# Like water off a paper mache ducks back



## Sawtooth Jack

*Okay Paper Mache experts. I tried to find a relevant thread, but couldn't find the answers, so here are my questions:*

1) When waterproofing paper mache, is marine varnish any better than spar varnish? I know marine is more expensive, but wondered if it was worth the extra cost per gallon.

2) Also do you recommend putting on a coat of varnish before you paint as well as after you paint, or is that overkill?


----------



## RoxyBlue

Stolloween is the man with the answers for this one

I don't use marine or spar varnish on my mache projects since they are not expected to be exposed to weather for any length of time. I do use a sealant (not varnish) before painting so the mache won't get soggy, then use a varnish (the kind you get at Michaels or a craft store) after painting to protect the surface.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Wow, for all of my watching bits of my project cave in while adding layers, I didn't think about that happening while painting! You just saved my from some future heartache I'm sure!

I've read quite a bit about technique on Stolloween's blog. Between him and few others I've cobbled together a technique that seems to be working for me so far (fingers crossed). I just figured it would be good to pick a few more brains while I'm still working toward the paint stage.

Thanks!


----------



## TheOneAndOnlyKelly

Dryloc works good too.


----------



## STOLLOWEEN

According to "The Papier Mache Resource" the best sealant for papier mache is marine varnish, after some research I found that marine varnish ran about $90 per gallon...with that said I've never used it. I use spar urethane to seal my props, here's a definition of the product.

_Spar Urethane is a protective clear coat finish that has been specially formulated to use on interior or exterior wood surfaces exposed to water, sunlight, or changes in temperature. The UV blockers contained in Spar Varnish, help to reduce the effects of fading or graying caused by the sun. 
The basic difference between other varnishes and spar, is the ratio of oil to resin. In spar, this ratio is relatively high, which makes for a more flexible finish. It is tougher than polyurethane, making it more resistant to cracking and chipping. This also makes it more durable under dramatic temperature changes
_

Spar Urethane has done a good job protecting my props from water and humidity...note that I do NOT use the water based Spar Urethane...I've found from past experience that water based sealants do not perform as well as the non-water based sealants. Also note that my props are only displayed for several days during the Halloween season, five days is the max and I tend to babysit my props meaning that if it is down pouring I will protect my props either by removing or covering. Last summer I did an experiment and left a papier mache pumpkin outside for over 100 days, a pumpkin coated in Minwax Gallon Helmsman Spar Urethane VOC Semi-Gloss and it came away without any noticeable water damage. The fumes from this product are nasty so be sure to use outside and stay down wind...just a little inhalation can give you a bad headache and sore throat.

Here is a link to the pumpkin experiement:
http://www.stolloween.com/?page_id=4217

Hope this helps.

Scott


----------



## Dixie

Just can't beat that answer, can ya? I love Hauntforum, LOL!


----------



## niblique71

STOLLOWEEN said:


> According to "The Papier Mache Resource" the best sealant for papier mache is marine varnish, after some research I found that marine varnish ran about $90 per gallon...with that said I've never used it. I use spar urethane to seal my props, here's a definition of the product.
> 
> _Spar Urethane is a protective clear coat finish that has been specially formulated to use on interior or exterior wood surfaces exposed to water, sunlight, or changes in temperature. The UV blockers contained in Spar Varnish, help to reduce the effects of fading or graying caused by the sun.
> The basic difference between other varnishes and spar, is the ratio of oil to resin. In spar, this ratio is relatively high, which makes for a more flexible finish. It is tougher than polyurethane, making it more resistant to cracking and chipping. This also makes it more durable under dramatic temperature changes
> _
> 
> Spar Urethane has done a good job protecting my props from water and humidity...note that I do NOT use the water based Spar Urethane...I've found from past experience that water based sealants do not perform as well as the non-water based sealants. Also note that my props are only displayed for several days during the Halloween season, five days is the max and I tend to babysit my props meaning that if it is down pouring I will protect my props either by removing or covering. Last summer I did an experiment and left a papier mache pumpkin outside for over 100 days, a pumpkin coated in Minwax Gallon Helmsman Spar Urethane VOC Semi-Gloss and it came away without any noticeable water damage. The fumes from this product are nasty so be sure to use outside and stay down wind...just a little inhalation can give you a bad headache and sore throat.
> 
> Here is a link to the pumpkin experiement:
> http://www.stolloween.com/?page_id=4217
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Scott


Wow that certainly was an impressive result. Charlie seemed to make it through the weather just fine. My props are outside for at least 30 days and many of them are in wooded areas with leaves etc. I wonder if this sealing technique would also protect mache' projects in direct contact with the ground?? I'm still very skeptical that mine would survive more than a few seasons, but you can't argue with your results.

Thanks for volunteering Charlie for this experiment, he didn't seem to mind.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Thank you Stolloween!

I saw your blog post about "_Charlie_" and was intrigued by the spar urethane on mache (most paper mache folks just said to avoid outside entirely or expect mush). I did see quite a difference in cost (over $40) per gallon between the Spar urethane and the Marine varnish at the hardware stores around here, so it looks like I'll be experimenting with Spar urethane for my props, and thanks for pointing out the oil-based requirement. My store-bought display sat out all month, but the props I'm making for myself this year should only have to live through a week or so of exposure to the elements.

