# Sticky  Vortex Chiller



## gmacted

For those of you who are interested in fog chillers. Here is a link to a manual for the Vortex Pro Fog Chillers. It gives you some really good pictures of how it is made. You could make one yourself much cheaper than buying one.

edited 10/10/2007 --> updated the link to the manual


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## darryl

Thanks gmacted. Always wondered how those worked so well.


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## HibLaGrande

wow thanks GM. I have a kitty litter bucket out in the garage I could use.


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## gmacted

HibLaGrande said:


> wow thanks GM. I have a kitty litter bucket out in the garage I could use.


That's what I thought of when I first saw it. Please post how much it cost to build it. I think they charge way too much for this product for what it is.


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## HibLaGrande

well let's see...

1 kitty litter bucket.......free
1 2 inch pvc 90 elbo......$1.00-$1.50 ?
1 2 inch pvc pipe..........I think I have a piece around somewere.
1 grate material............I have some of that too.
Ice ......................... no problem there.

looks like I can make this for under $2.00. or $3.00 for black spray paint


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## HibLaGrande

it seems that you would want to shoot the hot fog to the top and have it come down through the ice. I wonder what a block of dry ice would do to the fog in that gizmo?


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## Dr Morbius

It would super cool it for a short period of time..best to add salt to wet ice.


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## randyaz

I saw the vortex fogger in action at HauntCon and it stands up to its claims, however, there was another vendor there selling fog juice that had slapped together a small bucket fogger in his hotel room that was performing just as well...if not better. Save your $$ and make a simple bucket/dryer hose chiller.


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## gmacted

HibLaGrande said:


> it seems that you would want to shoot the hot fog to the top and have it come down through the ice. I wonder what a block of dry ice would do to the fog in that gizmo?


It's the total opposite of that. You want to shoot the fog to the bottom, let it rise through the ice, and then be forced down through the outlet pipe. It makes more sense this way. First you want to let the fog expand, then let it naturally rise (hot air/fog rises) and let it be cooled by the ice, then be forced down the outlet pipe which is also cooled by the ice.


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## gmacted

randyaz said:


> I saw the vortex fogger in action at HauntCon and it stands up to its claims, however, there was another vendor there selling fog juice that had slapped together a small bucket fogger in his hotel room that was performing just as well...if not better. Save your $$ and make a simple bucket/dryer hose chiller.


HiblaGrande is making this one for ~$3. You can't get much cheaper than that!


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## Zombie-F

Now that I see how this thing is made, I can just make a small modification to my old "Fog on the Rocks" chiller to get a similar effect as the Vortex chiller. Basically, it looks like the Vortex is Wil's old FOTR with an elbow and a length of pipe attached on the inside of the outlet pipe.

How does he get off charging so much money for that thing?


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## heresjohnny

gmacted said:


> For those of you who are interested in fog chillers. Here is a link to a manual for the Vortex Pro Fog Chillers. It gives you some really good pictures of how it is made. You could make one yourself much cheaper than buying one.


Thanks gmacted, I am a big fan of cheap fog chillers!


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## HibLaGrande

OK so I went to Lowes today and bought a 5 gallon bucket for 5 bucks, a 6foot length of 2 inch pvc for 6 bucks (only needed 8 inches), a long sweep 90 elbow for 1.50. and a female threaded adapter for 1.50. I cut a panel of wire frame modular storage shelf for the main ice mesh for support and covered that with chicken wire folded over to make the mesh tighter.slapped the whole thing together with duct tape in about an hour and it does work suprisingly well.  oh yeah it fits a whole 10 Lb bag of ice 1.45

so I spent more than $2.00, I forgot I threw out all my kitty liter buckets last week end on a dump run.

but Im still under $20.00 and every thing is shiney new.


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## gmacted

HibLaGrande said:


> OK so I went to Lowes today and bought a 5 gallon bucket for 5 bucks, a 6foot length of 2 inch pvc for 6 bucks (only needed 8 inches), a long sweep 90 elbow for 1.50. and a female threaded adapter for 1.50. I cut a panel of wire frame modular storage shelf for the main ice mesh for support and covered that with chicken wire folded over to make the mesh tighter.slapped the whole thing together with duct tape in about an hour and it does work suprisingly well.  oh yeah it fits a whole 10 Lb bag of ice 1.45
> 
> so I spent more than $2.00, I forgot I threw out all my kitty liter buckets last week end on a dump run.
> 
> but Im still under $20.00 and every thing is shiney new.


How about some pictures or a video? What type of fogger did you use?


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## NickG

cool... I might have to make one or two of these. I know I have 2 litter buckets...


