# Jacob's Ladder questions



## Hauntiholik

Hey gang. This year I want to build a jacob's ladder and I have some concerns. 

For those of you who have built ladders before.....

How long did you have your ladder run? Is it something that can be run non-stop for hours or did you switch it on when people were around to see it?

I'll have my ladder set up in the garage so the ozone will dissipate. I'll also surround the rods with wood and plexi and leave the top open. Is there anything I should know about building the enclosure?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Draik41895

all i know is be carefull what you keep around it can easily light something on fire


----------



## bradbaum

I built the enclosure on mine out of plexiglass and concrete backerboard.

I kept the plexiglass as far as way as possible from the arc so it didn't melt.

The enclosure should do two things, enclose the arc to keep the wind from blowing the arc and exstingishing it, and keep curious hands from touching it.

The open top is required if the jacobs ladder is going to run continuosly, the one I built only ran when TOTs where in the room, so I put a top on the enclosure.

The encosure should be non-conbustable, because te arc is a small fire.


----------



## Zombie-F

Hauntiholik said:


> Hey gang. This year I want to build a jacob's ladder and I have some concerns.
> 
> For those of you who have built ladders before.....
> 
> How long did you have your ladder run? Is it something that can be run non-stop for hours or did you switch it on when people were around to see it?
> 
> I'll have my ladder set up in the garage so the ozone will dissipate. I'll also surround the rods with wood and plexi and leave the top open. Is there anything I should know about building the enclosure?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I would build the enclosure out of non-conductive materials (i.e. wood, plastic, anything non-metal). Also, you will need to use nails or screws if the enclosure is wood or needs to be assembled somehow. Just be sure not to drive a nail or screw into the transformer or you may have a "shocking" experience.


----------



## Brad Green

You can run them pretty much non-stop as long as they have proper ventilation. Mine runs from 6pm till close (around 11pm) every Halloween without a hitch. The plexi is open about 1/2 at the base of the electrodes and fully open at the top. Doesn't even really get very hot. 
http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000013ka1.flv


----------



## Zombie-F

Brad Green said:


> You can run them pretty much non-stop as long as they have proper ventilation. Mine runs from 6pm till close (around 11pm) every Halloween without a hitch. The plexi is open about 1/2 at the base of the electrodes and fully open at the top. Doesn't even really get very hot.
> http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1000013ka1.flv


Hehe, I love "Joy to the World" at the very end.

Here's mine in action:


----------



## Draik41895

How do you go about successfully making one?


----------



## Hauntiholik

Draik41895 said:


> How do you go about successfully making one?


Nobody has posted a how-to on the forum yet. I would suggest searching google for a how to for now. There are quite a few out there.

http://members.tripod.com/~Shady_Hollow/Projects/jladder.html

http://hackaday.com/2008/12/30/jacobs-ladder/


----------



## Zombie-F

Haunti, do you have the parts to build the electrical portion of it yet? What kind of a transformer are you going to get for yours?


----------



## Hauntiholik

Nope, I don't have the transformer yet. I'm looking for a 15KV 30mA neon transformer but they are priced out of my budget on ebay right now. I haven't had any luck on craigslist searches either.


----------



## Draik41895

i heard that you could use the bottom portion of a CFL,true?


----------



## bradbaum

Contact your local bars and see if they have any broken neon signs, That is what I used to make mine.

Use steel coat hanger wires to form the jacobs ladder part.


----------



## Zombie-F

Hauntiholik said:


> Nope, I don't have the transformer yet. I'm looking for a 15KV 30mA neon transformer but they are priced out of my budget on ebay right now. I haven't had any luck on craigslist searches either.


Ask at local bars and liquor stores if they have any old broken neon signs around. Odds are, you can snag one from one of those places either free or for real cheap. Usually, it's the glass that winds up broken on those and since you don't need the glass -- just the transformer -- it would suit your needs very well.


----------



## Hauntiholik

Thanks ZF. I hadn't thought of that!

I wonder if finding a non-GFI transformer will be problematic?


----------



## Hauntiholik

I was able to find some scrap 5" od clear plastic pipe yesterday!

