# Someone selling our how-to's on Ebay



## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Looks like there are two people on Ebay that have burned a bunch of projects they found on the Monsterlist and Hauntproject, and are selling the CDs.

Here is one user... currently has 2 auctions.
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/stacylkdl910
One of her auctions here:
http://tinyurl.com/4pfd9j

Here is the other.
http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/topcaliber
One was taken down, and he closed the other one after that, but you can still see it here:
http://tinyurl.com/4epk9d

I don't know about you, but it ticks me off to see someone selling plans for one of my projects, when I put them out there free for the Halloween community.


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## spideranne (Jul 17, 2006)

Thats just wrong!!!!


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## bignick (Sep 25, 2008)

Unless people have it copyrighted i don't think there is anything you can do. 

I feel sorry for the people paying her without knowing that you can get it for free.


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## Hauntiholik (May 17, 2006)

Contact ebay and see if they'll take it down.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

It's one of the reasons I don't do how-to's anymore. The main reason is time, but this is a close second.


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## Spartan005 (Mar 13, 2007)

that sucks

I was actually just on the monster list a couple hours ago and clicked on a few links where the guy removed all of the instructions because he found about the whole ebay thing going on

I really hate people sometimes...


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## Terrormaster (Sep 27, 2007)

BigNick's right - nothing we can do unless the material is either patented or copyrighted and very few of us do that (me think's DC's books are the only ones). The real victims are not us but the poor clueless souls who buy it not knowing it's available freely online.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

Isn't there a way to post a comment on the auction stating where the free links are?


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## Hauntiholik (May 17, 2006)

The seller would have approve of the comment for it to be displayed.

I don't know if any of the how to's fall under intellectual property. Is there a lawyer in the house?


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> It's one of the reasons I don't do how-to's anymore. The main reason is time, but this is a close second.


Uh... isn't that punishing everyone else in the Halloween community, and just incidentally making it easier for people like this to sell their ripped off how-to cds?


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## Hauntiholik (May 17, 2006)

I would suggest sending messages to the people who purchased these CDs on ebay to let them know that the how to's were free and that the sellers were selling the ideas without permission.


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Spartan005 said:


> that sucks
> 
> I was actually just on the monster list a couple hours ago and clicked on a few links where the guy removed all of the instructions because he found about the whole ebay thing going on
> 
> I really hate people sometimes...


He's the one that clued me in. I emailed him, saying pretty much what I said to Dr. Morbius... hopefully he puts them back up.


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## divaann (Aug 7, 2008)

The first seller had complaints about her in her feedback over the CD and she had nerve to say they were a competetor trying to discredit her!!! Go figure!!!


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## Aelwyn (Jul 7, 2008)

International copyright is applied as soon as someone writes something down! You do NOT need to apply for copyrights to your material. Patents are a different thing altogether. Copyright can be proven by the fact that any website contains the date of the post.

Go after the seller on E-bay! If he/she is selling something that is an EXACT (or extremely similar) rip off of someone else's tutorial, they can be removed from e-bay, have their seller's account suspended, and even be charged with copyright infringement.

Linkies:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.html
Copyright - Wikipedia, the free [email protected]@[email protected]@/wiki/File:Copyright.svg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Copyright.svg/168px-Copyright.svg.png"@@[email protected]@commons/thumb/b/b0/Copyright.svg/168px-Copyright.svg.png


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## bignick (Sep 25, 2008)

I was thinking about starting an add and selling mine for a penny just to get everyones attention on me and then in the description i will state that the how to is straight from Monsterlist and provide the link. That would shut those sellers down in no time.


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## Aelwyn (Jul 7, 2008)

bignick said:


> I was thinking about starting an add and selling mine for a penny just to get everyones attention on me and then in the description i will state that the how to is straight from Monsterlist and provide the link. That would shut those sellers down in no time.


Good idea!!!!

Also, REPORT THOSE SELLERS! They are violating copyright law. I've already reported each of those items, and encourage everyone to do the same.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

PerfessorEvil said:


> Uh... isn't that punishing everyone else in the Halloween community, and just incidentally making it easier for people like this to sell their ripped off how-to cds?


I'm not advocating everyone stop doing how-tos, I know you run a howto site (the best IMO, BTW), and I wouldn't want to hurt that in any way. It's just my choice, it's based on a number of reasons not the least of which is the time it takes to make the how-to. Not sure how it makes it easier for people to sell ripped off CDs, though. If there's no howto on my props, then how can they make a CD of it?


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## Turbophanx (Jun 30, 2008)

There is always someone who is willing to do anything to make a quick buck. I hate people like that.

On the other hand though, people buying this probably arent hardcore like us....


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> I'm not advocating everyone stop doing how-tos, I know you run a howto site (the best IMO, BTW), and I wouldn't want to hurt that in any way. It's just my choice, it's based on a number of reasons not the least of which is the time it takes to make the how-to. Not sure how it makes it easier for people to sell ripped off CDs, though. If there's no howto on my props, then how can they make a CD of it?


Well, sure, if you never built a how-to in the first place, they can't steal it. For anyone who has their stuff stolen already, and then takes down their how-to, the only place to get it is from the CD (or archive.org)


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

*Dr. Morbius *you do some amazing stuff... there use to be a stigma in hollywood that no fx artist would ever share their secrets... to them it is what kept them in business... thank god that the immortal Dick Smith decided that wasn't the best practice... another front... the boys at redmond (Microsoft) feels that keeping their code secret is the best practice... thank god Linux and the other million open source stuff is changing the landscape... and now Microsoft is following suit (all their development tools are now open) this is a community of people that share and improve upon each other's designs and all are better for it... how did you start? Visiting Alan's site or some of the other original sites on the internet? I am not knocking you, not for an instant we all have our guns we stick to but I understand the time involved with writing up a tutorial when time on everyone's plate is a premium but to deny because of a couple of low life's amongst a community of fine people just is a bitter pill that is all.
Regards, and happy haunting!


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

bignick said:


> I was thinking about starting an add and selling mine for a penny just to get everyones attention on me and then in the description i will state that the how to is straight from Monsterlist and provide the link. That would shut those sellers down in no time.