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## Frighteners Entertainment

Zombie-F said:


> Now that I see how this thing is made, I can just make a small modification to my old "Fog on the Rocks" chiller to get a similar effect as the Vortex chiller. Basically, it looks like the Vortex is Wil's old FOTR with an elbow and a length of pipe attached on the inside of the outlet pipe.
> 
> How does he get off charging so much money for that thing?


You got it Z, that was the big secret!!! LOL


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## Vlad

What really amazes me is how he got patents on it??


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## gmacted

Vlad said:


> What really amazes me is how he got patents on it??


I was thinking the same thing.

All it is is PVC pipe and some wire mesh. Way over priced!


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## edwood saucer

How does this compare though to some of the modifications that are out there - specifically - and I can't remember the name of it - the rubbermaid trash can with the dryer ducting coiled up in it?

Or how does this compare to the basic "cooler" chillers?

I'm just curious if anyone has any opinions. I haven't started my chillers and want to gather opinions.

: ^)


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## gmacted

edwood saucer said:


> How does this compare though to some of the modifications that are out there - specifically - and I can't remember the name of it - the rubbermaid trash can with the dryer ducting coiled up in it?
> 
> Or how does this compare to the basic "cooler" chillers?
> 
> I'm just curious if anyone has any opinions. I haven't started my chillers and want to gather opinions.
> 
> : ^)


According to the manual, "... since turbulance is the number one enemy of fog, we strongly recommend NOT using any form of corrugated duct such as dryer hose which will rob you of both fog density as well as velocity you need to propel the fog out to the scene."

I used a chiller based roughly on this design (only one slight modifiaction is needed) and I think it works rather well. The only main difference is that I used a cooler as my container.


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## krough

is the outlet pipe just an outlet pipe? maybe 1 inch on the inside of the chamber? I cant see it.


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## gmacted

krough said:


> is the outlet pipe just an outlet pipe? maybe 1 inch on the inside of the chamber? I cant see it.


The outlet pipe goes inside the chamber, has a 90 degree bend and then goes straight to the top of the ice chamber.


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## krough

Wow, I was looking at it completely backwards. LOL. OMG, what a moron I am. So the fog enters the bottom of the chamber, expands, rises, pushes thru the ice, then when pressure becomes great enough pushes down thru the black pipe and out the 90 degree bend and out the side? How far does the inlet pipe need to extend into the chamber?


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## gmacted

krough said:


> Wow, I was looking at it completely backwards. LOL. OMG, what a moron I am. So the fog enters the bottom of the chamber, expands, rises, pushes thru the ice, then when pressure becomes great enough pushes down thru the black pipe and out the 90 degree bend and out the side? How far does the inlet pipe need to extend into the chamber?


That's how it works.

The inlet pipe only needs to get the fog into the chamber. It doesn't need to extend into the chamber at all.


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## HibLaGrande

here's some pics, mind you every thing is rough cut and not glued, the pipes are are sealed around the bucket with duct tape, I wanted to make sure it worked before I spent any real time putting it together. when the lid is on I have about 1/2 inch clearance from the lid to the top of the outlet pipe.



















Oh yeah I'm using a 400 watt wal-mart fogger.


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## Otaku

Whoa! I'm gonna modify my ice chest chiller tonight. I'm getting ready to buy a Chauvet F-1250 and this design should chill the fog just right. Thanks, gmacted!


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## meestercranky

did anyone download the PDF document? the link is broken. Must've been taken down.


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## Hex

*If at first you don't succeed...........*

Try it again ( I think the system was overloaded). If it doesn't work I have it saved.

Hex


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## edwood saucer

I think it was taken down too...


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## Sipesh

Was this the PDF?


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## edwood saucer

Yeah - I'm pretty sure that was it - thanks!


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## meestercranky

got it - thanks!


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## gmacted

Sipesh said:


> Was this the PDF?


That is the correct pdf file. I also saved it just in case we needed it for "future reference".

I wouldn't want anyone to overpay for something they can build very inexpensively themselves.


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## Otaku

I modified my FOTR chiller to the Vortex design the other day and got pretty good results. Tonight I tried reversing the flow so the fog blows up through the pipe, then down through the ice. The results were considerably better - the fog came out colder and stayed down until it cleared. Previously the fog would rise long before it dissipated. If anyone is building a Vortex-type chiller, give it a try (you probably would have anyway, haunters are a curious bunch).


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## krough

Interesting


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## meestercranky

I have a vortex chiller, and one thing is that the inlet and outlet are at 45 degrees to each other - this prevents the fog from blowing straight out.


