# Grandinroad's supplier steals ideas



## diggerc (Feb 22, 2006)

Y'all are familiar with Pumpkinrot and his work.
And his blog here http://pumpkinrot.blogspot.com/2012/08/grandin-theft.html
Sheds light on Halloween artiest work being stolen for profit specifically Grandinroad's supplier.


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## Dixie (Feb 18, 2009)

Yeah, not that I have bought from them in the past, but I am personally boycotting Grandin Road for failure to rectify the situation with their suppliers knocking off our stuff.


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## RoxyBlue (Oct 6, 2008)

This is one of the reasons I always make goofy looking props. That way, no one wants to steal the designs

There are some very thoughtful discussions on that blog about plagiarism and how we credit (or not) those who inspire us. To look at these specific examples another way, considering how quickly pictures can be spread to different sites on the internet, it's entirely possible even the manufacturer may not have known the source of the designs considered stolen. Think of how often we see a picture of something we like, send it off to someone else to enjoy, who then sends it somewhere else _ad infinitum_. It doesn't take long for the original source information to disappear.

Personally, when I want to make a new prop, I do spend time surfing the 'net for ideas and pictures that can serve as inspiration. They key word, of course, is "inspiration". I make a folder on my computer with whatever I've collected in my search, and, after viewing them for a while, they somehow meld in my head into something new - inspired but not copied.

Crediting your source of inspiration is always courteous and correct when you know who it was. Profiting off someone else's design without offering some type of compensation is not kosher, but I expect it happens often and can certainly happen unwittingly.


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## Zombie-F (Apr 12, 2004)

I refuse to buy from them. In my opinion, they clearly rip off the work of hard-working home haunters by producing items that are nearly-identical:

http://pumpkinrot.blogspot.com/2012/08/grandin-theft.html
http://shellhawksnest.blogspot.com/2012/08/grandin-theft-again.html


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## diggerc (Feb 22, 2006)

I had tried to leave a comment on Pumpkinrot's blog as to how similar the corpse couple resembled Disney's Haunted Mansion characters, Specifically Ezra the Hitchhicking Ghost and a popup ghost head but I cant get it to work.
http://davelandweb.com/hauntedmansion/images/hitchhiking/HM_Disney_Cemetery4_detail.jpg and
http://www.doombuggies.com/media/misc/family_portrait_5x7.pdf


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## Pumpkin5 (Aug 8, 2010)

:jol:Hhhhmmmm...I thought imitation was the most sincere form of flattery....
I buy from Grandinroad, and although they have neat props, you always have to 'tweak' them some. I think their faceless spectre looks no where near the quality of Pumpkinrot's (he is beyond what anyone else is in the talent department, what Stolloween is to Mache, Pumpkinrot is to Halloween).....but it is bad if they are making money using his idea....but then on some level aren't we all 'borrowing' from each other? I mean who do we credit for the concept of the Grim Reaper? Who first sketched that mad creation? I have my version as I am sure most haunters do. A ghost is a ghost is a ghost...if I make one and 10 other people make a ghost...how do we know that two of those ghosts won't look like twins? (you know how ghost dad's like to run around...ha ha...)
Just saying people....we may be splitting hairs a bit......


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## debbie5 (Mar 2, 2007)

Technically, if you make something in a diff medium or change colorations, it's not artistic plagiarism (think Andy Warhol's Campbell's soup can lithos) . ETHICALLY, it is plagiarism, in my opinion. I'd be quite mad if someone ripped off my design, and be further pissed that BIG BROTHER really has nothing in place to protect your creative intellectual property.


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## debbie5 (Mar 2, 2007)

And I find it baffling that there is NO LAWYER amongst the Halloween haunter community who would be willing to fight this fight pro bono. Or even Sonny Bono, rest in piece....

Patenting or copyrighting your creations takes money up front, and then MORE money to fight for your work if it IS stolen...so basically, the poor artist loses in the end, and these huge manufacturers know this, so they steal without thought.


