# Making sparks fly



## joker

I just saw a video where a guy showed how to make sparks fly from a chainsaw. Basically he had a gate made out of rebar and then made a custom bar for his chainsaw (no chain). One side of the bar had basically a tab so that he could connect one clamp of set of jumper cables to it. The other side for that end he connected to the metal gate. Then he connected the other end to a battery. He would then run the fake chainsaw bar across the gate in order to get sparks (arching). 

I've seen similar setups in haunted houses but thought they were doing something different. Is this how this is done? Doesn't seem very safe. Car batteries release flammable fumes and would think the sparks could cause fire/explosion. Not to mention the battery wasn't intended for this type of abuse.


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## RoxyBlue

I agree with you, joker - sounds like an accident waiting to happen.


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## dave the dead

Joker, I saw a thread somewhere about making sparks across a chickenwire grid that sounds very similar to this. If I remember correctly ,the person was using a battery charger as the electrical source instead of an actual battery....

still sounds way too dangerous for me, though.


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## joker

dave the dead said:


> Joker, I saw a thread somewhere about making sparks across a chickenwire grid that sounds very similar to this. If I remember correctly ,the person was using a battery charger as the electrical source instead of an actual battery....
> 
> still sounds way too dangerous for me, though.


I thought about that to, but still uncertain about safety.

I wonder if I could use an electric fence controller? Might not be a huge spark light show, but might be safer. They're designed to be shorted out and shock live stock. I'd just have to make sure to keep patrons away from whatever the controller was hooked to.

Any more thoughts?!?


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## Monstermaker

We use set up we purchased from "Fright Props" (I believe)a few years back. It's a battery charger of sorts, with a built in reset button/breaker. It's been terrorizing our guests for years. The key to keep it from overheating is minimal contact. We use an expanded metal grate, but I've seen chain-link fence used as well.


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## joker

Monstermaker said:


> We use set up we purchased from "Fright Props" (I believe)a few years back. It's a battery charger of sorts, with a built in reset button/breaker. It's been terrorizing our guests for years. The key to keep it from overheating is minimal contact. We use an expanded metal grate, but I've seen chain-link fence used as well.


I don't see anything like that on their site. Is there a manufacturer of model number or anything on yours that I might be able to use to search the web? I've got some chain link panels (c-channel frame) that I'd like to incorporate into my haunt this year and this might be a great place for sparks too. Just want to make sure its safe for actor and guests.


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## Sickie Ickie

Here's a much safer method by using spark gloves from ghostride : 
http://www.ghostride.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=GLV-SPRK-G

or you can try making your own, but they do not contain the high sparks material. More of a noise maker:
http://www.rollercoasterpro.com/special_features/Slider/index.shtml


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## Revenant

That's totally different, those are designed for sliders... guys that run up on people on a concrete pavement and launch down on all fours to give a shower of sparks as they slide across the pavement. That's not something that would be very workable in any other context.

Anyone I've heard of doing the sparking grate thing with a wand or Freddy's Gloves did it with a battery charger, which is low-volt. Yeah that kind of sporadic heavy discharge would trash a battery fast I'd think.


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## Monstermaker

Joker....
I'll see what I can dig up. The unit was purchased 5-6 years ago, so they may not be making them anymore. I won't be able to check our unit until April, because it's stored away in a semi-trailer. My counterparts may have the tech manual somewhere.


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## joker

Revenant said:


> Anyone I've heard of doing the sparking grate thing with a wand or Freddy's Gloves did it with a battery charger, which is low-volt. Yeah that kind of sporadic heavy discharge would trash a battery fast I'd think.


So what's worst case with this setup? Possible fire?



Monstermaker said:


> Joker....
> I'll see what I can dig up. The unit was purchased 5-6 years ago, so they may not be making them anymore. I won't be able to check our unit until April, because it's stored away in a semi-trailer. My counterparts may have the tech manual somewhere.


Thanks Monstermaker I appreciate it.


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## hedg12

Worst case scenario - the battery explodes and sprays shrapnel and acid everywhere. Wouldn't be pretty. A battery charger should have some sort of circuit breaker built in, so the biggest risk there would be from something catching fire from the sparks. If done properly, it could sure be a cool effect though.


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## joker

hedg12 said:


> Worst case scenario - the battery explodes and sprays shrapnel and acid everywhere. Wouldn't be pretty. A battery charger should have some sort of circuit breaker built in, so the biggest risk there would be from something catching fire from the sparks. If done properly, it could sure be a cool effect though.


