# Realistic Flicker Candle Tip - City Theatrical v. Rosco



## Lord Homicide

Are there other similar types of flicker candle tips like City Theatrical (CT) and Rosco that don't cost so much or that i can order direct?

I bought a Rosco basic module thinking it was exactly what Disney used at the California haunted mansion holiday exterior (nightmare before Christmas overlay). come to find out, they used the CT version ($10 more than Rosco and worth it). The Rosco tip is lame compared to CT and they are both lame because the cost so much for what it is you actually get.

has anyone made something like this? CT has a demo on youtube, Rosco doesn't.


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## HalloweenRick

EFX-TEK has a great kit for chandliers called the WickLED you may want to look at.


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## Otaku

Hmmm. Expensive way to get flicker effects.

I ran across a really nice flickering candle at a garage sale, but they didn't have the charger for it. I found them online here - 
http://www.flamelesscandle.com/flameless_candle/shop.html
I stripped out the board and attached a 4.5VDC source to it. The flicker effect is excellent, way better than anything I've seen so far. I tried to get more info on purchasing the boards only, but the folks at the company are not very helpful; rude, in fact. I'm still searching for a cheap source for the boards.


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> Hmmm. Expensive way to get flicker effects.
> 
> I ran across a really nice flickering candle at a garage sale, but they didn't have the charger for it. I found them online here -
> http://www.flamelesscandle.com/flameless_candle/shop.html
> I stripped out the board and attached a 4.5VDC source to it. The flicker effect is excellent, way better than anything I've seen so far. I tried to get more info on purchasing the boards only, but the folks at the company are not very helpful; rude, in fact. I'm still searching for a cheap source for the boards.


Expensive yes but check this out


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## Otaku

Wow, I gotta admit those are some really impressive candles. My comment about the cost was more about using a Prop-1 and the WickLED units. A Prop-1, 10 of the WickLED's and power supply will set you back almost $100.


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## Lord Homicide

I don't know what the wickLED lights look like or the rig looks like yet - haven't looked it up. I know that, to me, if they look close the CT candles I'd consider buying them. God I love those things - $40-$50 for just the tip, circuit board and lead wires.


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## corey872

That is a pretty neat effect - subtly different than standard flickering, though I'm stuck with a couple of thoughts:

1) If the candle is inside anything...a pumpkin, opaque shade, etc, the effect is totally lost. You might as well just go with a standard flicker LED and/or add the 'amplifier' circuit we've discussed many times.

2) If someone is close enough, they would still know it's not a real candle, yet if they are far away, maybe you could just yse a real candle as there is no danger they could touch it then.

In looking at the overall design, I'm sure a PIC chip could drive the whole thing, but I'd have to wonder how close it could be approximated by using a standard flicker LED as a driver and using appropriate R/C combinations to slightly delay/stagger the turn on/off of 2-3 other LEDs. Enclose ll these LED's in a blob of clear/slightly opaque silicone and I think you'd be pretty close.

The down side is, I'm having a hard time sourcing warm white LEDs right now. I've tried a couple purchases on ebay, but they usually have specs of "2500-3500K" for warm white...well, 3500K is starting to get pretty white - not really candle like. The ones I got seem more like HID lights than candles.

Looking at standard electronics shops, their LEDs seem geared toward lightbulb production, so their warm whites are surface mount 1 watt monsters...not the kind of thing you'd make into the tip of a candle.


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## Lord Homicide

corey872 said:


> 2) If someone is close enough, they would still know it's not a real candle, yet if they are far away, maybe you could just yse a real candle as there is no danger they could touch it then.


True but there are other reasons to not use real candles. Plus the animation on this tip has a drafty upwards flicker which is kind of spooky.


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## Lord Homicide

corey872 said:


> In looking at the overall design, I'm sure a PIC chip could drive the whole thing, but I'd have to wonder how close it could be approximated by using a standard flicker LED as a driver and using appropriate R/C combinations to slightly delay/stagger the turn on/off of 2-3 other LEDs. Enclose ll these LED's in a blob of clear/slightly opaque silicone and I think you'd be pretty close.