ZF, did you have to use plastic spacers to hold the rods in place? I read that you were considering using polyetheretherketone. Did you use it?

Has anyone tried using electric fence insulators in their ladders? I like the look of them but they won't work with the direction I'm going unless it's for appearances only. I'll be using milled brass posts to hold the rods as well as provide connection points for the terminal wires.

Welcoming comments from others.


----------



## DeathTouch

We actually have a Jacobs Ladder here at work. I can normally leave it on for a while.


----------



## DeathTouch

Just in case you were interested. I have the maker of the transformer. I also have a PDF of spec on how to build the JL. I can email those to you if you wish.


----------



## Dark Angel 27

hmmm. not really sure what a 'jacob's ladder' is. i see it but im not sure what the purpose is for one. (yeah, i know i sound like a newbie)


----------



## Hauntiholik

I already picked up a transformer from ebay. It's a 12000V 30 mA transformer that was $35.


----------



## DeathTouch

Dark Angel 27 said:


> hmmm. not really sure what a 'jacob's ladder' is. i see it but im not sure what the purpose is for one. (yeah, i know i sound like a newbie)


Have you ever seen those really old movies with the mad labatory and they show that sparky thing in the background. The one that the spark looks like it is traveling upwards on a wire of sorts. That is a JL.


----------



## DeathTouch

Hauntiholik said:


> I already picked up a transformer from ebay. It's a 12000V 30 mA transformer that was $35.


That should work and good price too.


----------



## Hauntiholik

Dark Angel 27 said:


> hmmm. not really sure what a 'jacob's ladder' is. i see it but im not sure what the purpose is for one. (yeah, i know i sound like a newbie)


Here's a video of one:


----------



## DeathTouch

In case anyone was interested. Here is the dim for the JL. Maybe this might help someone building it some day. Sorry for the size.


----------



## Zombie-F

Hauntiholik said:


> I was able to find some scrap 5" od clear plastic pipe yesterday!
> 
> ZF, did you have to use plastic spacers to hold the rods in place? I read that you were considering using polyetheretherketone. Did you use it?
> 
> Has anyone tried using electric fence insulators in their ladders? I like the look of them but they won't work with the direction I'm going unless it's for appearances only. I'll be using milled brass posts to hold the rods as well as provide connection points for the terminal wires.
> 
> Welcoming comments from others.


I did use a plastic spacer to hold it in place. I (believe) mine are made of a material called rexolite. What I did was I made a flat piece of material and glued it to the "back" side of the rods with epoxy. You must glue it to just one side of the rods to allow the spark to travel up between the rods.

I can snap a few photos this weekend if you like, just be sure to remind me about it because I'm a little scatterbrained these days.


----------



## Hauntiholik

Zombie-F said:


> I can snap a few photos this weekend if you like, just be sure to remind me about it because I'm a little scatterbrained these days.


I'd really appreciate that!


----------



## Hauntiholik

The first neon transformer I got was damaged in shipping. I wanted to test the 2nd one to make sure it wasn't a dud.


----------



## Zombie-F

Nice!


----------



## Zombie-F

Photos of the spacers I made. There are two of them. One is about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom and the second about 2/3 of the way up. The bottom-most one has a larger spacing than the top one.

What I did was I kept adjusting the spacing on the copper tubes until the spark ran all the way up them. Then, I cut v-shaped grooves into the plastic spacers with a dremel that the copper fit into. I cut them so they could be glued to maintain the spacing that made the spark run all the way up.

The key is to make sure when you glue them, you use 5 min epoxy (Hot glue re-melts under the heat of the spark) and make sure the epoxy doesn't get between the two copper tubes. Just get the glue onto the back of the copper tubes and in the v-shaped grooves.

Jacobs Ladder :: Lower Spacer picture by Zombie-F - Photobucket Jacobs Ladder :: Upper Spacer picture by Zombie-F - Photobucket​


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

I'm building one for this year too. I have it up and running but we're still working on the enclosure. It uses a 15,000 volt, 30 amp transformer, high voltage neon hookup wire and two 48" welding rods. I have the spacing pretty tight and the arc goes all the way to the top just about every time.