That's exactly why I don't want to use a battery, but was curious about using a battery charger or a small electric fence controller.


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## Revenant

All the risks I've seen discussed about using the charger/fence has involved thermal burns, not electrocutions. I agree, you surely would want to eliminate combustible materials from the immediate vicinity. And wear good gloves.


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## farmer

ive done this before with a battery charger. i never had a problem, just that it takes a lot of power to run the charger. I electric fence idea i could tell you as a farmer myself it probaley won't work, there just isn't the amperage you need. it would also give you a big shock if you are not carfule


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## evil-within

this is just a thought but why not use a grinder you would get the loud sound of the grinder and a nice shower of sparks?


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## joker

evil-within said:


> this is just a thought but why not use a grinder you would get the loud sound of the grinder and a nice shower of sparks?


Mainly because I don't want shrapnel or flying metal pieces or the take the chance of a grinding disk coming apart. I may be being overly cautious, but I'd rather be to cautious and have less effect than have a great effect and someone get hurt.


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## deathofdave

I did it this last year in my haunt i followed these plans
http://www.hauntedillinois.com/sparks.php
i also beleve it is covered in one of JB Corn's books
only change i made was putting the charger on a switch so it wasn't constantly running 
the actor would switch it on as the group entered the room
as for the effect it was a show stopper people were amazed by it 
i think next year i might try a couple more
I didn't have any trouble with the falling sparks none even made it to the floor but I had a fire extinguisher close by just in case


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## TERBobob

Key word you folks seem to be missing ...
SPARKS ...
sparks that are made from electricity contain HIGH current ! Otherwise , there would be no sparks ( or a minute' one )
With electricity and the current that you are talking about ... well , basically , there is a LOT of danger and risk ! 
And as FARMER said ... those cattle fencers just don't have the current to do any kind of "spark" show like you are wanting . 
Ya know , you talk about your patrons/visitors and the chance of them possibly getting hurt .. what about the poor sap that would be running that ? Do you know that the kind of juice ( current ) your talking about is MORE than enough to KILL someone ? AND , do you also know that DC current is the type that contracts the muscles where it does NOT allow you to "let go" as AC current does ?
Personally , I think this is an accident looking for a time and place to happen . 
If you want sparks that bad ... get one of those kiddy toy guns that when you pull on the trigger , it produces sparks out the barrel .. and LOTS of 'em ... 
Lot safer than LIVE electricity with HIGH current !

Oh .. and a quote from the website listed above 


> Although this scene is electrically safe (12 volts DC can not electrocute you),


THAT , right there , should show this fellow OBVIOUSLY has NOT done his homework and checked into this .... why? because he is WAY off cue with that statment ! It's NOT the voltage ( 12 volts example ) - its the CURRENT - aka amperage /wattage that kills !


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## Revenant

TERBobob said:


> Key word you folks seem to be missing ...
> SPARKS ...
> sparks that are made from electricity contain HIGH current ! Otherwise , there would be no sparks ( or a minute' one )


If sparks only formed in high current, a Taser would be lethal to anyone shocked by it. Tasers push about 20-50,000 Volts. If they had high current, not only would the subject be killed with one shock, they would be burned horrifically.

Current is a measure of flow. The current of a circuit is determined not by the supply but by the overall circuit. The average battery charger has a current of either 2 or 10 amps, meaning that it can supply UP TO 2 or 10 amps _when the circuit is completed_. How many amps will actually flow into the target depends on the resistance of the target and the voltage pushing the current... which, in the case of a battery charger, is 6 or 12 volts. Which, electrically speaking, ain't dick.



TERBobob said:


> THAT , right there , should show this fellow OBVIOUSLY has NOT done his homework and checked into this .... why? because he is WAY off cue with that statment ! It's NOT the voltage ( 12 volts example ) - its the CURRENT - aka amperage /wattage that kills !


Yes, it's the current that kills. But without sufficient voltage pushing it, that current won't even enter a body. To be lethal, electricity needs sufficient current AND sufficient voltage to push that current past whatever resistance is put up to it. Even though relatively little current accross the chest can put someone into V-fib, if the voltage can't overcome that resistance you're not going to take that current. Damp human skin has a resistance of about 1,000 ohms. 12 Volts is only going to be able to push 12mA accross the skin, it doesn't matter what the current of the supply is. SELV (Safety Extra-Low Voltage) is set at 42.4 Volts; you can't take a lethal shock from surface contact with anything below that voltage. 12V is a small fraction of this "safety extra low voltage."