Heh... already done by Damien on the Halloween-L list.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110300531341


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

PerfessorEvil said:


> Well, sure, if you never built a how-to in the first place, they can't steal it. For anyone who has their stuff stolen already, and then takes down their how-to, the only place to get it is from the CD (or archive.org)


I had some howtos on your site, but I didn't take them down because of cd sellers. I got a new domain and just don't have the time to update or maintain a website.



higginsr said:


> *Dr. Morbius *you do some amazing stuff... there use to be a stigma in hollywood that no fx artist would ever share their secrets... to them it is what kept them in business... thank god that the immortal Dick Smith decided that wasn't the best practice... another front... the boys at redmond (Microsoft) feels that keeping their code secret is the best practice... thank god Linux and the other million open source stuff is changing the landscape... and now Microsoft is following suit (all their development tools are now open) this is a community of people that share and improve upon each other's designs and all are better for it... how did you start? Visiting Alan's site or some of the other original sites on the internet? I am not knocking you, not for an instant we all have our guns we stick to but I understand the time involved with writing up a tutorial when time on everyone's plate is a premium but to deny because of a couple of low life's amongst a community of fine people just is a bitter pill that is all.
> Regards, and happy haunting!


I'll be honest, I got my start years ago searching the net for how-to's, of course. I'm not knocking them, I think they are a great resource. Again, to clarify, TIME is my main reason for not writing up my stuff, but howto thieves just gives me another reason..not a great reason, I admit, but it IS discouraging nevertheless. However if I choose not to make a howto, I sure won't be made to feel guilty about it just because I got my start on some basic howtos years ago. I have my reasons and that's that.


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> I had some howtos on your site, but I didn't take them down because of cd sellers. I got a new domain and just don't have the time to update or maintain a website.
> 
> I'll be honest, I got my start years ago searching the net for how-to's, of course. I'm not knocking them, I think they are a great resource. Again, to clarify, TIME is my main reason for not writing up my stuff, but howto thieves just gives me another reason..not a great reason, I admit, but it IS discouraging nevertheless. However if I choose not to make a howto, I sure won't be made to feel guilty about it just because I got my start on some basic howtos years ago. I have my reasons and that's that.


Heh... trust me, I remember. I STILL want to see that wighead/fan armature how-to back. I could use that myself right about now, and unfortunately, the old robbybuilder page wasn't archived on archive.org


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## Aelwyn (Jul 7, 2008)

PerfessorEvil said:


> Heh... already done by Damien on the Halloween-L list.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110300531341


That's AWESOME! Good for him!!!!!!


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## Uruk-Hai (Nov 4, 2006)

Aelwyn said:


> Go after the seller on E-bay! If he/she is selling something that is an EXACT (or extremely similar) rip off of someone else's tutorial, they can be removed from e-bay, have their seller's account suspended, and even be charged with copyright infringement.
> ]


Problem is we don't really know, or at least can't prove, if it's an exact copy unless one of us buys the CD and then goes through it project by project. That would just be putting more money into the pockets of these rat-bastards!


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> However if I choose not to make a howto, I sure won't be made to feel guilty about it just because I got my start on some basic howtos years ago. I have my reasons and that's that.


If I made you feel quilty I appologize, wasn't my intent as I said, I of all people understand the TIME issue, I have worked along side some of the best prop builders in the industry and what I can say is they were willing to share (yes even Scare Factory for a name drop amongst others) but nothing is earth shattering or something to run out and patent... it all is just different ways of thinking about applying some tried and true methods.. it is those people that think they built a better mousetrap and are fearful that someone else might learn their 'trade secrets' that I don't understand... I find that silly, by sharing everyone benefits and improves on a design, including the originator; this is a cottage industry for heavensake... but NEVER because of time! God knows we all could use another 50 hours in a day! Time is always the enemy 
anyway, hope I clarified and you aren't mad at me!
Cheers!


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## spinjim (Oct 16, 2008)

*E-Bay RATS*

I sent that 1st seller a nasty E-Mail about how stealing the charitable info. of how to build props for personal profit sucks. I know it won't help since if this person had any fiber of ethics he/she/it would not do this in the 1st place. But he/she/it should know we know.

This is the kind of behaviour that spoils America. The lack of CIVILITY! People like this taking advantage of very nice and creative people with good intentions. That goes for the lack of respect that kids have these days stealing props off the lawn. I spend thousands of dollars and countless hours to make artistic props and I am afraid to display them for fear that a few snot nosed theives will take or destroy in seconds what took huge efforts to create.

Anyway.... take a look at "completed items" on this CD and see how much money this seller is raking in! Also is selling other "dishonest" items. Gee ...what a surprise. :xbones:


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## Lilly (Jun 13, 2006)

There is a big difference In letting someone say the prof post a how to on his site..we gave him permission. In that case, we are giving permission to somebody to make the item for themselves. 
The other is stealing someones how to and then copy and sell it.

Somebody taking them without permission of the owner is violataing the copyright laws and selling them is what would effect the damages awarded in court.*

* here is a copyright site you can check out.. and yes it says I can post this..
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html#dmca

rewriting a how to could also be a copyright infringement and or plagerism


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

OK get the lynch mob out because I am going to say something not PC for this forum (I must want to be black-balled... not really, please don’t) I haven't seen the CD so I cannot make any recommendations on it, with that being said... as someone mentioned, projects come and go and sometimes are lost to us forever... if someone took the time and organized all the projects into a tidy database with lets say a nice browser front end, cleaned up the projects in such a way that they all had the same look and feel (giving the proper credit to the owners) I wouldn't have a problem paying them for their time it took to do this as I said before about time, I would love to do that but I don't have the time to do so.... if it took them (hypothetical) 1000 man-hours to organize the data in such a normalized way that made it easy to browse and each project had the same format then yes pay them for their time and I will buy one so I don't have to do it.... Lets say I on occasion dumpster dive or get free items that someone is willing to give me or on craigslist or wherever, if I spend time to clean up the item and turn around and sell it am I being a low life?... just a different context I guess... now if this seller did no work and the projects are as random as they are on the sites, then yes beat her with wooden bats and use her as the next how-to project.


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Lilly said:


> There is a big difference In letting someone say the prof post a how to on his site..we gave him permission. In that case, we are giving permission to somebody to make the item for themselves. Not permission to copy and sell it.
> 
> Rewriting could be considered copyright infringement and or plagerism
> 
> ...


Well, technically speaking, I don't usually ask. 

That said, I pay for HauntProject out of my own pocket, and don't have ads on the page, so I'm actually paying for the privilege of pointing people to your various sites.


