 25, 2007)

> Having one prop telling another or all the others that someone has just arrived


What about a greeter (prop) that points out various things in the yard haunt that are triggered either by him pointing them out or mentioning them in his welcome message.

I do like the idea of several corpse heads watching you as you walk past.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

Joker,

Neat idea. Definetly deserves some thought.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

TerrorMaster,

The book uses an Arduino board which is about $35.00, a Lantronix Xport device server (the Lantronix Direct is about $30.00) and some open source software. I think you can get there if you are willing to write the code.


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## Revenant (Mar 17, 2007)

How about having your animations coordinating for scares like the actors do? One prop menaces them or does something goofy, the people are distracted by it or change their position thus allowing the other scare to totally surprise them.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

TSquared said:


> Just bought a new book titled "Making Things Talk" that is a how-to on building networked microprocessors so that boards can talk to each other through a Cat-5 cable, wireless or even over the web. I have been trying to come up with a good prop idea to try out some of the concepts because the projects in the book don't really interest me.
> 
> Having one prop telling another or all the others that someone has just arrived, or their location or that it has just activated has to have some decent application. I can't help but think there has to be a good prop or multiple prop idea in this somewhere.


Interesting, I've been thinking about this and have some questions. Wouldn't this entail having every prop contain a "microprocessor" so they can talk to the network?



> I thought of having one of the pop-ups being able to be controlled by anyone over the Internet. However a lot of work for one night and most people will be running their own haunts and displays.


Why would you want to use the net for just one person to control a prop?



> Also thought about a number of corpse heads around the graveyard that all turned and stared at you wherever you went. Any other suggestions? Thanks.


A control program like VSA can already do that, unless you have a sensor in each head to follow a visitor in which case you wouldn't need a network to do that either.

Don't get me wrong, networking props may have a use, but I can't think of one, short of controlling a haunt in California from the great state of Maine. I just know I'm missing something, and someone will come up with a use that makes me slap my forehead and say "'Doh!"


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

joker said:


> What about a greeter (prop) that points out various things in the yard haunt that are triggered either by him pointing them out or mentioning them in his welcome message.
> 
> I do like the idea of several corpse heads watching you as you walk past.


 Wouldn't this require a proccessor for each prop as well? VSA can trigger props at various points in a speech or action from another prop.


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## Terrormaster (Sep 27, 2007)

What would really be neat is having an MP3 decoder on board the device then custom stream your clips from the controlling pc to the prop without the need to store the mp3's within the prop.

Usefulness? I can think of plenty things. But ethernet is a far superior technology versus serial. I can guarantee a small switch or hub is much more compact and space efficient than a comparable serial MUX. Also, serial goes over COM ports which have a fixed limit far smaller than available IP addresses on a private LAN. Guess being an IT geek ethernet makes more sense.

Sure one could program each microprocessor separately but thats not really a scalable solution. 

@TSquared: gonna have to check out that book. I've looked at both of those components before when initially researching this idea but wasn't sure how to use them and didn't have the spare funds at the time to experiment. Willing to write the software? I'm an engineer - I'm ALWAYS willing to write the software hehehe.

-TM


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

But HOW would the props talk to the network? And what uses have you thought of? I really want to know, I'm building a control consol this winter.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

Terrormaster,

The Lantronix Direct+ is a serial to ethernet co-processor with a built in webserver for just at $30. I originally thought of writing the code on each microprocessor. However, it may be slicker to run a cheap microprocessor at each prop such as a picaxe to control the outputs and send program instructions over ethernet, let the Lantronix device convert to serial for the picaxe to hit the outputs to the relays. Needs some more thought.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

*VSA Inputs?*



Dr Morbius said:


> Wouldn't this require a proccessor for each prop as well? VSA can trigger props at various points in a speech or action from another prop.


I went to the VSA site and couldn't find where VSA could take an input from something, call an interrupt to the normal routine and use that input to trigger other items. If it can, then it is probably an easier solution for the "pointing greeter" However, if the props can communicate with each other, then they can pass on any data that a sensor can pick up such as the specific location of a TOT. I still think there are some cool prop ideas out there. Maybe I just like the technology side too much and want to use the newest bells and whistles!