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## gmacted

Otaku said:


> I modified my FOTR chiller to the Vortex design the other day and got pretty good results. Tonight I tried reversing the flow so the fog blows up through the pipe, then down through the ice. The results were considerably better - the fog came out colder and stayed down until it cleared. Previously the fog would rise long before it dissipated. If anyone is building a Vortex-type chiller, give it a try (you probably would have anyway, haunters are a curious bunch).


Thanks for the info. I'll have to try that myself.


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## heresjohnny

Otaku said:


> I modified my FOTR chiller to the Vortex design the other day and got pretty good results. Tonight I tried reversing the flow so the fog blows up through the pipe, then down through the ice. The results were considerably better - the fog came out colder and stayed down until it cleared. Previously the fog would rise long before it dissipated. If anyone is building a Vortex-type chiller, give it a try (you probably would have anyway, haunters are a curious bunch).


Great idea otaku! Did you move the expansion chamber up also, in other words have the inlet come out and dump into the top of the cooler, leaving a gap at the top above the ice for the expansion chamber?


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## Otaku

heresjohnny said:


> Great idea otaku! Did you move the expansion chamber up also, in other words have the inlet come out and dump into the top of the cooler, leaving a gap at the top above the ice for the expansion chamber?


Sort of...the ice chest I have has a concave lid which acts as an expansion chamber. I plan to lower the ice tray to the level of the outlet pipe, and then add ice to about 1 - 2" below the top of the container. Combined with the concave space of the lid, this should allow enough expansion. I also noticed that this flow configuration prevents the cold fog from flowing back out of the inlet pipe when the fogger is not cycling.


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## krough

OK I have an old 50 QT igloo ice chest, Is this large enough for a chiller of this design?


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## Otaku

Sure is. That's the same size I'm using.


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## shaunathan

Is this how that vortex works, or am I missing something?


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## Vlad

Shaun, the way you have it depicted, is the way that Otaku modified it. The original Vortex design would have the fogger on the left of your drawing from what I can tell.


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## HibLaGrande

you would be correct Vlad


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## Brad Green

Just finished building one of these from an Igloo 60qt. cooler, using a lowly 400w FogFX from Walmart, and it really lays out the fog! I pretty much followed the ideas outlined in some of the other posts here (1/3 expansion chamber, 2/3 ice, int. exhaust vent about 1" from the top). Couple of things I did find out while testing, you need a real good seal on the lid to prevent seepage, switching exh/int ports with the fog machine really didn't seem to improve output (maybe the low watt fogger), running it the way the instructions state it may benefit from some type of one way flap to prevent the fog from rolling back out the intake port between the cycles of the fog machine, and last, DON'T use a pseudo venturi like the fog-on-the-rocks system - it actually cut down the fog output tremendously, placing the fog machine 2-3" from the intake port works very well in place of the "y" pipe. The Igloo cooler makes for a nice compact unit that will be easy to store, and so far, I'm really impressed with the output.


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## gmacted

Brad Green said:


> Just finished building one of these from an Igloo 60qt. cooler, using a lowly 400w FogFX from Walmart, and it really lays out the fog! I pretty much followed the ideas outlined in some of the other posts here (1/3 expansion chamber, 2/3 ice, int. exhaust vent about 1" from the top). Couple of things I did find out while testing, you need a real good seal on the lid to prevent seepage, switching exh/int ports with the fog machine really didn't seem to improve output (maybe the low watt fogger), running it the way the instructions state it may benefit from some type of one way flap to prevent the fog from rolling back out the intake port between the cycles of the fog machine, and last, DON'T use a pseudo venturi like the fog-on-the-rocks system - it actually cut down the fog output tremendously, placing the fog machine 2-3" from the intake port works very well in place of the "y" pipe. The Igloo cooler makes for a nice compact unit that will be easy to store, and so far, I'm really impressed with the output.


Thanks for the feedback!


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## shaunathan

should I be afraid of putting too much ice inside?


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## Brad Green

I kept the ice level about an inch or so from the top of the interior pipe, which in turn is an inch away from the bottom of the cooler lid, that seemed to work best. I got an amazing level of fog out of the cheap little Wallyworld unit. Oh, gmacted, it was your posts both here and elsewhere that put me on this track, so my Thanks for all of your research!


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## Frighteners Entertainment

Well, with all this talk, I may need to build one of these, but still don't know if I would use it?


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## edwood saucer

Question from those with experience...

Do you have to keep adding ice through the evening?

I think I will try this with a five gallon bucket (home brewers bucket) - -or should I just go a head and destroy a cooler?
??


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## Frighteners Entertainment

That would be a yes, the ice melts.
It would last a little bit longer if you insulate your container.


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## ruafraid

Frighteners Entertainment said:


> Well, with all this talk, I may need to build one of these, but still don't know if I would use it?


