# Talking Masks



## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

I am doing a prop this year that has to have a regular looking head. He will be
doing some talking though and I was thinking about getting a mask for him and
putting a 3 axis skull inside the mask. 

Anyone try this? Or have a better way to make a mask talk?


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## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

I am guessing that a latex mask is going to be easier to get to deform in a realistic way that a cheaper rubber one?


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

Latex and rubber, in this case, are synonymous. And neither will provide the necessary amount of "give" for a wimpy 3-axis mechanism.

What you need for something like this is either foam latex or silicone.

I've been working on this very project. Check out 3-Axis Frankenstein!


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## Devils Chariot (May 23, 2007)

mr_chicken is doing something very similar to this:

Hauntforum thread

and on his blog


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## Devils Chariot (May 23, 2007)

dang he's fast!


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

Like lightning!


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## The Archivist (May 31, 2009)

What are the specifications for the talking head? I have a file for Joking Skeleton Heads, if you want.


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## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

Wow Mr. Chicken That is amazingly similar to what I have in mind. Actually I am doing a Frankenstein based scene this year. But I wanted the Doctor to be the one doing the talking. I originally thought that I would just use some generic old guy mask for him. But
after reading through your thread and blog about it I may try to get on board with the foam latex route.

I have a head that I have been sculpting on and off for a while so I can probably finish that off and use that for the mold.

Have you started making the core?


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

I have yet to make the core. Maybe tomorrow.

One thing to keep in mind: it ain't exactly cheap. I don't know how much I've spent so far, as I've been collecting the materials over time, but be prepared


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## Draik41895 (Oct 25, 2008)

Id like t see how this turns out


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## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

Mr_Chicken said:


> One thing to keep in mind: it ain't exactly cheap. I don't know how much I've spent so far, as I've been collecting the materials over time, but be prepared


Yeah, especially if you contrast the difference between putting a 30 dollar mask on a cheap movable jaw skull vs. this route. I am going to have to evaluate the situation a little before I dive in.

My last talking head was pretty basic and cheap, but far from real looking.
I was hoping for a solution that would be more realistic than my last attempt
but something that was a little cheaper and less involved than the full foam rubber route.
We will see.

So the skull that you used as an armature, is that the one that you will put inside the final mask and animate it? Or do you have another skull you are using for that?


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## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

Mr. chicken, after re-reading this I notice that you say foam latex or Silicone?

What about using silicone? What are the there pros and cons to each? I have made some
molds out of 2 part silicone that came out great and I am fairly comfortable using it.


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## Devils Chariot (May 23, 2007)

most silicone cures at room temps, foam latex needs to be baked, and under pressure I believe.

Latex is cheaper, and has a better feel for things like masks and appliances, but doesn't age as well as silicone.


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## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

Well feel is a non issue since it's no going on a person. What about performance as far as stretching then the skull inside opens it's mouth?


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## Devils Chariot (May 23, 2007)

for such a small stretch I don't know how much of a difference its going to make. You have to get pretty thin with the material before latex starts to outshine the silicone. For example glove thin latex is going to hold up better than glove thin silicone, BUT if your casting a mask, then your talking about 1/8" or more, and there I think your not going to see a big difference in the mouth moving.


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

5artist5 said:


> So the skull that you used as an armature, is that the one that you will put inside the final mask and animate it? Or do you have another skull you are using for that?


That is the skull I will be putting the 3-axis mech in.



5artist5 said:


> Mr. chicken, after re-reading this I notice that you say foam latex or Silicone?
> 
> What about using silicone? What are the there pros and cons to each? I have made some
> molds out of 2 part silicone that came out great and I am fairly comfortable using it.


From my understanding, you were not using the same type of silicone that would be used in animatronics or makeup effects. Mold making silicone is generally going to be a little tougher to stretch. Remember, the 3-axis mechanism is not very strong at all. What you can stretch with your hands is not necessarily stretchable by a 425 servo.

Now, silicone looks more like flesh, because it is translucent, while foam latex is not. However, foam latex is lighter than silicone, which is VERY important for our project.



Devils Chariot said:


> most silicone cures at room temps, foam latex needs to be baked, and under pressure I believe.
> 
> Latex is cheaper, and has a better feel for things like masks and appliances, but doesn't age as well as silicone.