----------



## Decrepit Desecr8shun

Hauntoholic,u may want 2 check this out:

http://members.tripod.com/~Shady_Hollow/Projects/jladder.html

There are several How to Lists out there but this is Mark Butlers Monster List is one of(if not the)most comprehensive out there!!! Thanx MARK!!! 
BTW,that u in the pic? Sexy!


----------



## Hauntiholik

Video of my jacob's ladder so far. I have to paint the box and add a panel to the front. Only one of the acrylic tubes is shown. The other will be attached soon.


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

Nice! That looks great. You're going to have to find a place for it in the house because it's too nice to pack away for the rest of the year!

How tall are the electrodes?


----------



## Hauntiholik

OpenTrackRacer said:


> How tall are the electrodes?


They are about about 34" tall.


----------



## billman

Excellent job!!

Hey, I was watching the show "the colony" on discovery channel. They made a tesla coil as an ozone generator to purify water. It looks very similar in practice to the Jacob's ladder. His ran off of a 12v battery.

Look at mark 5:27





And here's the rest:


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

That reminds me... I forgot to post the video link for my completed Jacob's Ladder...






I think I'll add some labels and maybe a few indicator lights but other than that it's complete.


----------



## debbie5

What about it?

Mark 5:27:"...When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak..."


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

Uhhhh... I'm pretty sure he meant the five minute and twenty seven second mark of the video where they start talking about the Tesla coil.



debbie5 said:


> What about it?
> 
> Mark 5:27:"...When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak..."


----------



## Zombie-F

Praise to Haunti! That thing is badass!


----------



## fritz42_male

Very nice. And for your next trick?


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

Thanks! My next trick is doing the finishing touches on the mad scientist control panel that goes in the scene with it...


----------



## fritz42_male

Me likey!

You should find some big old valves and wire them up on the top of the box so the heaters are on.

Apparently you can buy Nixie tubes as well so these would look good 'counting down to armageddon'


----------



## Hauntiholik

Your ladder looks awesome OTR. It's puts mine to shame.


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

Thanks again for the kind comments. Hauntiholik, don't knock yours at all. It brings back memories for me... years and years ago I saw a nice Jacob's Ladder like yours at an electronics swap meet. Like yours, it was the kind you'd want to leave on your desk all year long. It was $50 and I couldn't afford it. I've always regretted that and I'm still considering building another one that looks classy like yours to keep around all year round. By the way, I like the C4 and the lift. I have a '99 C5 and love it.

Fritz, what kind of valves are you thinking of? The bottom empty part of the control panel will have a table with stuff on it in front. The top is only inches below the ceiling of my haunted house so I can't use any of the stuff I was going to have sticking up from the top. I do have some electric blue EL wire that will run out of the junction box on the control panel, through the Jacob's Ladder and out to my patient.


----------



## fritz42_male

Here are a couple of links to the kind of thing I was thinking of

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-NOS-RCA-6C8-V...s_R2?hash=item4148da9116&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/6N13S-6AS7G-ECC...in_0?hash=item5ad3608d9e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

and for the Nixie tube counter

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nixie-Tube-Cloc...in_0?hash=item2c50d055df&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Maybe you could have the valves sticking out from the front or inset behind some glass?

However, this would be icing on the icing on the cake - it's already a fantastic job!


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

Ahhh, tubes. Yeah, I already have a few. The problem is that I have no place to put them! Maybe for next year.


----------



## psyko99

Hey OTR, the control panel and the Jacob's Ladder look awesome. Where'd you get the round panel meters? All I can seem to find are the square ones.


----------



## OpenTrackRacer

I found the round meters at local electronic surplus shops. The Weston meters came off eBay. It took some searching but overall finding them was not too bad.


----------



## ActionJax

Hauntiholik said:


> Video of my jacob's ladder so far. I have to paint the box and add a panel to the front. Only one of the acrylic tubes is shown. The other will be attached soon.
> 
> YouTube- Bzzt3


Hello,

I seem to have the same/similar transformer that you do. Do you happen to have any photos of how you connected the electrodes on the top of it to the poles? Also, where did you get the posts on the top and the acrylic tube. I'm looking to build the exact one you have.