Jeff I built one somehow this weekend and tested it last night with ice and it really makes a HUGE difference how the fog lays low & cool and stays around much longer. I had everything but the cooler last year I just ran out of time. I have not been a big fan of the foggers due to the fact it dissapears so fast but I think with a few if these its gonna be different this year. I picked up a 48qt cooler from a neighbor that was throwing it out. If you are using FOG then you must make one it really does not take much time. I picked up the large hole saw set at Harbor Freight on sale for $ 4.00 or something close to that. I used 2" PVC for all the connections.


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## shaunathan

boy I feel really dense, can someone draw me a diagram of the proper way this looks inside? I must just be missing the picture... :/


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## Brad Green

Shaunathan, you already have the diagram you need. To do it the way the Vortex is laid out, use the second red line of your drawing for the mesh tray and move the fogger to the smaller straight pipe (the "L" shaped pipe is the outlet port). The "L" pipe runs up to about 1' away from the bottom of the cooler lid, and the ice level goes to nearly the top of that pipe. Fog goes in the bottom of the cooler, then, being hot, rises through the ice, gets cooled and flows out the "L" pipe. I used a 1/3 expansion area to 2/3 ice tray area for dimensions. All my pvc was 2". Keep the fogger as centered to the inlet as you can, and add a 2" by around 18" or so extension to your out from the cooler (not necessary, just gets the fog out away from your setup). With those exceptions, the drawing you made is pretty much on the money.


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## Brad Green

Sorry, "L" pipe 1 INCH not foot from the bottom of the lid! Need to learn how to preview!


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## NickG

I was gathering the stuff up to make a mini chiller, noticed that my kitty litter pail is about 4" shorter than the vortex one... might work well for a 400w unit tho.


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## shaunathan

Brad Green said:


> Shaunathan, you already have the diagram you need. To do it the way the Vortex is laid out, use the second red line of your drawing for the mesh tray and move the fogger to the smaller straight pipe (the "L" shaped pipe is the outlet port). The "L" pipe runs up to about 1' away from the bottom of the cooler lid, and the ice level goes to nearly the top of that pipe. Fog goes in the bottom of the cooler, then, being hot, rises through the ice, gets cooled and flows out the "L" pipe. I used a 1/3 expansion area to 2/3 ice tray area for dimensions. All my pvc was 2". Keep the fogger as centered to the inlet as you can, and add a 2" by around 18" or so extension to your out from the cooler (not necessary, just gets the fog out away from your setup). With those exceptions, the drawing you made is pretty much on the money.


ok got it now, sorry brain melted on making fences :/


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## Fright Zone

Hi, I'm Fright Zone, I'm the one who turned gmacted onto the Vortex PDF manual on Halloweenforum.com and the idea that the Vortex Chillers use a 90 degree PVC elbow to shoot the fog to the top of the unit. Presumably to create more velocity.

I type a lot on occasion if only to explain myself in one post ; )

I had a successful modest yard haunt with a cauldron filled with ice hooked to a 400w Gemmy last year. I was inspired to try a fog chiller this year by following gmacted's and Zombie-F's online instructions & photos. 

I then noticed the Vortex Fusion product video shows a PVC tube going to the top inside. I then found the PDF user manual on Frightprops.com which has since been taken down. The photos and instructions revealed that in fact it was a 90 degree bend to the top, the ice chamber was only 1/3 the height, a 3" gap from the the inlet to the fogger nozzle works in lieu of a pseudo venturi (and with more force it tuns out), and an aluminum dryer duct creates turbulence if used.

I had been thinking about buying the Vortex Mini with my 400W Gemmy fogger, when I came across the $15 Igloo Ice Cube 48qt cooler (also available in a 60qt Roller) that was a similar proportion to the Vortex products. So I recently built one and can say it's a success.

I tried bradg's & Otaku's suggestion of using the intended outlet as the inlet to shoot the fog straight up through the 90 degree bend to the the lid, and then forced down through the ice and into the expansion chamber, and out the intended inlet. By "intended" I mean that the Vortex seems to use the inlet with no 90 degree bend to shoot the fog into a 2/3 expansion chamber at the bottom of the chiller inside, then up through the wall of ice 1/3 of the chiller's height, and out the 90 degree bend of PVC which is at a perpendicular angle to the inlet and about 2" higher. Both ways work, but the reverse way of using the outlet as the inlet seems to have more velocity. It just means you have to prop you fogger up on something. I used a Mini Mister box which is about the size of a brick. 

I also tried a 26 gallon $5 black trash can with (2) 4" x 8ft aluminum dryer ducts hooked together, to compare the cooler to the trash can. 