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

higginsr said:


> OK get the lynch mob out because I am going to say something not PC for this forum (I must want to be black-balled... not really, please don't) I haven't seen the CD so I cannot make any recommendations on it, with that being said... as someone mentioned, projects come and go and sometimes are lost to us forever... if someone took the time and organized all the projects into a tidy database with lets say a nice browser front end, cleaned up the projects in such a way that they all had the same look and feel (giving the proper credit to the owners) I wouldn't have a problem paying them for their time it took to do this as I said before about time, I would love to do that but I don't have the time to do so.... if it took them (hypothetical) 1000 man-hours to organize the data in such a normalized way that made it easy to browse and each project had the same format then yes pay them for their time and I will buy one so I don't have to do it.... Lets say I on occasion dumpster dive or get free items that someone is willing to give me or on craigslist or wherever, if I spend time to clean up the item and turn around and sell it am I being a low life?... just a different context I guess... now if this seller did no work and the projects are as random as they are on the sites, then yes beat her with wooden bats and use her as the next how-to project.


I've occasionally struggled with a version of this compulsion myself with how-to's that have disappeared from the net. I absolutely hate to see a good how-to die, but its not my intellectual property, so that's a line I don't cross.

The sole exception was when Marty the Night Wench passed away a few years ago, and Propmaster mirrored her Dragon Fire how-to so it could live on if AOL took it down.
http://www.halloweenpropmaster.com/marty_the_night_wench.htm


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

Lilly said:


> There is a big difference In letting someone say the prof post a how to on his site..we gave him permission. In that case, we are giving permission to somebody to make the item for themselves.
> The other is stealing someones how to and then copy and sell it.
> 
> Somebody taking them without permission of the owner is violataing the copyright laws and selling them is what would effect the damages awarded in court.*
> ...


but in reality they aren't how-to sites... this is just an FYI people... they are information only sites, to say this is a how-to and I give you permission to make one based on my design and you injure yourself... then you don't want to be liable... always put the disclaimer up that this is an information only site! Rewriting a tutorial is also hard to prove (unfortunately) because of the common elements that make up each project... we all borrowed the trash can truma and from what i understand (third hand knowledge so take it for what it's worth) the originator of the "trash can truma" wasn't happy about copycats or monster mud recipes or whatever... electric chairs, you name it, it was all rewritten to some degree... anyway... sorry for the soapbox stuff...


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## pyro (Oct 7, 2006)

people trying to take credit for props-stealing how too's---some People suck


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## Lilly (Jun 13, 2006)

I guess that is somewhat true on the FYI..But It is information on a how to.
I do not think you would be liable if someone did hurt themselves because they decided to make something they read about..you didnt ask them to make it. That would be like I burned myself cooking because I was making a recipe I read about.

I guess we should all put disclaimers on our how to's or not do them at all.
I believe the person themselves would have to do this.. Even if the site it is written on is copyrighted that only covers the owner and what he has "inputed on his own site ..
Once an original piece is written publicly it is covered by copywrite laws to a point.
This kind of stuff could get complicated in the legal aspect.

But to have someone take it off a site information or not and then sell them is still a violation whether is is actaully legally copyrighted or not..
you can aslo check out the library of congress on copyright info

I'm sorry this happened to good people, and site owners only trying to help other haunters out.

okay I am not writing anymore on this.


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## Aelwyn (Jul 7, 2008)

"Legal copyright" exists as soon as you write something. There is no legal proceeding or fee to pay to have a copyright for something you have written/drawn/created. A patent (which is what I think everyone is thinking of) is completely different, and has to be registered or trademarked. (I learned this is in Journalism at college).

I posted links to the copyright act in the US. It's easy to find information on copyright laws on the 'net. As someone suggested, we would have to see the CD to see if it IS copyright infringement (I'm pretty sure it is--I see this all the time with CDs of Pagan and Witchcraft information for sale on E-Bay--it's all stolen copyright pieces of information and even graphics designed to be "user friendly"). The person doing it just didn't think anyone would catch it.

The best thing to do is report it to E-Bay (the report button is at the bottom of the auction) and let them determine if it's copyright infringement. They have people who look into those things.


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## Frighteners Entertainment (Jan 24, 2006)

I received this email form the seller. I think it's all good now.

"I am so sorry. I bought from "topcaliber" and they advised was legal to sell. I have taken everything down, I apologize for my confusion.

*- stacylkdl910"*


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## PerfessorEvil (Jul 18, 2007)

Frighteners Entertainment said:


> I received this email form the seller. I think it's all good now.
> 
> "I am so sorry. I bought from "topcaliber" and they advised was legal to sell. I have taken everything down, I apologize for my confusion.
> 
> *- stacylkdl910"*


Oh, man, that's hilarious, because:
A. Topcaliber is the other person doing the selling
and 
B. Tobcaliber gave her bad feedback on the CD.

So basically, she is saying she stole from the thief.


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## Frighteners Entertainment (Jan 24, 2006)

at least the drama is over....for now.


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## Hauntiholik (May 17, 2006)

Wait a minute...
So stacylkdl910 bought a CD from topcaliber and then proceeded to DUPLICATE the CD for distribution? This is getting more illegal by the second. 

This stacey person should be reported for duplicating the CD.


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## WolfbaneManor (Oct 15, 2008)

This kind of crap happens all the time in the prop communities,for example alot of people make paper props from the movies and publish them online for free and then idiots take them and sell them on eBay.


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## Aelwyn (Jul 7, 2008)

Topcalibur and Stacey could be the same person. Or a couple/friends/family selling them together to throw people off the scent of copyright infringement.


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## beelce (Jul 21, 2007)

I have a few how tos published here and there myself, and my intent was to show anyone that is interested...how I did it. I think that it is really low for someone to gather it up and sell it and I want them to be stoped in there tracks.
But what about the guy who made the purchase? He obviously didn't know how to find the info for free on the web, so he was willing to pay someone to get him the info immediately. So in the end it seems that the buyer will be happy with his purchase and not having to do the research to find these projects himself. When he finds out that he could get the same info for free, he may be mad at himself, but it also may spur him on to explore the many haunt sites and further his haunt career all the more.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want someone to profit from my work (unless it's "B"), but I did send my how to out into the vast WWW for any and all to see and use....and guess what....that is just what happened.


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## Brad Green (Jul 29, 2004)

OK, I guess I'll join Higginsr in the unpopular line. Personally, once I throw a "how-to" into the Internet wind, I'm really not concerned how it ends up being used. If someone wants to copy the idea to disc, or to make a dozen copies of the prop and sell them, it really doesn't matter to me. I placed the idea out there for free consumption and as long as someone isn't claiming it as an original idea, I'm not worried about it. I don't have the time or ambition to try to turn any ideas I have into an enterprise, and most of mine are built on the shoulders of someone else's groundwork anyway. Had I a new, original concept that I truly wanted to protect, I'd copyright it and not post a thing. Now granted, it's kind of unseemly to try and sell ideas that can be readily had for free, but had people looked around a bit, they'd have found this info before plunking done their cash. We here reverse engineered the Vortex fog chiller from photos in the instruction sheets, and I don't think anyone complained. Look how many ideas originated in forums such as this one only to end up (in much cheaper forms) in Spirit this year (kicking legs, trash can zombie, etc). It's the risk you take when you free an idea for public consumption, some folk's will naturally try to make a buck on it.