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## dudeamis (Oct 16, 2011)

most upsetting


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## psyko99 (Jan 11, 2008)

debbie5 said:


> Patenting or copyrighting your creations takes money up front, and then MORE money to fight for your work if it IS stolen...so basically, the poor artist loses in the end, and these huge manufacturers know this, so they steal without thought.


I think you hit the nail on the head.

(Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV)
Technically, the artwork is Copyrighted once it is created. The artist has the option to register the copyright. There are also different types of copyrights to look at. More info is at http://www.copyright.gov/

The manufactures and the seller have a boat load of money. Even if an artist does register the copyright of their work, they would be outspent if they go to court. The only real impact that can be made is if enough people call the seller out and say "I'm not going to do business with you anymore." Then places like GR may begin actually having an conscience.

But I'm sure there's more people out there who buy these products and don't even think about the artist who created the concept. So these retailers just shrug complaints like this off an bring in the $$$.


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## Lord Homicide (May 11, 2012)

Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but why should GR be held accountable? Aren't they a distributor? I know it's the point and it's crazy. Sadly you have the protect the hell out of your work.


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## Hauntiholik (May 17, 2006)

Yes LH, GR is the distributor not the supplier in this case.


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## Spooky1 (Aug 25, 2008)

I just did a Google search for faceless reaper with lantern and found a couple more similar props sold on a number of websites. As to the pictures found on the internet I have no idea as to which came first. Many of the props we make are built upon age old imagery. Just how much do we need to change them, to make it an original and potentially copyrightable pieces? It is disturbing, when you see a retailer sell items year after year that seem to be reproductions of haunters works, posted on forums like this one. At the same time we bemoan the cheap or cheesy looking props we see in the stores and wish they looked more like the works of some of the gifted prop makers we see here. 

The stores don't make the props, and once they order them from a manufacturer and pay for them, as well as pay for advertising, I doubt they'd be willing to not sell them. As nice as it would be for the manufacturers to track down the original creators of such props, in reality we will always be used as a free R&D department for such businesses.


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## BioHazardCustoms (Aug 5, 2009)

Time and date stamps can be altered using basic photo editing programs, so they're no longer admissible in court. The only way we can protect our intellectual property (which is what each prop we build would be considered) is to never share the photos on the internet. This kind of defeats the purpose, because we like to show our friends the work we have done. It all comes down to a choice. Do we want to share our talents with people, or do we want to hoard our knowledge away from the prying eyes of internet plagiarists? Copy cats will always abound in this world, because some people are not creative, and would rather steal 10 ideas as opposed to working to develop 1. I personally don't shop with GR anyway, but spirit has also been known to do the same thing (I can't find the link here but Gemmy ripped off someone's spirit phone).

The solution is not to stop sharing ideas, but to start boycotting suppliers *AND* distributors of disputed works. If we start making sure that these people know "We won't buy something that you stole from someone else" they'll start working on developing their own ideas. The same thing happened a few years ago with a DVD of ideas stolen from the forums, then before that with Poison Props "Perma Blood" THAT recipe can still be found floating around the net. I personally have developed a liking for the Allen Hopps version of perma blood after that fiasco. No one has stood up to these companies stealing their ideas and using them without permission or payment.

I personally applaud Pumpkinrot and Stolloween for calling the companies out. If no one ever stands up to them, they'll continue to do it, until people stop posting pics of the things that they have built, and then the Halloween industry and us as home haunters will suffer because of thieves.


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## debbie5 (Mar 2, 2007)

I hear that Death is pissed about people using his image, and is going to come bring justice to the offenders....eventually.


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## Lord Homicide (May 11, 2012)

debbie5 said:


> I hear that Death is pissed about people using his image, and is going to come bring justice to the offenders....eventually.


Now that's hilarious


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## Lord Homicide (May 11, 2012)

Spooky1 said:


> As nice as it would be for the manufacturers to track down the original creators of such props, in reality we will always be used as a free R&D department for such businesses.


Good luck getting justice in China


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## BioHazardCustoms (Aug 5, 2009)

Lord Homicide said:


> Good luck getting justice in China


Didn't you know? In China, prop ideas steal you.