Dixie, you said it! That's why I came out here!

Thanks all for the terrific advice. Looking forward to that final protective coat with some confidence now!


----------



## STOLLOWEEN

I use a variety of techniques so that none of my papier mache pieces sit directly on the ground, if you look at the picture all the pieces that appear to be sitting on the ground are actually on wood pallets that have been painted black and covered with leaves.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Thanks again! I have been thinking about putting foam or something on the bottom of my props to keep the constant wet off their undersides, but haven't devised a plan for that yet, as my props (when built!) will be of varying shapes and sizes. The idea of using a paltform is a great idea, plus it would add to my now limited decor.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Was just watching _American Restoration_ and they mentioned using this product for waterproofing; has anyone here ever heard of, or tried _415 concrete sealer_ to waterproof their paper mache props?


----------



## pensivepumpkin

I would also like to thank Stolloween for the idea of keeping props off the ground. The Charlie experiment held my attention because I am in the rainy Northwest. This will be my first season using the marine varnish for an extended period of display, so I'll keep you guys posted on the result. It is just so wet and cruddy here in October, I feel like it might as well be the hull of a boat. But be warned- it does appear heavier than the other options and caused some unexpected facial deformities.


----------



## halloween71

STOLLOWEEN said:


> I use a variety of techniques so that none of my papier mache pieces sit directly on the ground, if you look at the picture all the pieces that appear to be sitting on the ground are actually on wood pallets that have been painted black and covered with leaves.


Off topic but WOW what a picture.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Nobody with 415 concarete sealer experience?

If I end up trying it out I'll post my findings here, although I won't know how good it is until after halloween!


----------



## RoxyBlue

Sawtooth. I looked up 415 concrete sealer on this website:

http://www.chesterton.com/ENU/Produ...Line=&Category=&ModelID=415&DocumentType=MSDS

According to the MSDS, the product is primarily xylene (50-60% by weight) and ethylbenzene (10-15% by weight). Both solvents pose health and safety hazards, especially during application and drying. The product is flammable and the MSDS states that the containers need to be grounded during pouring. It may be a good sealant for concrete, but may not be the best choice for papier mache, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

RoxyBlue said:


> Sawtooth. I looked up 415 concrete sealer on this website:
> 
> http://www.chesterton.com/ENU/Produ...Line=&Category=&ModelID=415&DocumentType=MSDS
> 
> According to the MSDS, the product is primarily xylene (50-60% by weight) and ethylbenzene (10-15% by weight). Both solvents pose health and safety hazards, especially during application and drying. The product is flammable and the MSDS states that the containers need to be grounded during pouring. It may be a good sealant for concrete, but may not be the best choice for papier mache, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.


Yeah, I went to their website and read the specs after seeing this on TV...carefull with this stuff...which is why I was wondering if there had been any attempts to use it by any one out here. I'm pretty sure I've gotten enough good advice out here to get the results I'm looking for another way! Thanks!


----------



## TheOneAndOnlyKelly

Xylene will mess you up good. I had to use it as a cleaner in my printing class back in college (many moons ago).


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

MacabreRob said:


> Xylene will mess you up good. I had to use it as a cleaner in my printing class back in college (many moons ago).


LOL! Man I hear you! The things we used in print-making that we were never properly warned about..."hey, maybe you should wear gloves and a respirator with that!" So that's why I can't feel my fingertips anymore...:zombie:


----------



## 7500Blizzard

pensivepumpkin said:


> I would also like to thank Stolloween for the idea of keeping props off the ground. The Charlie experiment held my attention because I am in the rainy Northwest. This will be my first season using the marine varnish for an extended period of display, so I'll keep you guys posted on the result. It is just so wet and cruddy here in October, I feel like it might as well be the hull of a boat. But be warned- it does appear heavier than the other options and caused some unexpected facial deformities.


If you are worried about the weight of the finish it can be sprayed fairly easily if you have capabilities. Just thin it a bit with mineral spirits, then spray a real light tack coat then a good coat. PLEASE if you do this do it outside and at a min where a good dust mask but preferably a half mask respirator.


----------



## Daphne

halloween71 said:


> Off topic but WOW what a picture.


Yeah, WOW! I've never seen a picture of your stuff displayed. It looks out of this world!


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Daphne said:


> Yeah, WOW! I've never seen a picture of your stuff displayed. It looks out of this world!


The off-topic "WOW" pic of the amazing yard display is from Stolloween, and represents his talent and hard work! You can find more on his blog-site at the link.


----------



## Sawtooth Jack

Waterproofing this weekend, so I have to ask: Is one coat of spar varnish usually enough for paper mache, or should I go with two? FYI: When dry, I'll be spraying a matte finish over the whole thing as well due to other recommendations.

*EDIT:* Okay, wow, nevermind. one coat is more than enough varnish in my opinion. Lesson number "who knows what" in paper mache for me during the past few months: Varnish greatly reduces the subtleties in the paint scheme. I had something like five layers of dry brushing going on for the project I am working on (it looked awesome!), when actually I think I only needed about two or three. Oh well, everything learned from this time around only goes to make the next project easier!


----------



## Rhea of the Coos

Good to know about the water based urethane not working as well. That's what I've been using. Mur.


----------