Yep. Likewise, foam latex does not age well, either. For haunting purposes, it should last a few years (I think). I don't think foam needs to be under pressure, though the mold does need to be clamped tight (maybe that's what you're saying).



Devils Chariot said:


> for such a small stretch I don't know how much of a difference its going to make. You have to get pretty thin with the material before latex starts to outshine the silicone. For example glove thin latex is going to hold up better than glove thin silicone, BUT if your casting a mask, then your talking about 1/8" or more, and there I think your not going to see a big difference in the mouth moving.


Yep. Regular latex is pretty much out of the question. The ONE EXCEPTION is if you sculpt the head with the mouth open and let the latex buckle when the jaw closes. Looks ugly as heck, though.

Lastly, let's do some more comparisons.
Here's a foam latex head from Star Wars Ep. III: 




And this is a foam latex zombie:





Here's a silicone head with a gazillion controls:





Here's a silicone head with just a moving mouth:





Here's another silicone:





What I gather from these is that silicone is harder to really stretch than foam latex is. It will flex, but doesn't like to stretch unless you can give it a strong enough pull.

Both can be made to look completely realistic, but I believe foam latex is best for this project.


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## 5artist5 (Jul 10, 2007)

Wow, thanks for that Mr. Chicken. 
I think the Cop one would have been much better is it was actually animated for the dialog instead of just having the controller figure out how to move the mouth based on the sound files. That method never really seems satisfactory.


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

That may be part of the problem, 5, but I watched that one without sound, and it still looks funky. Why? The mouth just opens and shuts. The lips don't have any movement.

If you want a semi-realistic mouth movement, the lips need their own control lines, as in the zombie video.

For my Frankenstein, this is a non-issue, as he has a bit of a speech impediment anyway "Pu'in' o' 'e wis!"
Your scientist runs into the problem of being immediately dubbed "fake," unless he has those extra points of motion. Why one and not the other? The monster is a monster, and people are more accepting of an unnatural monster. A person needs to be REALLY realistic in order to be accepted. This is why CG animators have had such difficulty getting digital stunt doubles looking right. We know what a person should be like, and if it's not right, we know it instinctively. Rev talked about this a bit on Hauntcast a few ep's back. But, I digress (or do I?).


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## Devils Chariot (May 23, 2007)

I will concede to mr.chicken's expertise. 


I base my opinions on which material seems friendlier, what I have experience with, and since I am no good with motors and I can only guess at how much force would be required to move latex versus low shore (squishy) silicone. I am biased against latex and plaster, i can admit that.  I like fast curing products. 

I think either material will work. I give latex a slight edge for life likeness. but I still would go with silicone for durability/aging if I was making a haunt prop. For display under scrutiny or for film, I would have to start PMing Mr_Chicken for help with latex.


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

DC, to be clear, I really don't have any personal expertise. I'm basing this all on what I (think) I've read or figured out by looking at other stuff.

Everything you've said is perfectly true so far 
Yup. If you're looking for durability, then silicone is what you need.
Actually, silicone _does_ look more lifelike than latex or even foam latex. And so if the prop will be closely scrutinized, then you'll want silicone. Okay, so _almost_ everything you've said is true. 

In the end, either foam latex or silicone is a viable option. It really comes down to personal preference, I suppose.


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## Devils Chariot (May 23, 2007)

Mr_Chicken is making a talking frankenstien 

Devils Chariot is not.

Listen to the Chicken!!!

 it all good stuff. We're talking shop, not debating, yeah?.

Life likeness has two aspects here to think about, when the material is still, or when it is in motion. When it is still I think silicone can look more real due to translucence and gravity/sag. When it moves I think it moves like fat tissue. I think latex looks more like skin/muscle, but then it really really comes down to opinion and preference like Mr_Chicken said.

my 2 cents summarized:

Silicone is fast but expensive, looks more like fat or slack muscle.

Latex is cheap, better stretch when thin, and has more tone or muscle like qualities to it.

OK, lets go get a beer!


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## Mr_Chicken (Nov 26, 2008)

Devils Chariot said:


> Listen to the Chicken!!!


Makes me sound like some kind of a cult leader...me likey! 

Anyway...Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well.

Cheers!


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