What are R/C combinations? I'm not up to speed on some of the lingo on these forums yet heh. Plus I don't know what the PIC chip does


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## corey872

Resistor / capacitor - Basically it would make a small delay between the time power is applied to the LED and the time it actually emits light. So a standard flicker LED could light the bottom LED in the candle tip, there would be a slight delay and a second higher LED would come on, delay, then a third, etc.

The PIC is a microprocessor which can be programmed, so you would just write a simple program to say 'when input is received, light LED1, wait a couple dozen microseconds, light LED2, wait a bit more, light LED3...' You'd probably want to be even a bit more advanced and fade each LED on/off for max effect.

The problem is, the part count / expense starts to get pretty high for each candle tip...just like the ones for purchase. The kicker is to come up with some way to do it on the cheap!

EDIT - AhHa - On checking out the CT website, I see they mention 'incandescent for extreme realism, LED for long life' - so that explains a lot. They're probably using tiny 'grain of wheat' bulbs which would automatically give a nice color and the fade in/fade out effect.

possibly something like http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/7219/CM7219-ND/242927 which is only 1/8" diameter


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## Lord Homicide

corey872;627600
The problem is said:


> so say we have a 3 diode tip. What are the parts and cost?
> - LEDs (3)
> - resistors
> - capacitors
> - PIC chip
> - low voltage wiring
> 
> I think we are onto something!


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## Otaku

Interesting. I think the cost of the PIC would get in the way, but I once set up a nice fade effect using LEDs with a 1N4148 diode and a 100uF cap. It was the prototype design for what evolved into the "Ghosteps" device. Cheap and effective.
The circuit used a 4017 decade counter to sequence the LEDs. You could probably set up 3 LED/wheat grain combinations per chip, and use a different value cap in each assembly to vary the flicker/fade effect. The downside is that a 4017 can have only one output high at a time, but if the cycle ran fast enough it may not matter due to the fading of the wheat grain lamps.
Hmmm...


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## Lord Homicide

Link to picture of the candle lite unlimited basic module, click on Candle Lite Unlimited on the left And look at pic under first table part#3450/3451
http://www.citytheatrical.com/


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> Interesting. I think the cost of the PIC would get in the way, but I once set up a nice fade effect using LEDs with a 1N4148 diode and a 100uF cap. It was the prototype design for what evolved into the "Ghosteps" device. Cheap and effective.
> The circuit used a 4017 decade counter to sequence the LEDs. You could probably set up 3 LED/wheat grain combinations per chip, and use a different value cap in each assembly to vary the flicker/fade effect. The downside is that a 4017 can have only one output high at a time, but if the cycle ran fast enough it may not matter due to the fading of the wheat grain lamps.
> Hmmm...


As I think about it, I think I can build it if I knew the LEDs used and if I could mimic the circuit board. Wonder if I could mock it up on a breadboard?

otaku, I want to make this thing


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## Otaku

I have the necessary parts to prototype this at work. I can probably whomp up something in the next few days.


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## corey872

Will be cool to see this come about.

If I had to do it, I think I'd run those little incandescent lamps...that solves a whole host of problems...

1) I've never seen LED's that small and in the proper color
2) Some of the fade in/fade out is already accounted for
3) Properly placed resistors could make each 'stage' a bit dimmer than the last, more closely mimicking a real candle.

I don't think a PIC is really necessary either - just one way to do it. My best 'theory' would be to have a standard flicker LED drive a transistor, just the way it does in the 'special high intensity tealight' though instead of a high intensity LED, you'd have an array of micro-incandescent bulbs, each with a small capacitor to delay it's on time. You'd probably want bulb 1 most always on, If the flicker LED 'flickers' high for only a short period, maybe bulb 2 comes on and 3 is half bright....if the LED 'flickers' high for a longer period, maybe bulb 1 and 2 are on, then 3 and 4 starts to light.

Obviously, all the power consumption, voltage, timing, capacitance, would have to be worked out.