Here's a few places to do one's homework:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Electric_shock
http://www.ednasia.com/article-7565-hazardousvoltageprimer-Asia.html


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## TERBobob

Think YOU need to read more ALSO and do some checking ! I , have heart problems and guess what ? That 


> 12 volts. Which, electrically speaking, ain't dick.


is MORE than enough to kill me ! 
Think you need to check , before flapping off like that ! You obviously think you know more than you do , which , by your statements shines thru quite clear !

A current of .005 amps is painful. At .010 amps involuntary muscle contractions occur. Loss of muscle control occurs around .015 amps. A current of greater than .070 amps can be fatal. It only takes .070 amp to kill ! Current(I) = Voltage(V) divided by Resistance(R)

So, if V = 12 and your R = 2(your skin is wet?) then I = 6amps Buzz - zap ! You're dead!
Polaris Electronics 'A' School as well as Basic Electricity & Electronics School (US Navy)
Commercial stun guns use high frequencies to keep the current close to your skin, but there have been people killed by them.

The "Tasers" that kids play with, made from a disposable camera, are just 200-300 volts DC generators, and are lethal.
Generally speaking it takes about 1/8th of an ampere to start causing heart fibrillation, which can in certain circumstances kill someone. The physical fitness of the person, where they are shocked, for how long, and at what frequency all play a significant role in the amount of damage you do.

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/473825

Need more ? 
Knowledge is good , ignorance is ????? :rolleyekin::xbones:


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## Sickie Ickie

*STOP!*

Please stop now before this gets out of hand.

Not saying you are correct or incorrect TERBobob, as I know little about electronics, however I must say your statement of "Think you need to check , before flapping off like that !" is more than a little offensive, and your earlier post was taken the same way as well as condescending ( "If you want sparks that bad ... get one of those kiddy toy guns that when you pull on the trigger , it produces sparks out the barrel .. and LOTS of 'em ...") when neither needed to be.

We are haunters here and some have more experiences than others in certain fields. This goes for anyone who plans on teaching us what you believe to be true, please keep your posts as free of flames as possible.


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## Dr Morbius

What Sickie said..

Please keep this civil. Present your info, and if it contradicts what someone else says please be polite about it. Anymore flaming and this thread will be closed. 

Thank you.


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## joker

Wow didn't realize this thread would take that turn.



Dr Morbius said:


> What Sickie said..
> 
> Please keep this civil. Present your info, and if it contradicts what someone else says please be polite about it. Anymore flaming and this thread will be closed.
> 
> Thank you.


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## Sickie Ickie

My apologies to the group if my last post offended anyone. That was never my intention.

Back to the topic on hand. Isn't there a stage gadget for concerts that shoots much sparks based on friction?


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## Revenant

Sickie Ickie said:


> Back to the topic on hand. Isn't there a stage gadget for concerts that shoots much sparks based on friction?


I know of one that magicians use in their hand that makes very small sparks that uses flint and a metal wheel; not super impressive. The one that makes the big plume of white sparks is a pyrotechnic device.


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## Sickie Ickie

The small one is a funkin ring. I've used them. You're right though. 'Tis small.


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## BoysinBoo

I finally found it! This is how the great JB Corn said he did sparks in his cemetary.



> The finale to the 300-foot trek through the cemetery is a visit by a Leatherface type creature. Leatherface needs a chainsaw, a real chainsaw with a blade. Too dangerous you say, of course it is, anyone using a real blade is a fool. You will be amazed at how many customers do not know that. I gave my chainsaw a blade with illusion. Near the exit we have a very large tombstone, about four feet high. Concealed in the tombstone is a motorized grinding wheel. The chainsaw starts as our creature walks towards the customers. You always have a customer that says, "There is no blade, it can't hurt you." Well, well, my actor approaches the tombstone with the hidden grinder, he steps on a platform switch and the grinder spins up to speed (you don't want it making noise till the chainsaw sound can drown it). He then takes the chainsaw blade and grinds it. From the customers point of view it appears that the chainsaw is cutting stone. The sparks fly, the customers react, the creature chases the customers as they run for their lives. When the actor leaves the platform switch, the grinder spins down and stops. The chainsaw blade is not the original. I have a sheet metal shop make several blanks and while I am at it, I make them longer.


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## silent night

hey joker, we did this a couple of years back. just get a battery charger and ground it to the fence you will be working with. clamp on a metal "wand" and drag that across the fence. dont forget to wear heavy duty gloves. worked all night without a hitch...