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## jaege (Aug 23, 2009)

While it is annoying, (of course I can say that since no one has ever stolen one of my ideas) I do not know that it is worth getting riled about. As others have said, we all "steal" from each other. I have numerous props that folks here would recognize as distant cousins. (to their props, not to them personally. That sounded a bit like grave robbing, heh.)

I would like to think if I came up with such a cool idea that some company copied and marketed it, that I would just be flattered. We do post our stuff online so that others may enjoy and copy it after all. If Grandin Road has some copied work, then a lot of other people are getting to enjoy that design. Do not think of the greedy company, but the end users who will enjoy the props. It does successfully spread Halloween cheer after all.


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## scareme (Aug 29, 2006)

Oh great, soon we'll see dancing skeleton Elmos all over the web. Just remember, you saw him here first.


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## Troll Wizard (May 3, 2012)

Tough one to answer. Usually in the eyes of the patient office, if you take a product and improve on that product to make it better, then it becomes a new product. In this case where they do look somewhat alike, pretty much all they have to do is change one or two things and it's considered a new item. The cost involved in going after these manufacturers is out of this world. 

Plus the stress involved to one's self, well it just wouldn't be worth it. It's kind of like, case in point . . . Santa Clause! How do you put a patent on a world icon? The only one that I know of that has copyrights on Santa is Coke a Cola, with their Sandburg (hope I spelled his name right) Santa paintings. They protect those things like there is no tomorrow! 

I know we at one time or another have had an idea or design and think that would really work, then next month it's on TV as a Seen on TV ad! And we think, hey I came up with that idea, but never acted on it.

I do feel sad and at a loss for those who have seen their ideas maybe stolen and used by someone else for profit. But you do have the right to go after the manufacture who has maybe taken these ideas from someone else like yourselves, this is still America, and it's your right! :jol:


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## niblique71 (Dec 2, 2009)

If I remember it correctly Otaku had a shaking shrub prop stolen by one of the big companies. I'm waiting to see a version of fester out there. 

It's just a shame that there isn't any consideration for an original design, and some compensation for its creator. Big companies rely on us to be lazy and uninformed for them to survive and we all let them take advantage of us. I heard recently that Wal Mart is now going to have one-stop medical services in some stores now. So now you can get a vaccine when you buy the junk that they sell.

I am Glad that PR and Stolloween are at least bringing this thievery to light. I'm sure that more stories will surface in time.


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## RoxyBlue (Oct 6, 2008)

It also strikes me that the cloaked ghost looks a lot like a ring wraith (minus the festive bow I added):










Peter Jackson has more money than most home haunters. Maybe he can go after the copycats


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## Great Pumpkin (Feb 21, 2011)

WOW! I just can't believe this! Unreal


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

A major problem, and kind of a question here, is the fact that almost anything we or they have created has been done or illustrated before.
Our grim reapers are pretty much based upon Illustrations by Dore and folks of that era, skeletal forms, ghosts, etc., were often depicted in books from centuries past, then modern versions were created for movies, TV shows, and amusement parks like Disneyland that then get copied out by others. I'm the last guy to say that copying out figures or gags is okay, but you need to be realistic and honest. How many haunters here have copied out props, scenes, or gags from other places, even if you couldn't reproduce it perfectly (though not for lack of effort)?
I know I have, I was intrigued by Disneyland's Haunted Mansion scenes and props, and those from old horror movies to create the same effects, or as close as I could get to them.


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## Acid PopTart (Oct 29, 2007)

psyko99 said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> (Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV)
> Technically, the artwork is Copyrighted once it is created. The artist has the option to register the copyright. There are also different types of copyrights to look at. More info is at http://www.copyright.gov/
> ...


Very true.