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

Could the Lantronix convert Serial to ethernet, then convert it back to serial to run a servo controller like a Parallax? Then you wouldn't need to code anything, just use a program like VSA that sends USB/RS232 signals to the ethernet board. Am I way off base? I know little to nothing about networking, but would be great to run a serial based board over a longer distance than a USB cable or hub.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

TSquared said:


> I went to the VSA site and couldn't find where VSA could take an input from something, call an interrupt to the normal routine and use that input to trigger other items. If it can, then it is probably an easier solution for the "pointing greeter" However, if the props can communicate with each other, then they can pass on any data that a sensor can pick up such as the specific location of a TOT. I still think there are some cool prop ideas out there. Maybe I just like the technology side too much and want to use the newest bells and whistles!


I think I'm slowly getting this. My first thought of a use would be more for sound and lighting control. It would be cool to have ambient sounds adjust the volume to the scene at which a ToT is located and lower the volume when no one is there. Like the Pirates of the Carribean ride does. Also, I'm still noodling with the idea of using a keyboard circuit board hack to control the hotkeys in VSA. It's a hard wired switch solution though, but still in the drawing board stage.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> Interesting, I've been thinking about this and have some questions. Wouldn't this entail having every prop contain a "microprocessor" so they can talk to the network?
> 
> Why would you want to use the net for just one person to control a prop?
> 
> ...


You would need a processor in each prop, however you could make do with something much cheaper like a picaxe versus the Arduino.

I gave up on the idea of internet control. Not because I wouldn't like to implement it for the tech challange, but so what that some kid in another state gets to run one of your props.

With the heads following the visitor, I don't see how VSA can do this. How would VSA know where the person is located and which way they are moving? My thought was that in a large graveyard, each MCU would have a rangefinder that would give the distance from the prop (hence location) of the person. Since it is networked, then that prop could send the location to every other prop that is out of range and they could all turn their heads to the location and follow the person.These props could be all over the graveyard. Just an idea.

Appreciate the thoughts.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

Yea, I misread the post..you're right, VSA can't detect anything...yet. Heheh.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> Could the Lantronix convert Serial to ethernet, then convert it back to serial to run a servo controller like a Parallax? Then you wouldn't need to code anything, just use a program like VSA that sends USB/RS232 signals to the ethernet board. Am I way off base? I know little to nothing about networking, but would be great to run a serial based board over a longer distance than a USB cable or hub.


The Lantronix converts serial to TCP or UDP to send data by ethernet and then it will convert back to serial. Here's a link to their cheapest module:

http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/embedded-device-servers/xport-direct-plus.html

Someone else more familiar with VSA signals will have to answer the question of whether you can send signals to the Lantronix. However looking at both sites, it appears VSA uses RS232 and the Lantronix is expecting TCP. I did see some software conversion programs on the web to convert RS232 to TCP, but didn't spend much time. Maybe someone on this forum is more familiar.


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## slightlymad (May 25, 2006)

You guys have really peaked my interest.

Doc what would be neat is if the two could be combined through translation in order to have the greater prop "point out" and activate momentarily other props allow them to perform a short routine and then possible return them to a motion/ sound activation other than the routine performed for the greater.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

slightlymad said:


> You guys have really peaked my interest.
> 
> Doc what would be neat is if the two could be combined through translation in order to have the greater prop "point out" and activate momentarily other props allow them to perform a short routine and then possible return them to a motion/ sound activation other than the routine performed for the greater.


Yes, I agree that would be neat. I'm looking forward to the progression of this discussion as well. I know I'll learn something!


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## halloweenguy (Dec 27, 2006)

Why not go with a DMX setup??? DMX is also addressable and has many devices (lasers,RGB LED Lights, foggers, Light controllers, relay boards) already to plug in to it. It has a 1000 foot range and there are new dmx servo controller boards like the "Skulltronix Board of Chuckie" which is powered by Brookshire VSA with Enttec USB DMX interface.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

halloweenguy said:


> Why not go with a DMX setup??? DMX is also addressable and has many devices (lasers,RGB LED Lights, foggers, Light controllers, relay boards) already to plug in to it. It has a 1000 foot range and there are new dmx servo controller boards like the "Skulltronix Board of Chuckie" which is powered by Brookshire VSA with Enttec USB DMX interface.


Can a DMX setup detect feedback circuits? I'm not sure if that kind of setup can be used to have props "talk" to each other..can it?


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## YardHaunt ATOM (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track as everybody but I would agree that you should look at the Skulltronix.... The have an excercist program/controller that should do alot of what is being discussed here. I have one.... if I would have had more time to set it up correctly for this year. Anycase you can look at it and be the judge.
http://www.skulltronix.com/skulltronixFlash.html


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## Terrormaster (Sep 27, 2007)

@ATOM: If memory serves me correct, Exorcist sits on top of VSA in a way that allows you to run multiple instances of VSA Controller. The limits discussed are really on the hardware side with COM ports, not software.

