# Computer control - VSA v.s. Vixen



## Diaval (Nov 9, 2007)

Hello,

I have been entering the wonderful world of haunting via computer control. I am already sold on the Prop-2 controller that is offered by EFX-TEK and for most applications this is sufficient. However, there are some multi-tasking routines that are best off done via a PC (such as talking skulls).

I know there are two programs out there right now that haunters are using and that is Brookshire's VSA and Vixen.

So my questions are aimed at those who have used both already.

What are the differences between the programs?
Which do you prefer to use?

These questions are both in the context of servo control, lighting control and audio sync control.

Thank You

JG


----------



## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

As far as I know, Vixen can only control servos via the Prop-2, as that is the only plugin written for vixen that can access a board capable of controlling servos, and thus only 3 servos can be controlled by Vixen. If anyone has any updates on the capatability of Vixen with any other boards that can control servos I'd like to know about it, as Vixen is free and open source. It was originally written for controlling lighting, esp. Christmas lighting, so it's a great choice if that's all you need to control.
VSA is the best servo controlling software I have ever seen, as that is what it was origianlly designed for. It's not free, but it can control ANYTHING including Parallel port access and DMX capable devices. With a wide variety of servo controller board plugins included with the package, there is no better choice IMO.


----------



## halloweenguy (Dec 27, 2006)

I agree with Dr Morbius!!! If its servos, dmx devices, relay boards you want to control then VSA is well suited...Plus you don't have to be a programmer with the easy to use GUI. We use this setup to control our Skulltronix skulls and its very reliable and user freindly.

If its Vixen and Prop1 or 2 boards you want to use you can download the Vixen Plug in's here to support them.
http://www.vixenlights.com/downloads.html#plugins


----------



## Diaval (Nov 9, 2007)

Hello Dr. M & HG

I have looked briefly into both programs, but have not delved to either with any kind of depth. I know that the guys over at EFX-TEK have been talking about Vixen alot and yes, the program does center around controlling lights. 

As I mentioned earlier, I am sold on the Prop 1 & 2 controllers for the simple fact that they are self running and you can do quite a bit with them. However, they do have their limitations. For one...they are not true multi-tasking. I found out that you CAN fake it, but that only goes so far.

As it is, when it comes to syncing audio with motor control movements, that is where the Prop 1 and 2 fall short.

Vixen has come up there as a solution to the problem...also going with the new Prop - SX controller also can solve the problem. But there is more to learn when programming the SX and I still have to get the Prop-2 down pat.

In the meantime I KNOW I want something that I can sync sounds and music too.

I found this forum shortly after halloween and really found it to be a great source of information. Naturally I found my way to the tech section here and I have found that when it comes to talking skulls and audio syncronization that many have been using VSA with the servo controller board from Parallax.

At first I didn't pay the program any mind because like Vixen, you need a full computer to control it. Also, I really thought it was for servos only. But then yesterday I read up on it and what it can do and that it can also control lights and interface with DMX. Ok...I am familiar with DMX when I was working with theatrical lighting. So that caused me to raise an eyebrow.

So that got me wondering to which is better and or easier to work with, Vixen or VSA? 

Ok, so it looks like I have my answer. I guess I shouldn't bother with Vixen and go right to VSA then. Now I guess can you use something like a Kit74 and plug that straight into the parallel port and start programming with VSA right away?

Thanx for the info. I guess I am going to play with VSA a bit more.


----------



## randyaz (May 26, 2006)

VSA is *THE* product for servo/relay/dmx precision control and sync...

A PROPn routine can also be activated with VSA and a servo controller reading the PWM signal using PULSIN or by reading the state of a relay with HI/LOW

Vixen too is viable product...used for its intended purpose. EFX-TEK seems to have brought attention to it because its free and for its ease of use for sequencing with the PROPn's by newbies who wanted a quick start without PBasic knowledge. The unreleased Version 2 is supposed to add more features.


----------



## halloweenguy (Dec 27, 2006)

Jukingeo, I am going to thow out another wrinkle... since your familar with DMX there is a new DMX servo contoller board that we use to power the latest version of the Skulltronix Skull called the "Board of Chuckie"...It is fully supported by VSA now...We used to use the parallax usb servo controller, but are now switching over to full DMX.

