# Player piano question



## deadSusan (Jun 26, 2013)

Apologies in advance if this is not the correct place for this question. I wasn't sure if I should post this here or under the Technology forum.

I would like to construct a player piano and would like to have the paper roller actually function. I think the paper roller would be easier to put together than setting up moving keys. Besides I like the idea of the paper roll starting to play inside a really old, disintegrating piano. 

One idea is to just have one large cylinder (like an oatmeal box) mounted on a rotisserie or wiper motor and have it turn. The other is to have the standard two cylinder set up for a player piano with one long sheet of paper constantly turning. But in order for both to turn the paper I think they would have to be connected by belts on both ends. Or maybe some kind of cog mechanism. Is my thinking correct? And has anyone ever seen anything like this? Either in a piano or other prop?

Thanks so much for your help.


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## HalloweenRick (Nov 25, 2005)

That's a neat idea- I would imagine it could be done with servos and linkages- but if you took of the vent motors and 2 dowels/tubes, I would think you could make the look on the 



. That's a vent motor controlled by a controller (by our very own Halstaff) but you can just use them by plugging the power in as well with a wall wart.


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## deadSusan (Jun 26, 2013)

Thank you for sharing this. I like the fact it's hooked up to batteries.


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## RoxyBlue (Oct 6, 2008)

deadSusan said:


> Apologies in advance if this is not the correct place for this question. I wasn't sure if I should post this here or under the Technology forum.


Could have gone either way, but I think you'll get more help in the Tech section

Hope you work something out because player pianos are cool


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## kentuckyspecialfxdotcom (Oct 20, 2008)

*Creepy Self Playing Piano*

Im not a big fan of those plastic gear motors.
I would go with a wiper motor, you'll get the same speed if wired to a pair of six volt ten amp batteries if not a little slower and they'll last several hours since you have no real work load, after all your just spinning a drum.
Adding a PIR would super quick and would even make the batteries last longer.


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## Troll Wizard (May 3, 2012)

_*Okay one question....are you actually wanting it to play or just look like it is?*_


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

If you had enough tension on the paper loop you should need to drive just one roller. Make sure the bearings allow easy rotation. You may consider using Tyvek instead of paper, although Tyvek is a bit more difficult to punch and print.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

I'll echo Troll Wizard's question about whether this is supposed to be a working/playing "player" piano, or just supposed to look like one.
If it's just supposed to look like one, you might consider scrounging an old tractor feed printer, and either make a loop of the paper, or just have the "player" feed out of one box of paper and into another.

As Otaku noted, you may want to have at least one more roller to keep some tension on the paper. But keep in mind that paper stretches, so the idea of going with to something like Tyvek is a good idea. A small die and a six pack or two of beer would probably allow you to to do a long section of punched paper. You might also look on craig's list, ebay, or your local papers for people who have actual piano player rolls for sale. It may be cheaper to buy one or two than to go through the fight of making your own.


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## deadSusan (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks everyone. And I just want it to look like it's playing.


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## Hippofeet (Nov 26, 2012)

If the paper is just a loop, then you won't need belts on the end, but i am not sure how strong player piano paper is.

I would make a box frame, drive the bottom fixed roller with a wiper motor, and have the top roller ride in a slot in the frame, with some very light spring tension. That would cover any stretch, and maintain tension on the roll.

End rollers on conveyor belt are usually very slightly convex, to keep the belt centered, then there is a tension roller, and a drive roller. Since you wont be able to get convex rollers, I would use a steel roller made from pipe, with some large washers welded on the end. I would pound the washers into something to give them a slight vee, so the paper doesn't contact the washer edge and tear, and that would keep the paper on the roll and centered in the event of a bit of roller misalignment.

It would not be too difficult to setup another roller system that pulled an octagonal or oddly shaped wooden roller across the underside of the hammers, to slack the keys and make it look like it was playing, but it would be a bit repetitive over time, and wouldn't match any sound track you might play. Also, depending on how you moved the roller, it would look like a wave moving across the keys, which would suck. Could maybe get around that, but without a pretty complicated setup it would be tough to get those multiple spaced key movements that look like an actual playing piano.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

I know it may seem like an odd question, but because it won't actually be playing from the paper roll, does the paper roll actually need to be punched?
If you were using a tractor feed dot matrix printer, you could print the "holes" rather than actually having to punch or cut them. How long of a period would a guest have to look at the paper passing over the rollers in your haunt? If it's only for a few seconds, then I wouldn't sweat having to make the holes in an accurate pattern for the music being played.
You could, as suggested, use a spindle with cams to lift the hammers within the piano, but again, unless people have much time to look they wouldn't see them move about much. To me, it would be more effective to make the actual keys move than worry about the hammers within the piano, the keys are much more visible to guests, and without much time to see whether the key movements match the actual music, it would give you the effect you are looking for, I think.


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## Troll Wizard (May 3, 2012)

_*So here's an idea that I had and don't know if it is feasible, it would be great if somehow you could make the piano play and the roll of paper come shooting out of the window when someone comes into the room or gets close to it. Then when they leave it rolls back up again for the next group of people. I don't think the keys generally have to move with the music cause people would be watching the paper come flying out onto the floor.

The key issue would be able to make the roller roll forward and then in reverse to roll it back up again. It would involve using some timers and of course pressure plates to activate the piano. I haven't researched it enough to give you the exact details on building it. It just came to me while reading the other post here.

Just a thought!*_


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## Hippofeet (Nov 26, 2012)

Fontgeek,

I googled some internal images of an upright piano, it just looked easier to manipulate the hammer linkages, than get at the keys themselves. But you may be right, looking at the piano guts, tripping the hammer may not move the key, the key is balanced on a pin, not a hard linkage. Hmph. Looks like you could get at the back of the keys, underneath, and move just the keys, with a cammed roller setup, but the thing is, it looks like that would.... play the piano, lol. Crazy.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

You can put "dampers" on the strings to mute them, or even remove the head of the hammers if you were so inclined, though I think "dampening" or muting the strings would be much easier to do, and the music you WOULD be playing would drown out any noise made by the hammers on the muted strings.
The music rolls are cheap on ebay, and since you wouldn't really care what the music is on the roll, you could go for whatever is the cheapest. Using the pinch rollers from a printer to propel the paper would allow you to make a loop of the paper to go around a few rollers, with a broad section exposed to the viewing public. You could line the back side of the loop with duct tape to reinforce it so that it won't tear or stretch too much.


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## deadSusan (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks so much everyone. All of your thoughts and ideas have given me more things to think about. 
Fontgeek - Thanks so much for the printer idea. Someone in our company sent out an email about an old printer he wants to get rid of. I'll have to see if it has been claimed yet. But you are correct about the moving keys. Maybe that would be better. I'll give a little more thought to what I want to achieve.
TrollWizard - I love the shooting paper idea. But at this point I'm only a beginner with electronics, so it may be something for me to consider down the road.


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