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

Lilly said:


> I guess that is somewhat true on the FYI..But It is information on a how to.
> I do not think you would be liable if someone did hurt themselves because they decided to make something they read about..you didnt ask them to make it. That would be like I burned myself cooking because I was making a recipe I read about.
> 
> I guess we should all put disclaimers on our how to's or not do them at all.
> ...


Lilly, 
Not exactly the same analogy with the cooking; it sounds like a good thought but it isn't exactly how the law works... go pro and see how fast your lawyers tell you to take off your "how-to's" for the very reason I mentioned...I didn't make this stuff up or meant it to be a hypothetical debate... just advise from someone who has been there, nothing more, nothing less.


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

Brad Green said:


> OK, I guess I'll join Higginsr in the unpopular line. Personally, once I throw a "how-to" into the Internet wind, I'm really not concerned how it ends up being used. If someone wants to copy the idea to disc, or to make a dozen copies of the prop and sell them, it really doesn't matter to me. I placed the idea out there for free consumption and as long as someone isn't claiming it as an original idea, I'm not worried about it. I don't have the time or ambition to try to turn any ideas I have into an enterprise, and most of mine are built on the shoulders of someone else's groundwork anyway. Had I a new, original concept that I truly wanted to protect, I'd copyright it and not post a thing. Now granted, it's kind of unseemly to try and sell ideas that can be readily had for free, but had people looked around a bit, they'd have found this info before plunking done their cash. We here reverse engineered the Vortex fog chiller from photos in the instruction sheets, and I don't think anyone complained. Look how many ideas originated in forums such as this one only to end up (in much cheaper forms) in Spirit this year (kicking legs, trash can zombie, etc). It's the risk you take when you free an idea for public consumption, some folk's will naturally try to make a buck on it.


the vortex fog chiller is a great example, someone patented a design yet we have a 54 page thread on how it was made so we can make one exactly like it... great thread, we as members love it and think nothing about the fact we just 'borrowed' property, intellectual or otherwise to save ourselves the expense of buying something someone else designed, trouble shot, and redesigned; patented and trying to make a buck on... I think the saying is "it is hard to pluck the splinter from our neighbor's eye when the log is firmly planted in our own eye"... everything we do is borrowed in the first place, piggy-backed and improved upon from an original concept. Someone tried to make a buck on that, be it what it is, I don't agree with it but yet people are willing to buy it... it is what it is... if it gets people more interested in our obsession and brings more people in to share ideas or make something spooky for the kids to enjoy then it has more than paid for itself for everyone and everyone wins... really it is the purpose of this anyway right? I am not seeing the smoke or the fire on this issue... sorry


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

I see your point as well, higginsr. I think the biggest reason why the Vortex thread got so popular was that it seemed that $450 was a lot to pay for $15-$20 worth of parts and a few hours of semi-skilled labor. The back story on the Vortex indicated that there had been years of R&D work, and the price reflected trying to recoup that effort. After seeing all the variations that we came up with, I'm willing to believe that there was hecka R&D devoted to the Vortex design. BUT, as far as I know, NONE of the haunters involved in that fog chiller design orgy has run out and tried to undercut the Vortex market, or sell a how-to distilled from ideas in the thread.
Mostly, I don't mind sharing - even on a project like the circuit I designed for controlling a wiper motor. There was some real work involved in that project and I owe thanks to several members here that advised me on using some of the components in the circuit. As regards that particular project, I guess I'd be a bit pissed off if someone grabbed the circuit layout and parts list (which I posted here) and tried to make a buck on it. I may even do a how-to for building the circuit later this year - it would give me a good reason to go back and make improvements on the design.
Just curious - has Mark (owner of the Monsterlist) rung in on this? I think a good number of the projects on the CD came from there, but I could be mistaken.
Just my .02.


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## Systematic Chaos (Sep 7, 2008)

I think if I had made a " How to " and someone was burning it and selling it I'd be a little upset too. Coming across all if this great information has helped me out a lot. Doing the searches and googling and learning is part of the fun. If it's not there to learn from then that in turn turns me into just another person buying that cd. 

I don't think anyone wins in this situation other then the one making the cd. I have an easy solution for them as well. Buy their cd. Have all of your favorite " How to's " on one convenient cd and give them a bad rating explaining how it's all free on the net. 

If you wrote a how to then it's yours to do as you will.Just know that you've inspired others while they were there for the reading. I even look at watching a scary movie differently. I'm now noticing the details. The setting so to speak. The special effects, fog, lighting. How the graveyard is set up and looks. I have a new found excitement. I look at everyday household items differently now. lol How could I make that or this into a prop. 

I've always loved horror movies. With all of the information I've been reading and learning it puts me as well as others on the other side of Halloween. 

All this is a moot point now as the auction has been closed and we've lost some how to's. 

How do we avoid this in the future?


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

Systematic Chaos said:


> How do we avoid this in the future?


I don't think we do, unless we keep our technical and artistic knowledge a deep, dark secret, and where's the fun in that? Besides, once you show a prop, in many cases, most haunters will have enough know-how to copy or reverse-engineer the thing anyway.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

Otaku said:


> I don't think we do, unless we keep our technical and artistic knowledge a deep, dark secret, and where's the fun in that? Besides, once you show a prop, in many cases, most haunters will have enough know-how to copy or reverse-engineer the thing anyway.


Yesssss..Very deeep..and veeery darrrrrrk. MWahahaha!:ninja:


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## HibLaGrande (Sep 25, 2005)

higginsr said:


> the vortex fog chiller is a great example, someone patented a design yet we have a 54 page thread on how it was made so we can make one exactly like it... great thread, we as members love it and think nothing about the fact we just 'borrowed' property, intellectual or otherwise to save ourselves the expense of buying something someone else designed, trouble shot, and redesigned; patented and trying to make a buck on... I think the saying is "it is hard to pluck the splinter from our neighbor's eye when the log is firmly planted in our own eye"... everything we do is borrowed in the first place, piggy-backed and improved upon from an original concept. Someone tried to make a buck on that, be it what it is, I don't agree with it but yet people are willing to buy it... it is what it is... if it gets people more interested in our obsession and brings more people in to share ideas or make something spooky for the kids to enjoy then it has more than paid for itself for everyone and everyone wins... really it is the purpose of this anyway right? I am not seeing the smoke or the fire on this issue... sorry


I'm not trying to sell fog chillers on E-bay.