Details and price should be posted on the skulltronix web site in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## halloweenguy (Dec 27, 2006)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the major drawbacks with using the Prop1 with Vixen to contol servos its too slow??? Thats why its limited to controlling 3 servos max for a prop 1

here is a quote from an earlier post:
For the Vixen/Prop-1 project the driver supports three servos and four digital outputs -- that's about all that can be supported while refreshing the servos at a reasonable rate (about 40 ms).


----------



## Diaval (Nov 9, 2007)

halloweenguy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the major drawbacks with using the Prop1 with Vixen to contol servos its too slow??? Thats why its limited to controlling 3 servos max for a prop 1
> 
> here is a quote from an earlier post:
> For the Vixen/Prop-1 project the driver supports three servos and four digital outputs -- that's about all that can be supported while refreshing the servos at a reasonable rate (about 40 ms).


Hello HG,

You are right on both counts. The Prop-1 IS too slow and while you actually can hook up more than three servos...you do risk going over the 20ms refresh rate that servos like. In addition, the memory is VERY small. So you can run out of program space very fast.

That being said some have tested them for longer periods of time. I will say though I have heard 20ms quoted more than 40ms. I never went that long on a refresh, but I know know I have broken the 20ms barrier a few times without any problems.

Anyway, I have the Prop-2 controller and the Prop-2 is FIVE TIMES faster than the Prop-1. So yeah, the Prop-2 is more suited for servo control than the Prop-1 is. I don't think I would do much servo control with a Prop-1. For me the Prop-1 would be good for flashing lights and turning devices on and off. For servo control and PWM (light dimming) effects...I wouldn't go with anything less than the Prop-2.

But the limitation of both Prop controllers is that the basic stamp runs in a linear fashion...or is pointer driven and that pointer can be in only one place at a time. Hence neither the Prop 1 or Prop 2 is multi-tasking. However, you CAN fake it to a certain degree.

It is just that when you need to do something as sophisticated as audio syncing...you need a more sophisticated controller. Hence my asking about Vixen and VSA.



halloweenguy said:


> Jukingeo, I am going to thow out another wrinkle... since your familar with DMX there is a new DMX servo contoller board that we use to power the latest version of the Skulltronix Skull called the "Board of Chuckie"...It is fully supported by VSA now...We used to use the parallax usb servo controller, but are now switching over to full DMX.
> 
> Details and price should be posted on the skulltronix web site in the next couple of weeks.


I have not delved into anything by Skulltronix as they are a bit high priced for me right now. I guess that is another reason why I like this forum because I am finding out so many interesting AND inexpensive ways to create an impressive haunted attraction.

I am familiar with DMX because I used to set systems up for DJ's, Nightclubs and Theatres. But I don't own anything DMX for the same reason I mentioned about Skulltronix. The stuff is pretty expensive. But yeah, the DMX stuff is GREAT. You could pretty much program an entire haunt using a single control system. DMX is scene driven and these scenes can be bunched together into chase patterns and then those chase patterns can be made into a full show sequence. So if you are into huge room scenes with large multi-channel animatronic figures, then DMX is one of the better formats to work with.

I will say that overall I am not going to go heavy into audio syncronized props, but I would like one or two. Just about everything else will be on Prop 1's and Prop 2's.

My goal for 2008 is to create a haunt that is fully non-pneumatic and with my new found knowledge of programming the Basic Stamp Prop controllers, I believe this is a very good possibility. (I have nothing against pneumatics, in fact I do want to eventually go this route, but right now I don't own the equipment and purchasing all the things you need to get started with pneumatics is out of my budget).

Right now I am already overwhelmed with the control capabilities of the Prop-2. I am having a total blast with thing. In one shot it rendered obsolete all of my traditional ideas that I used to have for prop control using old fashioned 555 timers, 4017 decade counters/dividers, flip flops and other TTL circuits. Now I can basically have one basic hardware set up and I just have to change the program to have it do what I want. It truly simplifies things greatly. I am hoping VSA will do that for me as well when it comes to audio syncronization.

Ahhhh, I love embedded control!

JG


----------



## Diaval (Nov 9, 2007)

randyaz said:


> VSA is *THE* product for servo/relay/dmx precision control and sync...
> 
> EFX-TEK seems to have brought attention to it because its free and for its ease of use for sequencing with the PROPn's by newbies who wanted a quick start without PBasic knowledge. The unreleased Version 2 is supposed to add more features.