I also put a fan on low and medium settings to simulate wind in my tests. The wind of course destroys the fog, but the chillers do help the fog produce a thick, lingering, higher velocity fog that holds its own in a small area even with wind.

I took video and photos, but it would be awhile 'til I'd get any online. Regardless, the verdict is that both chillers work of course, as has been proven in the past by numerous haunters. But my modification of using the Igloo Ice Cube inspired by the Fog on the Rocks & Vortex works well also in a compact design. 

I also used Krylon Fusion spray paint that adheres to plastic without the need for sanding or primer. I found that out from Zombie-F's instructions. 

The Igloo Cube worked especially well with the inlet being the 2" PVC 90 degree bend to the top about 1" from the lid inside and off center toward the far corner of the cooler, forced down through an ice chamber at the top which is 1/3 the overall height consisting of hardware wire mesh tied with black plastic ties to a 3/4" PVC frame, into a 2/3 of the entire cooler height expansion chamber at the bottom of the cooler, and out the 2" PVC the outlet hooked up to a dryer duct to a plastic cauldron. 

The trash can works well with the fogger either 3" away from the 4" dia aluminum dryer duct opening OR right next to it with a 1" gap above the mini fogger, through the trash can filled with ice, out the 4" dia aluminum dryer duct outlet, using a 3" to 2" PVC reducer placed in the outlet to push the fog out farther and make a nicer low lying pattern. 

I think the cooler cube reversing the inlet will be used with my cauldron & witch prop this year. The trash can with the reducer on the outlet will be used for my graveyard scene. Both using only (2) 400W Gemmy foggers. I'll protect the foggers from the elements by putting them inside a small black plastic waste basket.

But anyway, long story short reversing the Vortex design works with an Igloo Ice Cube cooler and I assume would work with any cooler.


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## Vlad

Hi Fright Zone. I've followed the discussion both here and the other forum, and I do appreciate your going into detail on your findings. If you could just clarify something for me I'd appreciate it. I know that people have reversed using the inlets as outlets. When doing so, has anyone tried moving the larger expansion area space to the top of the cooler when doing this, or have you all left the small space on top of the ice, and the larger expansion zone below it?


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## heresjohnny

Thats an excellent question Vlad, I would also like to know that. I assumed it would be on the top when Otaku originally described the modification (on this thread at least)


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## Fright Zone

Hi Vlad, nice to see familar names from the other forum. Yes, I left the insides as they were when I used the reverse inlet. My ice tray was in the 1/3 top portion of the cooler. In order to do what you're proposing, you'd simply take the ice tray out and pour the ice into the bottom of the cooler. I'd guess the amount of ice could be at any level 1/3 of the cooler capacity or higher. The only problem would be that ice would get into the outlet and eventaully melt into water. That pipe is just a short 4-5" x 2" dia PVC right at the bottom of the cooler. I made that particular hole 3-1/8" from the base of the cooler to the center of the pipe, because that's the measurement to the center of the nozzle on my 400W Gemmy Mini, including its feet and the measurement of it being protected inside a plastic waste basket, or set on top of 1/2" thick wood to get it off the ground. You could put wire mesh in front of the opening inside so the ice doesn't get into the duct or start falling out of it. Or make the PVC pipe a lot longer going towards the back if you tried the ice on the bottom of the cooler. Or for that matter put a 90 degree bend facing downward to try that. I can't do that because my hole that's already drilled is too low.

But really I don't know that it would make a substantial difference. The difference seems to be whether you use a psuedo venturi or a 3" gap to the inlet no matter which inlet you use. The 3" gap between teh fogger and the inlet seems to have a higher velocity. The pseudo venturi gave my fog a slower, tigher output and more "controlled" presence for lack of a better explaination. The difference is more obvious when the chiller is hooked up to a plastic cauldron via an aluminum dryer duct. The fog shoots up and out of the cauldron a lot more in a thick billowing cloud. You get more fog on the ground around the base of the cauldron as well. Whereas using the pseudo venturi at the inlet with that same set-up, the fog rolls up & over the cauldron more and lingers in conjunction with the Mini Mister inside of the cauldron, which is my intended effect. The trash can was even more forceful and out of control fog through the cauldron. It looked more like a steam train than a fogging/misting cauldron. So I plan on using the reverse inlet set-up, the ice on top 1/3 inside the Igloo Cube Cooler and the dryer duct hooked to the lower outlet going to the cauldron with a Mini Mister inside to pick up the slack and keep the effect going when the 400W Gemmy is reheating. The trash can wiht the 3 to 2" PVc reducer on the outlet will be behind a 32" tombstone and providefog for a graveyard.