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## corner haunt (May 21, 2008)

*Chill Out*

EVERY BODY JUST CALM DOWN!!! 
I don't really have any thing to add, I just thought this thread needed a tension breaker.  So just chill out, enjoy your Saturday, have a beer, and work on some props. Don't mix the beer and power tools, :zombie: you don't want to be your next prop.


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## Hauntiholik (May 17, 2006)

Systematic Chaos said:


> How do we avoid this in the future?


Use a FREE creative commons license on your work. You can allow others to use your work but not profit from it using a noncommercial creative commons license.

http://creativecommons.org/

http://creativecommons.org/license/


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## SQWIB (Oct 14, 2008)

PerfessorEvil said:


> Uh... isn't that punishing everyone else in the Halloween community, and just incidentally making it easier for people like this to sell their ripped off how-to cds?


I agree, I will still post any ideas and or instructions of my props.


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## fg4432 (Sep 18, 2007)

The people you help outweigh the people who cheat you. Can't go through life changing your ways because of the few. The great people help and don't expect anything in return.


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## debbie5 (Mar 2, 2007)

What does everyone think about someone who posts a how-to for several years, then takes it down, and when contacted about it, the how-to-er replies that they took down the instructions due to someone taking the instructions and making the product & commercially selling it....plus, now the how-to-er now is *also* is selling the product, and wants to keep the instructions secret. The item is now about $100 for $6 worth of parts. I was cursing myself that I hadn't printed off the instructions to begin with. It seems like that is what we need to do now: print 'em off before they disappear.

I can see both sides of this, and think both are viable. No great invention was created singularly by only one person; most springboarded off of a previous imperfect or uncompleted idea or invention. So borrowing from another's previous work or duplicated idea is commonplace. But I think it is just as okay to hold your designs to yourself, as it is to share them. But once they are out there, they are out there. 

d5


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## The_Caretaker (Mar 6, 2007)

Just a thought now that the how-to's were taken down the only way you can get them is to buy the cd. There fore creating a market for the cd. What needs to be done is to point the people to the how-to so they don't need to buy the cd and keep the knowledge flowing


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## Silent Requiem (Feb 17, 2008)

debbie5 said:


> What does everyone think about someone who posts a how-to for several years, then takes it down, and when contacted about it, the how-to-er replies that they took down the instructions due to someone taking the instructions and making the product & commercially selling it....plus, now the how-to-er now is *also* is selling the product, and wants to keep the instructions secret. The item is now about $100 for $6 worth of parts. I was cursing myself that I hadn't printed off the instructions to begin with. It seems like that is what we need to do now: print 'em off before they disappear.
> 
> I can see both sides of this, and think both are viable. No great invention was created singularly by only one person; most springboarded off of a previous imperfect or uncompleted idea or invention. So borrowing from another's previous work or duplicated idea is commonplace. But I think it is just as okay to hold your designs to yourself, as it is to share them. But once they are out there, they are out there.
> 
> d5


i can also see both sides of this: we walk a fine line with building and/or selling our props standing on the shoulders of hundreds of other haunters. here is the difference that crosses the line:

you read a free tutorial. you go out and buy the supplies. you put it all together. you sell it for $100 dollars on ebay. what you did: took free information, baught your own supplies, created your own work of art that took time energy and expense and will always be some what unique. i.e., ok to sell in my book as long as you are not claiming to be the inventor (THE trashcan trauma, not A trashcan trauma).

or

you read a free tutorial. you copy and paste it on a CD, sell it on ebay as your own. no unique change or real effort or expense on your part, just run of the mill leeching. and without any hat tip to the people who spent hours creating the how to or months creating the prop.i.e., low life scum who probably copied someone elses answers on their SATs.


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## pyro (Oct 7, 2006)

well topcaliber sold over 127 copies @ 14.95 each
the other one took there auction off----
this is just as bad as someone taking credit for an awsome prop--like deadspiders a couple yrs ago---scum
i should have bought 1 just to see whats in it----


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## bohica (Nov 4, 2008)

It really sux that people are removing the links due to one bad apple, this forum has fueled my creative interest, as well as my familys interest in halloween haunts.


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## Scottzilla (Jun 13, 2007)

So has anybody on here bought one of the CDs yet to check it out?


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## dflowers2 (Mar 5, 2007)

Ok, so i have been following this thread for some time. I agree it is crappy for someone to take something offered freely on the net and sell it, but lets face it, some people are just too lazy to search for themselves. As for an idea to help thwart this in the future, why don't we all come together and create a standard outline for our how-tos, bundle them up yearly organized by type of props, create a CD that has a copyright notice on it and provide it to our forum for the cost of reproduction cost and a donation to help our forum grow. Just a thought.


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## bourno (Jan 21, 2006)

debbie5 said:


> What does everyone think about someone who posts a how-to for several years, then takes it down, and when contacted about it, the how-to-er replies that they took down the instructions due to someone taking the instructions and making the product & commercially selling it....plus, now the how-to-er now is *also* is selling the product, and wants to keep the instructions secret. The item is now about $100 for $6 worth of parts. I was cursing myself that I hadn't printed off the instructions to begin with. It seems like that is what we need to do now: print 'em off before they disappear.


I prefer WebZip over printing them off 

Or you could try the WayBack Machine http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

As for taking down any personal how-tos, I believe in pro-choice.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

dflowers said:


> Ok, so i have been following this thread for some time. I agree it is crappy for someone to take something offered freely on the net and sell it, but lets face it, some people are just too lazy to search for themselves. As for an idea to help thwart this in the future, why don't we all come together and create a standard outline for our how-tos, bundle them up yearly organized by type of props, create a CD that has a copyright notice on it and provide it to our forum for the cost of reproduction cost and a donation to help our forum grow. Just a thought.


I'm totally turned off doing how-to's nowadays.
But I could be persuaded to help out on a Hauntforum CD.


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## Systematic Chaos (Sep 7, 2008)

I'd be more then happy to purchase one so long as they weren't windows dependable. I use linux
To be able to have which ever project you wanted to make at your fingertips would be priceless. With that being said searching thru all of the posts and learning from everyone is what made this fun. Nothing is fun when it comes too easy. 

I do think however that the whole HOW TO's and sharing as well as helping is a huge part of this forum. The melding of like minded souls is what makes this so workable. The willingness to help each other and share for the sake of Halloween and treating others to our creations was what impressed me the most. 