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## Evil Bob

I'm looking for a smaller spark generator. My hooked handed pirate captain will be playing an electric guitar this year, and I thought it would be cool to have sparks fly when he strums the strings. Those spark shooting raygun toys seem to be hard to find, and I'm not sure that's the route I want to go. I'd like for it to shoot sparks on command, but I think a flint grinder thingie would wear down quickly. Any thoughts?


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## Evil Bob

Oops. I just looked up "funkin ring". It looks ideal for my application.


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## Sickie Ickie

Bob, a funkin ring is just a flint grinder in a plastic box concealed by the hand.


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## Evil Bob

I just got a couple of these funkin rings. Unfortunately, it's pretty much useless for what I want. I guess I can simulate sparks with a strobelight.


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## Evil Bob

I'm going to use fiber optics and a strobe light. I'll start fewer fires!


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## joker

Just thought I'd chime in with what we're doing this year. Our cells have a chain link framed with a C-channel front on them. We took an old 12v battery charger and connected one side to the fence panel and then made a wand to the other. Drag the wand across the chain link and voila! sparks!!!










The charger is tucked nicely behind a wall and we've even held onto the fence while running the wand across it and not so much as even a tingle.


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## Haunted Spider

Figure I might as well shed some light on a spark fence. 

I worked for a haunt for 5 years that created spark fence. They used a car battery, 900CCA to power the fence. I did the scene one year. I figured out really fast to wear gloves as teh metal on your fingers hurt when you raked the wand. A battery charger was always hooked up to the battery and turned on when the sparks got low. The battery would shower sparks up to 18 inches. The positive was the wand, and the negative was hardwired to the fence. The wand started out as a screwdriver and switched to a 3/8th steel rod. 

We used the 1 inch square fencing the first year but it would burn through. We switched to stretched steel the second year and it held up just fine. To protect the patrons, the fence was built into a wall. The front of the fence was covered by a sheet of plexiglass. The actor was in a mask and did not have on safety glasses. The year I did it, I never ended up with anything in my eyes. 

Now that was my experience. Knowing what I know now, here is what I would change. 
The actor should have on safety glasses. It does throw sparks far enough to hit them. A fire extinguisher should be close by because you just never know. 

Although the battery had a great spark effect (18 inches easy), I don't think I would use one again. With the battery releasing gases or taking the chance of exploding, I just don't think I would do it. A battery charger does work to throw sparks, they are just not near as impressive. For safety over the spark shower, I would go with safety. 

I will say that the owner of the haunt was a mechanic. He has worked with batteries and wiring his whole career and did understand how they work. I would bet he knew what he was doing but in the voice of safety for the patrons, I will have to pass on using a battery in the future. 

Fright props does have a spark grid for sale. They call it a spark fence. It is product number SKU: 0950. So they are available commercially, which would argue they are reasonably safe if the right precautions are taken. 

Good luck to those who are using this effect. And think safety for your patrons.


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## dominic81

If anyone is still interested I saw earlier in this thread someone was interested in FrightProps spark fence heres the link http://www.frightprops.com/air-electric-props/spark-fence.html


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## churchpunk74463

I use a fence made from re-bar and a batter charger. We have used it every year in our haunt. The first year we used a solid bar and now we use a chainsaw and just hit at it. Never had any problems


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## Darkmaster

joker said:


> Mainly because I don't want shrapnel or flying metal pieces or the take the chance of a grinding disk coming apart. I may be being overly cautious, but I'd rather be to cautious and have less effect than have a great effect and someone get hurt.


With your haunt being indoors, as I have seen in your pictures, the fire marshall will not allow this. Even so, why have any sparks of any kind indoors???????????


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## Allen H

Just food for thought- a really good read
http://knowledgeweb.afac.com.au/__d...4/HAZMAT_Articles_Welding_Sparks_and_Fire.pdf


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## Darkmaster

Allen H said:


> Just food for thought- a really good read
> http://knowledgeweb.afac.com.au/__d...4/HAZMAT_Articles_Welding_Sparks_and_Fire.pdf


Thanks Allen, these are the exact reasons why I don't understand Joker's reason for having sparks inside. I know he is young and starting out, but has to look at the big picture and *SAFETY* as a whole.


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## spazztheclown

Hey guys an idea would be to mount some magnesium to the tip of the bar which will spark aganist metal or you could even use titanium which can spark against concrete


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