Note that the Igloo Cube and the trash can are the first and only chillers I've made, and I like the way they work with the 400W Gemmy for the small yard I have to cover, and th eintended effects. I have no other larger cooler or higher wattage foggers this year to test. But I guess if it works as planned with the small 48 qt Igloo Cube containing about 14-20lbs of ice and a small Walmart fogger, then the design should work at any size. Although the Vortex Mini is the only one in their Vortex product line they recommend a low wattage fogger with. My guess is a 1000W fogger with the 48qt Igloo Cube Chiller (which is roughly the size of the Vortex Mini) would push through the chiller too fast for it to have the intended effect. Whereas gmacted used a 120qt Coleman with a constant 1000W fogger and 60lbs of ice successfully last Halloween. So the higher wattage fogger worked with that size and capacity. Furthermore, someone like gmacted or Zombie-F who already have a Regular Fog On the Rocks Chiller design would have to modify theirs with the 90 degree elbow joint PVC poking through the harware mesh to mimick the Vortex design, to see if it works any better or worse with those sizes and wattages. I decided not to get a 1000W fogger this year. (2) 400W Gemmy's will work this year.


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## Brad Green

As posted earlier, I built one from a 60 qt. Igloo Cube, using a little different method. I have a 1/3 expansion chamber and 2/3 ice, 2' inlet with a rearward facing 90 that has a flap valve installed (stops any backflow during fogger cycling). The outlet is 2" into an immediate 90 which runs to within 1" of the cooler's lid. I really got a reduced flow trying to use a pseudo venturi, and found that the Vortex recommended air gap method worked best. On mine, I really didn't get much advantage reversing inlet/outlet with the fogger (maybe the rear mount 90?), but overall. this model outperformed any of the other website coolers I've built (mostly all that was accomplished with the other "experiments" was a dead cooler). I am also using a Gemmy 400w fogger, and despite what Vortex claims, it works VERY well with this larger cooler setup. One last thing, I inadvertantly left out FrightZone when I credited research of this design idea, and for that I apologize. I have followed FrightZone and Gmacted's discussion's on both this and another forum for a while now, and it was FrightZone who brought up the Igloo Cube idea ( I just happened to have one sitting around idle). Thanks to you both, and it really is a good idea you have there FrightZone.


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## Vlad

Actually, what I was thinking, is that you'd need a mesh ice tray right at level of the top of the outlet( formerly the inlet ) tube. It was always my understanding, that it was necessary for the fog to be able to expand rapidly and quickly after it came out of the foggers nozzle, in order to produce the most volume. I would then assume that by directing it up the elbowed tube, into a confined space at the top, we would be restricting the amount it could expand, and therefore less volume of fog.

It does seem to me, that the original concept of the new chiller is bass ackwards. If you follow the original concept, and have the fog enter in at the bottom and rise upwards, you seem to be making the fog work against itself. Sure heated fog rises, but some of it will cool right away, and want to sink, or at least stay level, thus fighting against the rest of the fog stream heading upwards. At this point it might be said that forcing the fog to remain in contact with the ice longer would be good, but the longer the fog is contained, and touching objects such as the cooler walls, mesh grid, and the ice itself, the more likely that it will condense back into a liquid. That's the whole rationale behind not using corrugated piping, an interrupted flow path is not good. Also, the hot fog inlet would be directing hot fog against the downward outlet pipe, and heating it, that can't be good.


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## Vlad

Brad, you're losing me when you get to here........" 2' inlet with a rearward facing 90" I assume you mean 2", but I don't understand what a rearward facing 90 degree elbow is. Do you have any pics or drawings of it?


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## Fright Zone

Update: Here's links to some construction photos in the order I took them until I get a chance to organize them.

PHOTO 01 Inside the Igloo Cube Cooler ice tray measures 1/3 the inside height

PHOTO 02 The width of the ice tray

PHOTO 03 Label of the 48qt Igloo Cube Cooler I used. $15 at Walmart. They also sell a 60qt Roller with wheels BUT the insides are not square because it needs to accommodate the wheel wells.

PHOTO 04 Cooler filled with approx. 15 lbs. of ice in the top 1/3rd on the tray.

PHOTO 05 The inside of the cooler without ice. this shows the hardware mesh attached to the 3/4" PVC with black twist ties. I later added two ties to the mesh as hooks so I can lift the tray out easier if I have to. Also note the 90 degree elbow.

PHOTO 06 shows the lower 2" PVC hole cut with a 2-3/8" Rigid Hole Saw drill bit from Home Depot for $12. Note I used my Dad's higher powered electric drill instead of my cordless 9.6v which I don't think would have cut through on one try.