Seems to me that the whole How To is what draws members and makes this forum worth having for those that put the work into it not to mention the cost of keeping it maintained. 

Take out the How to's and take out the openness of helping others ( How do you help without giving away your tips and tricks? ) and what's left? I mean really, " Look what I did?! " " Nope, not gonna tell ya how I did it. " 

As someone said already, I'm pro chioce too. Your creation your choice and I feel 150% had it been something that I created ( like that's ever gonna happen lol ) I'd be one questioning my how to's and generosity in sharing them with everyone too. 

well, enough senseless rambling. As I said this is a downer. I do however want to thank everyone that has in the past posted a How to. Coming across this forum and reading your " how to's " are the only reason I got back into Halloween again and found a purpose for my garage as I lost the ability to drive and am selling my project car.


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## Scottzilla (Jun 13, 2007)

dflowers said:


> Ok, so i have been following this thread for some time. I agree it is crappy for someone to take something offered freely on the net and sell it, but lets face it, some people are just too lazy to search for themselves. As for an idea to help thwart this in the future, why don't we all come together and create a standard outline for our how-tos, bundle them up yearly organized by type of props, create a CD that has a copyright notice on it and provide it to our forum for the cost of reproduction cost and a donation to help our forum grow. Just a thought.


They're all in HTML format already, which is platform-independent. ...unless you are wanting to standardize the look and feel of them too, kind of like a haunted Instructables.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Dr Morbius said:


> I'm totally turned off doing how-to's nowadays.
> But I could be persuaded to help out on a Hauntforum CD.


Let me try to explain my take on this without creating issues or giving people the wrong impression. I know I am the "Annoying Haunter" and sometimes give the wrong impression here at Hauntforum but I will try not to make anyone mad at me for saying my peace.

First, I would like to say how sad it is that a great haunter such as Dr. Morbius or anyone for that mater, can't show his/her How-Tos on their site for fear of someone stealing them and selling them on Ebay. I understand Dr. Morbius's fear but I don't agree that the best course of action is just not to do anything or by omitting your props off your site. I was also concerned that Dr. Morbius idea of giving his prop designs exclusively to Hauntforum to be sold on CD sounds like a good idea, but I don't think it will fix the problem. What is going to stop Joe Ebay seller for selling that cd when it comes out? If someone wants something bad enough, they will get it. Sorry Dr. Morbius, didn't mean to pick on you but I didn't agree on your solution. Maybe the best idea is to sell your own designs, but again, what going to stop some from buying your designs and selling it to the public?

I think we are all given a taste of what the music, software, DVD, and Cable industry goes thru on a daily basis. When you spend a lot of time on something and someone steals it, it makes a lot of people defensive. And I think a lot of haunters are feeling that now. Some of them will lock up their prop deigns in a lock box, others will just stop doing it all together because they feel incapable of stopping the theft on line. The problem with that is, if we start loosing a lot of Free How-To content off the web, it will force everyone else to buy from Joe Ebay seller. Also keep in mind that a lot of haunters today got their inspiration from a lot of those free on-line prop How-Tos. What is that going to do to the haunt population or the need for their inspiration? Needless to say, what is going to happen to sites such as Monsterlist and Hauntproject when everyone starts taking their How-Tos off their sites to stop the stealing? If it does come to that point; which it could. I just think that we shouldn't let Joe Ebay seller cloud our decision for putting out our How-Tos for everyone to enjoy.


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## Systematic Chaos (Sep 7, 2008)

I think what should happen is we swamp joe ebay with orders and leave - neg feedback, thus ruining his ebay rating/reputation and his desire to steal ideas.


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## rottincorps (Jun 1, 2008)

Wow I love the how toe's....I think its the main reason I check in here everyday. I see what other people are doing and I come up with some improvements. I don't have a plan for Joe eBay....but the neg feed back could be a start..........although we could hunt him down and .....I always could use another corpse in the yard.............


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## Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

isn't this like the 4th person on ebay that has done this


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

It's a tough call sometimes about posting how-to's. A few years back I posted a how-to (I still make it available to anyone who asks) for a simple bush-shaker device. Two years later Gemmy is marketing them at $15 a pop. Sure, it looks better than mine, but the concept is virtually the same. I never posted it on the Monster List, just on the forums, but it got trolled anyway. I guess my view is that if you think you have a marketable idea/design, take the necessary precautions to protect your intellectual property.

It's still difficult to prevent reverse-engineering and knock-offs, though, just look at the Vortex chiller thing. Once it's out there, it's open season. The best you can do is to try to prevent someone else from making a buck on your R&D investment. I've had similar things happen regarding custom software I've written, and had to go to court to get my copyrights enforced. And when considering patents/copyrights, what about the free advice given by other members here and elsewhere? Many times we ask for support and help on a tough problem, and most of the time we get a solution from the collective knowledge and experience of the members. Contributions of this sort are represented as "et. al." on a patent application. Sometimes the "original art" line can get blurry.

I'm still not clear on one thing here - are all or most of the how-to's on this CD no longer available online? Now, if the seller somehow contrived to get the online info taken down in order make the CD the only source, that's a bit of assholery. Compiling the info to make it easier for those who don't want to search online is OK, but taking info out of the public domain to promote sales of your product is not.

Bottom line? Sharing of knowledge is a good thing, but if you are seriously considering turning a buck on your work, CYA.


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## dflowers2 (Mar 5, 2007)

As for the CD idea, I was thinking of making the entire CD html based, so that it would be platform independent. Doing a CD like this would not automatically protect everyone's work, but with there being a copyright notice on the cd as well as each how-to, it would certainly be easier to prove. Also, by providing the how-tos in digital format on the cd, we could add invisible digital watermarks on all of the images, then if someone mad copies of the cds and sold them we could prove that they were in fact copies of our how-tos. We would just get a copy of their cd, read the digital watermark and it would prove it was ours.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

dflowers said:


> As for the CD idea, I was thinking of making the entire CD html based, so that it would be platform independent. Doing a CD like this would not automatically protect everyone's work, but with there being a copyright notice on the cd as well as each how-to, it would certainly be easier to prove. Also, by providing the how-tos in digital format on the cd, we could add invisible digital watermarks on all of the images, then if someone mad copies of the cds and sold them we could prove that they were in fact copies of our how-tos. We would just get a copy of their cd, read the digital watermark and it would prove it was ours.


Please don't take offense but I take it you would get money for selling the cd while the ones that provided the How-tos would get?? And lets say that someone actually does something with the cd. Are you going to legally go after the person responable? That takes money. Even if you could prove it, it would cost alot of cash to make sure they paid for what they did. Not to mention court time etc etc etc. Do you have the money and time for all of this to protect all the haunter's interests?