Yes, Randy, I think you hit it on the head. I came on board with EFX-TEK and purchased the Prop-2 controller JUST as Vixen was discovered by those over there. As you said, they do tout Vixen as a programming aid to assist in those wanting to program the Prop controllers without learning PBasic. When it came to programming the prop controllers I decided I wanted to learn to program it using PBasic. I wanted to learn the programming language. Sure the initial learning curve is tough, but Jon Williams over at EFX-TEK is a GREAT coach and he knows what material to look into to learn PBasic. Heck...some of the best material is stuff he wrote himself! Within less than a month I was already writing my own programs from scratch.

Ok, so then I guess I am sold, that is 3 for 3 in VSA's corner.

Thanx again for the info guys, I will play around with the VSA demo program some more.

JG


----------



## randyaz (May 26, 2006)

halloweenguy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the major drawbacks with using the Prop1 with Vixen to contol servos its too slow??? Thats why its limited to controlling 3 servos max for a prop 1
> 
> here is a quote from an earlier post:
> For the Vixen/Prop-1 project the driver supports three servos and four digital outputs -- that's about all that can be supported while refreshing the servos at a reasonable rate (about 40 ms).


I have only given Vixen a very short checkout, but as I understand it, Vixen has nothing to do with active control of the servos. Vixen is only used to graphically lay out the sequences and then "compiles" the sequence into Prop1 instructions (a .bs1file) which is then loaded into the Prop1 memory.

I've read that Vixen v2 will be able to actively drive a servo controller "real time" like VSA does along with running multiple instances on multiple serial ports.

The speed of the Prop1 is limiting but I've seen 6 servos operating off of it. The major problem with multiple servos is the Prop1's limited memory and the amount of memory that sync/running the servos consume.


----------



## halloweenguy (Dec 27, 2006)

Thanks Randy and Jukingeo for giving me the in depth knowledge of the Prop1and Prop2 stuff...


----------



## JonnyMac (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm late to this discussion, but allow me to chime in and shed some light (based on my own opinions, of course).

Aside from interface, VSA and Vixen do, essentially, the same thing: they are event sequencers. Every N milliseconds they can send messages to a connected device to tell it what to do. It doesn't matter if it's a light where 0 to 255 represents brightness, or a servo where 0 is full left and 255 is full right -- the the underlying software it's all just numbers; we humans and the devices we connect assign practical meaning to those numbers.

Of course, Vixen was targeted at the lighting community hence has features that lighting designers enjoy. That said, it's still just numbers, and it's open architecture makes it absolutely great at controlling anything that a person can create a suitable driver for. And let's face it, haunters are always looking for a bargain (who isn't?) and Vixen's price can't be beat.

The Prop-1 servo demo is really just that; a demo. Most servo-based props need more than three servos and more performance than the Prop-1 can offer while monitoring a serial stream. The Prop-2 is faster and does a better job, but the real powerhouse in our line is the Prop-SX and you'll see a lot of focus on that.

For example, a major amusement/entertainment company is using the Prop-SX as a custom DMX slave. The great thing for them is that we've created some base software and they can customize it any time they want. To date I have written programs for controlling eight relays, another to control eight PWM channels, and next up is a servo program. The add-on we created for the DMX interface supports bi-directional RS-485 communications, so this will work well with future versions of Vixen that are designed to work with external simultaneous sent over a serial connection.

The other neat thing about the Prop-SX is that it can in fact multi-task, so I'm working with KC Oaks (Vixen's creator) to do some really fun stuff for the Prop-SX; the Prop-SX has a 32K EEPROM on it that could store a lot of sequences and servo moves; our goal is to use Vixen as a GUI for creating a sophisticated servo-controlled prop that you could untether from the PC (like we do with the Prop-1 and Prop-2 sequencers).

We're busy over at EFX-TEK... stay tuned.

Jon Williams
EFX-TEK


----------



## Dr Morbius (Sep 21, 2004)

Whoooooweeee!! What else can I say? I can hardly wait!


----------



## ruafraid (Jan 3, 2006)

Jon

I look forward to what you and KC come up with. I am on the main DIY board and have used Vixen for 2 years myself and I want to incorporate it into my Haunt this year the possibilities are endless.


----------