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## Lord Homicide

I've got to wrap my head around what y'all said heh


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## Otaku

A few years ago, there was a series of posts by Heresjohnny comparing various flicker circuits. Some were pretty flickery, others more subtle, but I think that all were using a single bulb or LED. A real candle was the control, and it barely flickered at all. I guess that if real candles flickered a lot, nobody would have used them as a light source.
Here's the thread:
http://www.hauntforum.com/showthread.php?t=1881&highlight=flicker+circuits
The page with the examples was taken down a long time ago.


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> A few years ago, there was a series of posts by Heresjohnny comparing various flicker circuits. Some were pretty flickery, others more subtle, but I think that all were using a single bulb or LED. A real candle was the control, and it barely flickered at all. I guess that if real candles flickered a lot, nobody would have used them as a light source.
> Here's the thread:
> http://www.hauntforum.com/showthread.php?t=1881&highlight=flicker+circuits
> The page with the examples was taken down a long time ago.


True good candles don't really flicker. A candle will flicker if a room is drafty hence the flicker candle upwards flicker motion


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## corey872

All depends on the wind, I suppose...a few years ago, I was putting out candles at the end of a pre-Halloween trial...popped the lid off one Jack-o lantern and found it had one of my tea lights inside.

Like most anything, there is the junk which doesn't come close, the 'off-the-shelf' stuff which is about 75%, the hacked/modded stuff which gets about 90% and the ultra high end/costly stuff which may get you 95%.

Typically, when I've done candelabras, I put one high intensity flicker tea light just barely down inside a paper 'shade' to simulate the candle. It gives the same flicker effect, but just looks like the wick has burned slightly down inside the wax and you can't see the flame. Then it becomes a pretty simple/cheap circuit...flicker LED $0.20, 2N2222 $0.10, High intensity LED, $0.50...so well under $1.00/candle...















Bonus points if you can pick out the LED which is actually 'on spec' for warm white!


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## Otaku

I say the one on the left. The other two are too white. Nice effect!

Regarding getting the right "warm white" color, it may be easier to dip the LED in something like a translucent nail polish or simply paint it the desired color. I looked for warm white LEDs and most seem to have color values >3000 Kelvins.


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## Lord Homicide

I like this effect. definitely the look of some candles in the haunted mansion.


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> I have the necessary parts to prototype this at work. I can probably whomp up something in the next few days.


what would the diagram you have in mind look like? when i figure out how to post pics, i'll show you where, ideally, i want to put this flicker tip

This is the PVC candle i made from the steps of my other posts regarding aging candles. this will get the flicker tip


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## Otaku

I'm planning to use a LED sequencer board that uses a 4017 driven by a 555 timer. These are available here for a few bucks:
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/AEC/LED-CHASER-KIT/1.html
By combining 2 or 3 of the 4017 outputs as a single flicker tip (LEDs, incandescents or a combo) I think I can get a nice flicker effect. I may need to play with cap/resistor values to control fade and intensities. More to come.


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## Lord Homicide

wouldn't mind rigging this fixture too with these flicker tips.


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## corey872

Otaku said:


> I say the one on the left. The other two are too white. Nice effect!


Good eye. The video washes out some of the color, so the others don't look that white IRL. I've considered something to give them a bit more yellow, but just haven't come up with anything 'ideal' yet.


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> I'm planning to use a LED sequencer board that uses a 4017 driven by a 555 timer. These are available here for a few bucks:
> http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/AEC/LED-CHASER-KIT/1.html
> By combining 2 or 3 of the 4017 outputs as a single flicker tip (LEDs, incandescents or a combo) I think I can get a nice flicker effect. I may need to play with cap/resistor values to control fade and intensities. More to come.


Otaku, Where is all this stuff available? Somewhere like Frys's?


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## Otaku

I checked the Fry's site to see if they sell the LED chaser kits online, but didn't find it. The caps and resistors are available, of course, but I don't yet know which values are needed.


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> I checked the Fry's site to see if they sell the LED chaser kits online, but didn't find it. The caps and resistors are available, of course, but I don't yet know which values are needed.


ok, just checking. i imagine the LED chaser will have to be ordered.