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

I guess that's another part of this CD thing I don't understand. The seller touts a CD full of how-to's but when one clicks on a Monster List link, you generally go to someone's site where the content actually lives. Did the CD guy download all that content to the CD as well? If so, he's on thin ice as said content may be proprietary.

This question has probably already been asked in this thread.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

DeathTouch said:


> Please don't take offense but I take it you would get money for selling the cd while the ones that provided the How-tos would get?? And lets say that someone actually does something with the cd. Are you going to legally go after the person responable? That takes money. Even if you could prove it, it would cost alot of cash to make sure they paid for what they did. Not to mention court time etc etc etc. Do you have the money and time for all of this to protect all the haunter's interests?


All proceeds would go to Hauntforum...wouldn't it?


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

DeathTouch said:


> Let me try to explain my take on this without creating issues or giving people the wrong impression. I know I am the "Annoying Haunter" and sometimes give the wrong impression here at Hauntforum but I will try not to make anyone mad at me for saying my peace.
> 
> First, I would like to say how sad it is that a great haunter such as Dr. Morbius or anyone for that mater, can't show his/her How-Tos on their site for fear of someone stealing them and selling them on Ebay. I understand Dr. Morbius's fear but I don't agree that the best course of action is just not to do anything or by omitting your props off your site. I was also concerned that Dr. Morbius idea of giving his prop designs exclusively to Hauntforum to be sold on CD sounds like a good idea, but I don't think it will fix the problem. What is going to stop Joe Ebay seller for selling that cd when it comes out? If someone wants something bad enough, they will get it. Sorry Dr. Morbius, didn't mean to pick on you but I didn't agree on your solution. Maybe the best idea is to sell your own designs, but again, what going to stop some from buying your designs and selling it to the public?
> 
> I think we are all given a taste of what the music, software, DVD, and Cable industry goes thru on a daily basis. When you spend a lot of time on something and someone steals it, it makes a lot of people defensive. And I think a lot of haunters are feeling that now. Some of them will lock up their prop deigns in a lock box, others will just stop doing it all together because they feel incapable of stopping the theft on line. The problem with that is, if we start loosing a lot of Free How-To content off the web, it will force everyone else to buy from Joe Ebay seller. Also keep in mind that a lot of haunters today got their inspiration from a lot of those free on-line prop How-Tos. What is that going to do to the haunt population or the need for their inspiration? Needless to say, what is going to happen to sites such as Monsterlist and Hauntproject when everyone starts taking their How-Tos off their sites to stop the stealing? If it does come to that point; which it could. I just think that we shouldn't let Joe Ebay seller cloud our decision for putting out our How-Tos for everyone to enjoy.


It's ok, DT..you can pick on me! LOL!

The major reason, like I said before of my not doing how-to's is the time it takes to do them, then the support for those howtos comes into play too.

I'm aware of the risks of people sealing them, but it's not my main reason. Maybe this winter in the off season I'll come up with something for my props.


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

Dr Morbius said:


> It's ok, DT..you can pick on me! LOL!


We just all love your stuff doctor! Trust us it all comes from an envoyous place


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## pixiescandles (Oct 18, 2007)

I fell victim to ebay last year...thats how I found this board....though I bought a link "Monster List" then after looking through everything I realized I could have found everything for free.


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## higginsr (Oct 4, 2007)

pixiescandles said:


> I fell victim to ebay last year...thats how I found this board....though I bought a link "Monster List" then after looking through everything I realized I could have found everything for free.


And that right there is my point to a 'T'! I am sorry you got wacked by a scam artist, trust me it is also how I dove into this crazy obsession and what I bought wasn't even nearly as cool as a linked monster list... no-no BUT that was also a LONG time ago but the concept was the same...

Problem is I don't regret it and nobody here should either for the purest of reasons... it got you involved! You did not know where to go when you started (I am assuming) so ebay seemed like a good start, it does for a lot of things and millions of people use it as a spring-board type resource for that reason.

Again people, my intention is, yes the people selling this stuff is scumbags at the very least, I won't debate that fact BUT in some way they are providing a service by prolifrating this thing we love so more kids get to experience and enjoy something they never would of (might of) otherwise been able to experience and it helped make another haunter in our community thus keeping halloween and haunting a tradition and something that isn't lost by another holiday.... where is the bad? So someone made a buck on someone elses research... like THAT has never happened before in this country... each and every how-to that you contribute and gets someone else excited / passionate / creative helps mold and make this what it is... 
Novices or newbies don't always know where to start out, that is a fact... they see this a good place (the cd of how-to's in question) then smack themselves later after they are 'in the know' but the point is they get to the point of being 'in the know' if that makes sense...


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## Moon Dog (Oct 3, 2006)

One way to help lock down how tos would be for HauntForum to create a subscriber's area.

In the subscriber's area, there would be a how to section, we would pay $25 a year to be 
a subscriber. 

If you're not a subscriber, you don't get into those areas. If someone does subscribe and get
into those areas, at least they'd have to pay a $25 (or whatever the fee is set to) subscriber
fee.

Could also make it that you have to have at least 100 post to even be eligible for the 
subscriber area.

At least that's how it works on a couple of other forums I belong to.

My two cents worth you understand.


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## billman (May 3, 2006)

Wow, so we go from free to paying for "how to's" again. So we lose and the ebay seller wins again.

I think everyone is taking this way to seriously. If someone wants it bad enough, they will get it..Look at the Record/Movie Companies. They pay millions to try to stop people getting music/movies for free and guess what...it still happens.

Even if you add all these securities, pay for site access, 100posts or more eligibility. The ones that want it bad enough will still get it.

As it was stated before..If you want to sell your prop, then by all means look into patents etc. and don't post "how to's". But even then there will probably be knock-offs.
It happens all the time. Just about every product out there has knock-offs. 

All you'll end up doing is turning legitimate users off and the bad guys win again.


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## dflowers2 (Mar 5, 2007)

Umh, I guess I missed the post by DeathTouch. I believe I plainly stated when I brought up the CD idea that the cost of the CDs would be to recoup materials and then any extra charged would go directly to support the forum. No, I do not have the time and money to take someone to court. I was just providing an idea on how to distribute the how-tos to our forum members and provide a little more defendable means of protection for our how-tos. I work for a fire department and we create training cds monthly for our department, this is why I know how to do the cds and have then means by which to do them, I am sure however that if i started using the fire department's materials, such as CDs, ink, shipping sleeves etc, that they would frown upon it. I can make them windows based as well as html, which would be platform independent. I have made this same offer to Zombie-F in the past with the yearly cds. I certainly apologize if I gave anyone the idea that I was trying to make a buck off of you. I rescind my idea. I am no longer interested in helping discuss options on how to protect How-tos.