Also, some people are thinking a little 2 dimentional still.

Lets take things a step further. Imagine your props like objects in a computer game. In the code for each object, a state is usually tracked to indicate what the object is currently doing. Now if another object tries to interact with it, it may respond differently based on its state.

Now lets say you had a Pirates of the Caribbean display. Pirate A is the middle of some dialog and a sensor kicks off Pirate B who wants to interact with Pirate A. A has to stop his dialog and start his interaction with B in a smooth manner. In addition B would have to wait for A to finish his cycle and start interacting with him before moving to the next section of his script. A has to also know it was B because it may also possible for C to interupt him as well which could elicit an entirely different response.

It's all about one prop being aware of what the other is doing and being aware of what it's doing so it knows how to deal with changes.

If set up correctly with maybe some AI on the controlling device and the props could come alive in a way like never before.

-TM


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

halloweenguy said:


> Why not go with a DMX setup??? DMX is also addressable and has many devices (lasers,RGB LED Lights, foggers, Light controllers, relay boards) already to plug in to it. It has a 1000 foot range and there are new dmx servo controller boards like the "Skulltronix Board of Chuckie" which is powered by Brookshire VSA with Enttec USB DMX interface.


A quick look at the SkullTronix site and I think you are right. Between the Exorcist box and the Board of Chuckie, it looks like you can do 90% of what is being discussed here. Need to dig into the forums there a little to see what issues people are having. Haven't tried to price it all out yet to see what a total package would cost either.

It appears that the only advantage to networked props versus the above solution is that the networked props could actually pass along specific data from any type of sensor you can buy. Location, temperature, acceleration, tilt, toxic gas!, whatever... That gets me back to my first post. Can anyone think of an interesting application here? The tech definitely interests me, but no need pounding a finish nail with a sledgehammer if an off the shelf solution such as above will work.


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## randyaz (May 26, 2006)

some food thought.... 

Make a RS-485 network (4000 feet range) using a microcontroller (say a basic stamp or SX) as a master with multiple stamps as a slave on multiple nodes/drops (up to 32) with each node/drop using a MAX485 transciever. 

Do I know how to do this? ...no way. But I've been reading where others are doing it.


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## Scottzilla (Jun 13, 2007)

Dr Morbius:

DMX could be used, but the problem with it is there can be only one master on a chain talking to one or more slaves:

M - S - S - S - S - S

To do what you guys are talking about you would need a DMX interface with a separate input for each device so that they could all talk. 

A different choice would be a protocol that allows several devices to take turns "talking" on a line.

You could build an RS-485 network (this is what DMX-512 is based off of anyway) to do what you want. It seems like the show control industry is moving towards ethernet for everything but that would be more expensive/difficult to try to implement. RS-485 is pretty easy and you could do whatever you wanted for your higher-layer protocols.


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## halloweenguy (Dec 27, 2006)

You guys are correct in the sense that with a new design you should get a more dynamic display with multiple microcontrollers... no argument from me here. I should have read this thread closer and let the ideas bounce around more. 

I was just offering a workable solution that can be inplemented now and has been tested in this years Hagan Haunt in Rancho Cordova. This current solution would only emulate what you guys are talking about.

DMX is based on the same RS-485 network (now TIA-485) as mentioned by Scottzilla 

DMX can handle up to 32 receiving devices can be connected to the bus with a maximum distance of 1,600 feet between devices, and maximum overall bus length of around 4,000 feet.

Exorcist does become the front end to VSA, and VSA controls the DMX interface. Exorcist has 8 inputs and will work with PIR sensors, Mat Switches, or any other sensor you can interface with dry contacts. Those 8 inputs can trigger 8 different VSA routines, with built in software logic ,timers, and media players, The new version I have tested will trigger video too.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

halloweenguy said:


> Exorcist does become the front end to VSA, and VSA controls the DMX interface. Exorcist has 8 inputs and will work with PIR sensors, Mat Switches, or any other sensor you can interface with dry contacts. Those 8 inputs can trigger 8 different VSA routines, with built in software logic ,timers, and media players, The new version I have tested will trigger video too.


Since you have tested the Exorcist, can you tell me how you run sound to 8 different props/scenes from one computer? I posted on the Skulltronix forum and it appears you have to add a 7.1 sound card and use special software to play a sound to one of the 8 channels. Correct? Here's a copy of the post below. Thanks.

Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: Questions on Set Up

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I currently have a yard haunt with numerous pneumatic props controlled by a number of different microprocessors. Would like to pull this all under a central control system and it looks like the combination of VSA and Exorcist may work. Hoping someone can confirm my assumptions and answer my questions.

Yard haunt has 6 animated props spread around the yard. Furthest one is approximately 150 feet away. Here's my assumptions/questions:

1. Triggering - If the prop is manually triggered at the computer, assuming that I just use a button with the wires connected to a jack and the button shorts the wires. If I am using a motion sensor at the prop, I would have to have the motion sensor drive a relay and have the relay output short the two wires so that no current travels to the Exorcist. Correct? Also is there a distance limitation on the trigger wire?

2. Prop Control - I am assuming that at each prop I will have to have a servo/relay control board to trigger the solenoid valves. What communication standards are used for control? What are my distance limitations? And I am assuming I don't run 6 control cables from the computer to each prop and the devices are daisy chained. However, looking at the ssc manufacturer's websites, I don't see how this is done. Finally, do I really need a ssc board, or can I use my current microprocessor setup and just have VSA send a triggering pulse to the microprocessor?

3. Sound - I am assuming I run a sound cable from the Exorcist to each prop's powered speakers. What are the distance limitations here?

4. Multiple Triggers - Can 3 or 4 or 5 of the props be running their routines simultaneously? Any recommended system requirements above those listed in this instance?

Appreciate any help to the above questions. The VSA/Exorcist combination is getting some play on the haunt forum's and no one knows the answers to these type questions.

T2

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Phoenix
Site Admin

Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Chester, UK
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:25 am Post subject:

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1) triggering had multiple options, you can trigger via a button on the IO box, by a sensor in the haunt (which does the same as the IO Box button, by infrared remote control or by a software method in Exorcist.

2) yup you will need some kind of output board compatible with VSA, yes you could use your own board and trigger from VSA using a VSA compatible output medium.... ie the parallel port or DMX relay on the computer.

3) the sound runs from the PC not Exorcist, if you use a 7.1 sound card and my sound mixing software then you can have 8 separate sound channels playing simultaneously over 8 separate speakers or combination of..... all sound limitations are the same as regular sound and can be compensated for using regular amplifier systems.

4) Exorcist has 8 input channels and can play 8 VSA routines PLUS 8 sounds PLUS a video file simultaneously.... however, be aware that the largest limiting factor is going to be your own PC
_________________
Bryan Davis 
Phoenix Animatronix


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

From what I gather, you have to pre mix your 7.1 sound tracks prior to executing them on the Exorcist. The software and technique for doing that is linked on thier forum, and you're right you do need a 7.1 ss card in your PC to make it work.


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## TSquared (Nov 4, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> From what I gather, you have to pre mix your 7.1 sound tracks prior to executing them on the Exorcist. The software and technique for doing that is linked on thier forum, and you're right you do need a 7.1 ss card in your PC to make it work.


I received another reply concerning questions about the VSA/Exorcist combination.

In using this combo to control multiple props in a yard or scenes in an indoor haunt, it appears that you would need to go with an ssc relay board at each prop. If you use DMX, right now you can only have one prop/scene going at the same time. If you try to fire off a second prop/scene while the first is going, it won't respond using the VSA/Exorcist combo. They are working on a version that may work in the future.

In addition, if you have any props/scenes controlled by a sensor such as a PIR, then that PIR has to run a relay whose output then shorts the trigger wires to the Exorcist.

This looks to be a pretty expensive solution to just control props. If you are controlling animation scenes with servos, lights, sounds, etc. maybe not.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

TS, I sent you a PM.


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## Scott (Mar 5, 2008)

If you're still looking for a reason to network all these systems...

I agree with the game state concept.
You could even make the whole piece a game.
I'd be looking at the piece as an interactive work more than just a dark ride. This way it could be different every time (or have a bit of variety).

I'm trying to do something similar with Arduinos. How did everything turn out?


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## JonnyMac (Apr 5, 2007)

No, DMX is a one-way system. Thankfully, DMX uses RS-485 circuitry so the same components that can be used in a one-way (DMX) system can be used in a bi-directional networked system, one that will let controllers receive commands from as well as provide data back to a master (or masters).

The circuitry is not all that complicated. EFX-TEK will be releasing an RS-485/DMX module for our Prop-SX controller that will let Prop-SX users drop it into DMX systems, or use it as part of smart network. We'll provide schematics for those that want to roll-their-own for a different controller.



Dr Morbius said:


> Can a DMX setup detect feedback circuits? I'm not sure if that kind of setup can be used to have props "talk" to each other..can it?


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