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## The Pod

I've been looking for a good candle flickering solution for a long time as I haven't been happy with the little tea lights. Last year I found and used the WickLED connected to a prop-1 and it was a nice effect, but a bit expensive. This year I stumbled across candle flickering LEDs and started searching for sources. After testing several different ones from a couple vendors, I found these 10mm Candle Flicker LED from Evil Mad Science to be the best. With a little hot glue to form a tip on the LED, and then sand the bottom edges round a bit gave me a nice looking flame look. (not the greatest video quality.... the LEDs actually look better than they appear in this video.)






The one LED on the left is one I got from Electronic Goldmine, its similar to those seen in the standard tea lights and it doesn't compare to the ones from Evil Mad Science. The Evil Mad Science are about twice as bright and have a very nice flickering effect. In the video, on the right I'm using one of the LEDs to drive a PNP transistor and flicker a LED spot light. This will be a great effect for a grave digger or other prop holding a lantern, I can have the spot shining on the prop and flickering with his lantern making it look like the light from the lantern is illuminating him.


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## Lord Homicide

If all else fails with the city theatrical flicker tip copy, i'll check those out. now that i look at it, i'm going for more of an animated LED candle tip than flicker. the flicker effect just happens to be part of it. we'll see what Otaku comes up with


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## Lord Homicide

Pod, the LED is complete with the flicker logic built in? I just had an idea where to use those


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## Troll Wizard

You show a light fixture in a picture on page 3 I believe, and the light bulbs in the picture showing you can get at any good lighting store. The lights look like that and flicker and can run off of regular house current. I have purchased these and are using them currently in my haunts at my home. Now if they sell them in an LED now I couldn't tell you. You would have to go and check out your local lighting store. I also use them during Christmas for lantern decor that I have around the house. They usually come in a set of 2 in a package. I could not tell you cost because its always different wherever you live. And of course there is always the fact that what your doing is probably more elaborate than what I am doing at my own haunt. If all else fails you could always talk to an electrician or if you know of someone who works on electrical lighting.


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## Lord Homicide

Troll, you are talking about the flicker bulbs that produce an orange glow right?


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## The Pod

Lord Homicide said:


> Pod, the LED is complete with the flicker logic built in? I just had an idea where to use those


Yes, that's what I thought was so cool about these. No complicated electronics or programming, all I needed to do was wire up a resistor and connect them to my power source and I had a very realistic random flickering candle effect. Similar to that you see with the tea lights, only these LEDs were about twice to 3 times as bright.


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## Lord Homicide

The Pod said:


> Yes, that's what I thought was so cool about these. No complicated electronics or programming, all I needed to do was wire up a resistor and connect them to my power source and I had a very realistic random flickering candle effect. Similar to that you see with the tea lights, only these LEDs were about twice to 3 times as bright.


hey first off, sorry if my response earlier to you sounded harsh. i realize now what exactly i'm chasing after with this light project. i guess there are two types of fake candle light - ambient flicker candle light (what you don't directly see) and direct animated candle light (what you would directly see)

I will definitely order some for my pumpkin patch. it would be so much easier to wire all these to a single power source than having to fuss with all the clunky tealights. you, my friend, are a life saver.


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## Lord Homicide

corey872 said:


> That is a pretty neat effect - subtly different than standard flickering, though I'm stuck with a couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1) If the candle is inside anything...a pumpkin, opaque shade, etc, the effect is totally lost. You might as well just go with a standard flicker LED and/or add the 'amplifier' circuit we've discussed many times.


Corey, I just saw this... The tips will be exposed hence the route I'm taking with these


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## Otaku

I haven't forgotten that I want to try a modded chaser circuit with 3 LEDs to get a flicker effect. Life has been busy, but I should be able to get to it this week.


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## Lord Homicide

Otaku said:


> I haven't forgotten that I want to try a modded chaser circuit with 3 LEDs to get a flicker effect. Life has been busy, but I should be able to get to it this week.


That's alright man, I understand. I sent you a pic of the actual candle tip kit to show you more of the guts for this thing. I really appreciate the help on it


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## corey872

Will be neat to see how this turns out. I've been kicking around a few circuits, too. So far, the simplest solution I have come up with is to salvage the flicker LED / transistor driver I use for my high output tea lights and use that as an input to an LM3914 display driver.