Thanks,

Dorian


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

dflowers said:


> Umh, I guess I missed the post by DeathTouch. I believe I plainly stated when I brought up the CD idea that the cost of the CDs would be to recoup materials and then any extra charged would go directly to support the forum. No, I do not have the time and money to take someone to court. I was just providing an idea on how to distribute the how-tos to our forum members and provide a little more defendable means of protection for our how-tos. I work for a fire department and we create training cds monthly for our department, this is why I know how to do the cds and have then means by which to do them, I am sure however that if i started using the fire department's materials, such as CDs, ink, shipping sleeves etc, that they would frown upon it. I can make them windows based as well as html, which would be platform independent. I have made this same offer to Zombie-F in the past with the yearly cds. I certainly apologize if I gave anyone the idea that I was trying to make a buck off of you. I rescind my idea. I am no longer interested in helping discuss options on how to protect How-tos.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dorian


Oh, that wasn't the response I was looking for dflowers. When you rescinded your initial offer to help out with the how-tos after my comment, it makes me feel that you withdrew on account of me. That shouldn't be your only reason to forfeit your How-To cd. If everyone feels that it is better to put it on CD instead of their website then that is a positive thing. But I honestly think you should rethink bailing out.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Dr Morbius said:


> All proceeds would go to Hauntforum...wouldn't it?


Most, but if someone like for example me, sold the Cd on ebay then not all would goto Hauntforum.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

billman said:


> Wow, so we go from free to paying for "how to's" again. So we lose and the ebay seller wins again.
> 
> I think everyone is taking this way to seriously. If someone wants it bad enough, they will get it..Look at the Record/Movie Companies. They pay millions to try to stop people getting music/movies for free and guess what...it still happens.
> 
> ...


I agree and that is what I was trying to get at. We get paranoid of thiefs taking our hard work so we lock it up and then no one gets to see it. Then we force people to have to buy that from Hauntfourm or Haloweenforum. It just doesn't seem right in my book.


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## dflowers2 (Mar 5, 2007)

DT,

I was not trying to say it was your fault, I just did not want anyone to think i was trying make a buck off them. I would be happy to help out. My thought process was that if someone was going to make money off a cd, it should be our forum. The forum could even sell them on Ebay if someone was willing to oversee it. That's what i was getting at.

Dorian


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## blacklightmike (Nov 2, 2008)

I reported the sellers to eBay, with an explanation. 

Dorian, you meant no harm, you were just floating an idea.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Good, I am glad no one took my comments too personal. Maybe one day I will shake my “Annoying Haunter” phase.


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## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

DeathTouch said:


> Good, I am glad no one took my comments too personal. Maybe one day I will shake my "Annoying Haunter" phase.


I find your last post extremely annoying.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Dr Morbius said:


> I find your last post extremely annoying.


I guess I have some room to grow then. LOL


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## Frighteners Entertainment (Jan 24, 2006)

I wasn't annoyed until that last post...way to go DT!


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## dflowers2 (Mar 5, 2007)

No offense taken DT. Sometimes forum posts, like email can be misinterpreted. 

Dorian


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Frighteners Entertainment said:


> I wasn't annoyed until that last post...way to go DT!


Coming from you Jeff, I don't know how to take that.



dflowers said:


> No offense taken DT. Sometimes forum posts, like email can be misinterpreted.
> 
> Dorian


I have experience in that. Sometimes it is funnier or makes sense in my head then when I type it.


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## Frighteners Entertainment (Jan 24, 2006)

DeathTouch said:


> Sometimes it is funnier or makes sense in my head then when I type it.


I've noticed that about you............


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Frighteners Entertainment said:


> I've noticed that about you............


I have noticed that even when I am taking your picture you ignor me! Where is the love my brother?


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## Frighteners Entertainment (Jan 24, 2006)

Nice picture. 
I think I came over after you took the picture and grabbed your butt....you were giggley.

You know, I've lost 35lbs since that picture was taken.


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## HalloweenRick (Nov 25, 2005)

For those who don't know Jeff, he is in the picture on the top right, wearing a Pumpkinhead mask and dressed in cheesecloth.


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## DeathTouch (Sep 6, 2005)

Frighteners Entertainment said:


> Nice picture.
> I think I came over after you took the picture and grabbed your butt....you were giggley.
> 
> You know, I've lost 35lbs since that picture was taken.


Nice try but I like'em big.


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## pixiescandles (Oct 18, 2007)

higginsr said:


> And that right there is my point to a 'T'! I am sorry you got wacked by a scam artist, trust me it is also how I dove into this crazy obsession and what I bought wasn't even nearly as cool as a linked monster list... no-no BUT that was also a LONG time ago but the concept was the same...
> 
> Problem is I don't regret it and nobody here should either for the purest of reasons... it got you involved! You did not know where to go when you started (I am assuming) so ebay seemed like a good start, it does for a lot of things and millions of people use it as a spring-board type resource for that reason.
> 
> ...


I had actually found most of the "how to's" before I bought that link so I contacted the seller and received a refund.

I think the best thing to do is keep an eye out and report someone is selling how to's on ebay....then contact that seller saying that if they do not take the listing off you will report them to ebay. I dont think there is much you can do unless there is a copywrite though. Someone can take an idea and change the wording or maybe use a different building supply ...I had this problem with my candles but because the molds, wax and all the supplies are available to anyone...there isnt anything I could do....IMO if someoe comes up with an idea for a prop..etc...if you want to make sure no one takes and sells it....have it on a blog you need a password for...only allow trusted people to have the password otherwise the internet is an open book and no matter what it is...if someone thinks they can make a buck or two they wont think twice about it!!!!


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## randyaz (May 26, 2006)

Folks...I have said many times that there is very little new creations in haunting, only variations on the theme. Yes, there is some cool stuff like the 3 axis skull, for example, but even that first appeared as a "look what I did" around 4 years ago on the MethodzofMadness site. Skulltronics even had his variation of it posted before he decided to make a buck.

We are notorious for reverse engineering professional props...and we always will. To me, this is not a bad thing because we love to tinker and tinker on the cheap. 

I just think we are all lucky there were those before us such as Scary Terry, Jeff Axworthy, and Doug Ferguson who shared their creations with us. Some even offer how to's even though they sell kits. 

So I say share and share alike...or I'll hack it


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