Technically yes the copyright does exist as soon as it's created, but here's the thing, you need to register the copyright so you can have some proof date wise of who created what first. (Or whom copyrighted it first.) And then be prepared to defend the copyright. Big companies have big lawyers, I've already gone up against one with my lawyer concerning my character VooDoo Baby. I already have a lawsuit filed on a separate case for another who stole my work, going after this big name clothing company was going to be tough. They denied our claim, said there was no similarity, yet agreed to take the item off the website within 30 days. I didn't have the money to push, not when they got a lot more money to push back. We got lucky with that case,we agrred to the 30 days, they complied and we were back to work on our original case. They are attorneys out there who will take cases on a contingency basis, but you still will have to front filing fees which can get costly. Cases over intellectual property are complicated I've learned. Look below, my photograph of myself as VooDoo Baby is on the left, on the right is a guy claiming he painted this image and that it's his own creation. This blew up huge on the comic book scene, if it wasn't for so many professionals whom I've worked with and the tons of fans that came to my defense, I wouldn't have found the attorney that I did nor been able to raise money for my legal fees. It looks like an open and shut case to me, but as I've discovered, we have to build the strongest case possible before we even file the first complaint.









Now with as much as VooDoo Baby has been ripped off, I've been advised to purchase a trademark which would have allowed us to really push back with that one clothing company, but most importantly will save us in the future and create a more solid case.

There is using stuff as inspiration and then there are plenty who are ripping off and it's happening everywhere. My friend had her clothing designs that were worn by some reality tv stars, and now a clothing company whom those very same stars represent presently came out with near identical clothing to the stuff my friend designed. But those big companies, and some definitely know they are ripping off, feel they can sell enough before being busted to justify the risk or feel the original source is too small to fight them and their attorney can lose the little guy in so much paperwork they will give up, if they bother to try in the first place.



jaege said:


> While it is annoying, (of course I can say that since no one has ever stolen one of my ideas) I do not know that it is worth getting riled about. As others have said, we all "steal" from each other. I have numerous props that folks here would recognize as distant cousins. (to their props, not to them personally. That sounded a bit like grave robbing, heh.)
> 
> I would like to think if I came up with such a cool idea that some company copied and marketed it, that I would just be flattered. We do post our stuff online so that others may enjoy and copy it after all. If Grandin Road has some copied work, then a lot of other people are getting to enjoy that design. Do not think of the greedy company, but the end users who will enjoy the props. It does successfully spread Halloween cheer after all.


You might feel a little bit differently if it happened to you. Or you might not. I can only speak through my personal experience, I make my living off my face, my look, I get paid to pose for artists and now I have an "artist" whom I've never worked with, who's stolen not just one of my photos, but four, photoshopping them badly and claiming them as original works.

If wrongdoing has occurred, people should speak up, bring notice, send emails and yes boycotting is good but the companies need to know you're boycotting. We're not exactly their target audience. Getting notice on blogs in this day and age is fantastic, you never know who will pickup on it next, hopefully a news source because that could get those who were ripped off an attorney who might work on contigency or some delayed fee schedule. The whole hoopla about my ripped off images blew up huge, and then a news source interviewed the rip off artist where he basically admitted to knowing he ripped me off and bragged about it. That sent me off and then suddenly they were interviewing me and that's how my attorney found me. Granted I've been trapped in lawsuit hell for over a year, but comes with the territory.


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## jaege (Aug 23, 2009)

Acid,

Your case is very different, since 1. it is your livelihood, and 2. its about your face and original artwork.

Most haunters are making props as part of a hobby, and most of us base our props off other people's work which in turn is based upon archaic images and themes dating back to ancient religions, beliefs and superstitions. A hooded ghost-like image is hardly original, and has not been original in centuries. A photograph of yourself, in make-up and posed IS original artwork. I cannot even see where there is an argument. Unfortunately it is a sad truth, the law is not made for the people it is made for the rich. The rest of us have to get by as best we can.

By the way, you are HOT in that photo. I would find for you, if I was on the jury. Even if you were guilty:jol:


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## Acid PopTart (Oct 29, 2007)

jaege said:


> Acid,
> 
> Your case is very different, since 1. it is your livelihood, and 2. its about your face and original artwork.
> 
> ...


Hahahahaha!!! Thank you for the compliment. Fingers crossed the judge feels the same way!