"In theory", this could convert the bright/dim pulses from the LED to a vertical 'pulsing string of lights'. This chip and it's -15 and -16 cousins are used for VU meters and signal meter displays. So it is practically making the 'flicker' type candle already.


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## corey872

Had to fire up the rotoscope movie picture machine for quick shot of my LM3914 driver attempt for the flicker candle.






Obviously this is a demo. If you were trying to mimic a real candle it would need to be packaged very nicely and the LEDs / bulbs made into an acceptable 'flame tip'. The main thing I wanted to show was the LEDs 'lighting in sequence' and the drive from a single flicker LED. The rotoscope really doesn't do it justice to setting here actually watching it, but hopefully, you get some idea. I went fairly fast to save time, but to clarify things:

One resistor is used to program the scale. In this case, it's 0-5V over 10 LEDs, so about 0.5V for each LED. Ie if the 'sense' input of the chip sees 2V, 4 LEDs are lit. If it sees 3.5V, 7 LEDs are lit. The single flickering LED is used to drive these voltage changes in a capacitor which has the effect of smoothing out the 'digital' pulses of the flicker LED.

A second resistor is used to program the current through the LEDs. It is truly 'programming' each individual LED to a set current, not a current limiting resistor.

In this instance a simple current limiting resistor was used for the flicker LED and everything was driven from one 9VDC power supply. Ideally, if there is a large difference between chip drive voltage and LED voltage, a second V source could be used to drive the LEDs, or a dropping resistor could be installed in the supply to the LEDs. The power from the difference in LED supply and LED run is dissipated in the 3914. So it's best to not have these wildly out of range.

Most of the values can be tweaked to provide more/less brightness, more/less 'dancing', make the display in a narrow band - say you only want 5 LEDs, etc.

The chip is shown in 'bar' mode which lights LEDs sequentially from the bottom. It also has a 'dot' mode which runs two LEDs up the column. One thought for this would be a person might be able to add resistors to give the LEDs some current and hold them in a dim state..they could even be made brighter at the base and dimmer toward the top of the display. Then the driver - in dot mode - would 'flicker' the bright 2 LED dot up and down the column.

This could also be a pretty simple driver for a 'lightning bolt' as the input could be triggered momentarily which would build voltage in the capacitor and cascade the outputs to 'on' state. The outputs can also drive a transistor and the chips can be linked to 100 outputs, so could use a single trigger to cascade super bright LEDs, or a chain of flash tubes, etc.

Overall, a pretty effective, simple and relatively cheap circuit. I don't know that I will develop it much more as it doesn't fit in with most of my needs. Though if you have questions, just let me know. My ultimate goal is a giant VU meter for my phonograph!

Edit:[2] Guess my youtube video link is now parsing...which seems to have broken all the image links, so I'll move those to a new post below.


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## Lord Homicide

Great videos gentlemen - thank yall very much. Now let's see what Okatu comes up with!

*@Corey872*: Thank you for doing this, I really appreciate your thoroughness. I will definitely get out to get the parts and start tinkering with it. Every now and then I've been thinking of a way to construct the tip. Obviously I'd start off with the cluster of LEDs with long lead wires then use some type of translucent silicon caulk. Since I don't have an injection mold for the tip I'll have to southern engineer something - maybe sculpt a tip out of clay, create a mold then inject silicon out of that (thinking out loud here). I don't know if I'd be able to form a tip with semi dried caulk with my bare hands.

*@madmax*: Good video. What are the components?


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## corey872

Images which were in the post above:

Datasheet:
https://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3914.pdf

Original LM3914 schematic:









Schematic roughly as I built it:
My values were: Input 9V, R1 1.2K, R2 3.8K, R3 shorted, R4 3.8K, R5 940, R6 none, C1 100uF, C2 none
R1 and R2 are calculated, the rest were just determined by what 'looked good' on the LED string









PCB if you want to build a board









Top Silkscreen:









Complete:


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