PHOTO 07 Shows the PVC that's about 1" from the lid is also off-center in the farthest corner from the other PVC hole (which would be located underneath the camera in this photo). I took that cue from the Vortex PDF manual photo. I don't know the exact reason for it being placed off-center other than it simply doesn't line up directly with the other PVC hole.

PHOTO 08 Close-up of the 90 degree bend PVC and how far away it is from the hole in the cooler.

PHOTO 09 Painted with Krylon Fusion. No runs, no drips, no errors. Oh wait, I mean no sanding and no primer needed. Also shows storage caps on the outlet and inlet.

PHOTO 10 The 26 gallon thin walled plastic trash can for $5 at Walmart. This shows the 3x2 PVC reducer on the 4" dia aluminum dryer duct outlet I was talking about. That little bit greatly enhances the fog output to my liking. Although I didn't try a smaller reducer on the Igloo Cube Chiller and don't know if I will, it's still worth noting.

Unfortunately the video is dark at night on my porch and doesn't translate well to small Internet files, so I can't show you the results, but trust me these designs work.


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## Brad Green

Sorry Vlad, fingers faster than brain, yes, that's suppossed to be inches, not feet! Not the first time I've done that. As to the rearward 90, I don't have a picture, but in way of explanation, my inlet to the chiller is a 2" pvc threaded male adaptor which runs through the lower section of the cooler wall (about 3inches up and centered) but instead of a straight shot into the expansion area, I used a 2" 90 facing the back wall of the cooler. Pretty much the same idea seen in the Fog on the Rocks version. I basically built a hybrid of the two designs.


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## Fright Zone

Update: I can't edit until I make it to 10 posts, so sorry I didn't get to read the latest posts prior to my last one listing the photos. 

Thanks Brad for the acknowledgement. I do remember you were talking about installing a flap. I'm glad people are experimenting with variations on this idea. In the long run I don't know if any modification will "significantly" add to the fog output volume or thickness or velocity or coverage etc. but you never know.

Vlad, I see what you mean. I could easily (that is when I get time next week) replace the 3/4" PVC tray with shorter legs and try what you suggest to make the ice chamber larger and the oulet chamber smaller. I didn't use any screws or PVC glue, so I can just take it apart. And I think I have enough ice. Otherwise a Burger King around here is selling a 10lb bag for 99 cents. The manager said she'd just give me one after I explained I was making a Halloween fog chiller. I'd have to see if that amount of ice buckles the hardware mesh significantly or if I need to add more twist ties or anohter layer of mesh to hold it. I'm guessing that'd be approx. 25-30 lbs of ice.


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## Vlad

I know it's me not getting this Brad. I understand now that it's just an elbow pointing at the back of the cooler, but why? Is it to keep the hot fog from directly hitting the downward outlet pipe?


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## Vlad

Actually FZ, I think you're missing my point, you would still use the same amount of ice, but by dropping the mesh, and using the same amount of ice, you'd be reducing the size of the exhaust area in the bottom (where space isn't needed), and increasing the upper expansion area. It's not increasing or decreasing any of the space or ice, just rearranging their distribution And of course you're brilliant, all you need to do is shorten the legs.


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## Brad Green

More or less an attempt to keep the fog from rolling back out of the cooler between fogger cycles ( about 30 sec. apart). That's why I ended up using a flapper valve. I got a very good output on the exit port, but it was also rolling out the inlet port while the fogger heated back up. I was just attempting to keep the chilled fog in the cooler until the next pressurized blast pushed it out the proper port. I have an interior shot posted now, lot of reflection, but it should give you a better idea of my layout, and yes, I realize it's a bit over-engineered, I'm anal, what can I say?


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## Vlad

Ahhhh, I see said the blind man. I just didn't understand the idea behind the turn. I'm going to be putting one of these together this weekend if inventory at work doesn't run into Sunday also, so I'm just getting it all straight in my head what everyones theory is. I'm leaning towards sticking with the law of physics though, keeping the hot things rising ( by venting the inlet directly to a top expansion chamber), and cold things falling ( by allowing the cold fog to settle through the ice and out the bottom of the cooler. I'm also thinking of putting some pipe insulation onto the incoming and upwards pointing pipe. That should keep any condensation from forming, and keeping the two worlds apart.


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## Fright Zone

Vlad, I got ya. I'll try it next week. I have two peices of 3/4" PVC left and the measurements come out to 1/2 the height of the cooler which means 7-3/8" height instead of 10-1/8" from the bottom of the cooler to the top of the ice tray. Two peices on either corner should be enough to support that tight square frame for a test. I'll use about 14 lbs of ice like what fits in the 1/3 area right now.

I'm wondering if the way I'm doing it now is working because of the force and velocity of the fog as it enters straight up the 90 degree turn inside the cooler before it hits the closed cooler lid. I tested it one time with the cooler lid open and man does it shoot straight up out of that 90 degree bend. that's telling me it's really being forced down and out.