Thanks


----------



## Hauntiholik

ActionJax said:


> Hello,
> 
> I seem to have the same/similar transformer that you do. Do you happen to have any photos of how you connected the electrodes on the top of it to the poles? Also, where did you get the posts on the top and the acrylic tube. I'm looking to build the exact one you have.
> 
> Thanks


Hi ActionJax!

The transformer wires inside were cut so I added *heavy* gauge wire with a wire nut to extend the wire out to the brass posts.

The brass posts are handmade. Brass stock was turned on the lathe and then milled to hold the acrylic tube and tightening bolts.
The acrylic tube was purchased as scrap from a local custom acrylic manufacturer.

The posts could have also been made out of acrylic rods but I was going for an older look.


----------



## Hauntiholik

The height of the air gap is important because it determines the speed of the arc traveling up the rods. The more air that can get in, the faster the arc travels.


----------



## ActionJax

Hauntiholik, Thank you so much for posting. The transformer that I have looks just like the one you used. I'm going to have to find something like you have for the copper posts. I'm hoping to some ceramic ones. Can you tell me the gauge of wire you used?


----------



## Hauntiholik

ActionJax said:


> Can you tell me the gauge of wire you used?


Sorry, I don't remember and it's not printed on the wire either. You'll want a wire that can handle the high voltage.


----------



## rcpilot4life

*Jacobs ladder won't stay running*

Hi all. My issue is that my neon light transformer Jacobs ladder is only a 6Kv and won't stay running more then 3 or 4 min.
I have to turn it off then back on for it to run again.
Is there something I can do?
I think I seen something a year ago of someone adding resistors to the bottom of the rods in order to keep their is running. Does this sound like something that I need to do or is there another way?


----------



## MBrennan

I don't have any issues with running mine for long periods of time.

I'm not sure if my transformer is like yours (mine is 15kva) but some newer versions have built in circuit breakers (mine does not), which trip when they get hot. Once allowed to cool, they reset. (I think it's technically a thermocouple, but I'm certainly no expert).

I don't know how difficult (or safe) it is to work around that.

And I just run my electrodes directly from the terminals; that is, with no resistors.

Perhaps someone else here can help...

Good Luck with you ladder - They're a lot fun!


----------



## corey872

I've heard similar stories...newer NSTs have built in protection circuitry,etc. So guessing you have one of the newer models.

I guess you could go probing around inside to see if you can somehow bypass the protection bit. But it's likely potted in some type of compound for safety. ie - "no user serviceable parts inside." If it works immediately after the on/off cycle, you could possibly program a timer to automatically re-set every so often. The downside there is the circuit might need to be tripped to have a successful reset. (Or does it continue working if you give it a quick on/off blip every 2 minutes?)

Lastly, you could look for an older NST - and higher voltage, too! The older ones wouldn't have the protection and should run quite a long time.


----------



## MansionHaunter

Probably what's going on is that the spark gap is too wide, and the thing can't re-ionize after flashing out on the top end. You just need to either play around with the spark gap width until it's close enough to self-ignite but not so close that the spark doesn't travel.

As for resistors: there was a clever guy who came up with what he called the "Gabriel Electrode" (you can find links for that) which involves a resistor divider to create a halfway point for the spark to start itself off, which allows for a wider spark gap. I tried this myself and it works pretty good; I have a 12KV transformer and can keep about a 1" spark gap using this method.

Wire gauge: I used 14 gauge copper wire in one Jacob's Ladder, and used 12 gauge brass rods on another. I like the brass better because it stays rigid, and looks cool.

Good luck with it!


----------



## Batbuddy

Last year my Brother made one with aluminum angle that was 5 ft High. I worked real good and Just used a 12KV neon light transformer. I have I video of it I'll Attach here. He made it so he could adjust the start gap by Turning a bolt that would move the angle metal closer or farther apart as needed to get the right start gap.


----------