And yes, it's two very different cases. I can only give my personal experience for insight with something similar and large companies. That and people think copyrights are ironclad and truth is, you can file for a copyright for $35 and it's a good first step shall we say.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

I wish you the best of luck with this case.
If you had a photographer take the original photo, get a signed statement to that fact that includes the date, time, and location, and that of anyone else who was there at the time.
Your case is not one of someone stealing a prop, per se, but of copyright infringement and fraud. As you already stated his work is just a Photoshopped version of your photo, and a poorly worked piece at that.

I wish I'd met someone like you 30 years ago myself.


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## Acid PopTart (Oct 29, 2007)

fontgeek said:


> I wish you the best of luck with this case.
> If you had a photographer take the original photo, get a signed statement to that fact that includes the date, time, and location, and that of anyone else who was there at the time.
> Your case is not one of someone stealing a prop, per se, but of copyright infringement and fraud. As you already stated his work is just a Photoshopped version of your photo, and a poorly worked piece at that.


Thank you, I've certainly learned a lot throughout this case and have discovered I will need to keep an entertainment attorney on retainer..... but I will be ecstatic once this case is settled.

Thank you for the advice, luckily I do have signed releases for my work of people involved and this particular photo was published in a magazine. The character was first shown in video about 6 years ago. We're prepared to get sworn statements if need be.



fontgeek said:


> I wish I'd met someone like you 30 years ago myself.


You flattered me greatly! Thank you.


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## Spooky1 (Aug 25, 2008)

Acid, good luck on the lawsuit. 

Most folks here are flattered when another haunter uses their work as inspiration or makes a version of their prop. That's why we post How-tos. It's an entirely different story when someone manufactures a copy of a prop created by someone else to profit from another's work.


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## BioHazardCustoms (Aug 5, 2009)

That is a valid point, Spooky. I don't care who takes something I've built and uses it for their own haunt. But if you took something I sweated over and worked endless sleepless nights on and copy it for sale, I better get better than half of the money. It seems only fair that if we do the R&D we should get some of the profits.


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## STOLLOWEEN (Apr 13, 2008)

BioHazardCustoms said:


> I personally applaud Pumpkinrot and Stolloween for calling the companies out. If no one ever stands up to them, they'll continue to do it, until people stop posting pics of the things that they have built, and then the Halloween industry and us as home haunters will suffer because of thieves.


Just to set the record straight I have never blogged, posted or commented on this particular topic.


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## Terrormaster (Sep 27, 2007)

Stoll, I think you were being confused with Grim.


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## BIGANT (Jul 13, 2010)

This is similar to Gemmy ripping off my ghost phone idea

http://www.hauntforum.com/showthread.php?t=31912&highlight=ghost+phone

I have no delusion of doing anything I just find it kind of comical really


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## RoxyBlue (Oct 6, 2008)

Apparently this reaper with lantern is a popular design because a similar one is being carried by Walgreens:

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/bu...-with-light-up-lantern/ID=prod6086252-product


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## doctarii (Oct 25, 2012)

*Not as good anyway*

I can see the similarities in both examples and if Grandins' supplier did rip off the designs then shame on them. But what can you do...the idea WAS posted on the internet for others to enjoy (and mayby copy). The only way to keep your ideas, your's is to keep them secret. Document the h#11 out of em' and copywright them six ways to sunday and even then someone can come alone make some small changes and rip you off. (there is no fun in that)

It would be great if every idea you had or item you made got you a butt load of cash or at least recogntion. But sometimes it's better to have the adoration and recognition of you fellow artists and inventors which both of these artists obviously have. (and I hope thats what they were going for in the first place.)

It's still a free country -just don't buy Grandin's products - I know I won't


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## BioHazardCustoms (Aug 5, 2009)

STOLLOWEEN said:


> Just to set the record straight I have never blogged, posted or commented on this particular topic.


I may have confused you with someone else. If I did, I apologize.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2012)

Confession: I made a cloaked ghost this year based on a cool photo I had on my computer. Turns out it was Pumpkinrot's. Mine isn't an exact copy, and I'm not making any money off of it. So why do I suddenly feel guilty? <gulp>


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