I did also put a P-shaped ruber weather stripping inside where the lid closes since then. But I haven't tested it yet but I didn't really have a lot of problems with significant leakage. It actually didn't leak at all using the reverse inlet solution. It leaked a lot more when I was testing it as the original solution, where the fog enters the 2/3 lower chamber then up through the 1/3 ice chamber to hit the closed lid then down the 90 degree bend and out the side pipe. I don't know if that had a lot to do with the weaker overall output of fog compared to the reverse inlet route. I'll have to test it a few ways next time. And I'll do it during the day so the video will be viewable.

The other thing is that the guys who made the Vortex also made the Fog on the Rocks cooler design, so I'm sure they tried a lot of things to come to those conclusions. Or it may be that the parts they were able to source forced them to design the final Vortex solution a certain way. Maybe that's why they use the 2/3 expansion and 1/3 freezing chamber ratio. You'll notice the Vortex Tidy Cat-type of pail that a line in the mold is 1/3 from the top, which means there's a ledge inside and that probably made it easier to fit a plastic mesh tray right there. Just a guess.

Brad, I'm glad you got to try a 60qt Igloo Ice Cube so we know what that does. And the 90 degree turn with the flap is good to know about. It's good you're tying the 2/3 ice while I'm using the 1/3. I really shouldn't say "anything" we do from here on out will not "significantly" increase the output. Some little thing may in fact do the trick. It does seem we've come up with some alternatives that may work better for one's own situation or intended effect with the 48qt compared to the 60qt and vice versa. One constant so far is we're both using the 400W Gemmy fogger.


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## Otaku

Wow, this feedback is great. Thanks to all for the detailed posts and research. I've got a Chauvet F-1250 fogger coming in a few days that I plan to use with my converted FOTR chiller. I'll try to get a video up after I test it out. After reading about the successful runs with 400 watt machines, the 1200 watt may overpower the capacity of the 52 qt. chiller. I may need to get a bigger ice chest.


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## Fright Zone

I think we need a bigger boat LOL

Target.com is selling a 160qt Igloo MaxCold for $100. I think the ice is supposed to stay good for 5 days. Unless you pump hot fog through it ; )

I almost bought the Chauvet F-1050[/URL. I couldn't decide bewteen that and the 1000W [URL="http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID5064795P2993964-Fog-Machines/Fog-Machine-VEI-V940-Pro-Fogger-1000w-7000cfpm.aspx"]VEI V940 Pro Fogger because a lot of people use and like the VEI's. But the price is almost double. I would think the Chauvet is a good fogger. It'll be good to hear what you think of it. I was afraid a 1000W would cover a larger area . So I went with my old 400W Gemmy and added a new 400W Mini Gemmy on the cheap. My requirements are only an 18ft x 20ft front yard. (Not to vere off topic, but I'm thinking of putting up sheets of black plastic on the sides to contain the low lying fog and also so the T-o-T's don't walk across the yard. I'd put a graveyard fence in the front by the sidewalk though. Cedar Point's Halloweekends uses heavy tarp material to that effect as seen in this Photo. Also note the JOBOX metal container they put the 1400W Lemaitre fog machines in. They drill holes in them for the nozzle and DMX cords. Last year that inspired me to put my 400W Gemmy in black plastic waste basket to protect it from the elements).

FWIW, I also didn't put brass latches on my chiller. I'm not sure it needs it. However, I'll see in the next round of tests whether the weather stripping helps mine or not.


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## gmacted

Welcome Fright Zone.

I tried to send you a PM on Halloween Forum to invite you to Haunt Forum and this thread, but you have PM and e-mail disabled.

Glad you could join us. I find you experiments very interesting.


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## ScareFX

Great thread everyone. Very useful information! Thanks for sharing.


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## malibooman

Ok, here is a thought. I wonder what it would do if you put a 90 degree elbow on the inlet pipe inside to force the fog up through the ice faster. I thought that might keep the fog from coming back out the inlet pipe during recycles.


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## Brad Green

Actually, Malibooman, I did try that method initially and the problem that I ran into was that the hot fog being shot directly at the bottom of the grid caused the ice in that one area to melt alot faster, also tended to "rain" back into the inlet 90 and come out towards the fogger nozzle. That's another reason I turned the 90 to the back of the cooler.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Great information everyone

I purchased the mini last year so I could figure out the system and just about kicked myself when I saw how simple it was. The idea of reversing the flow with hot fog on top, working through the ice layer and out an outlet at the bottom actually hit me yesterday. I guess a day late and a dollar short.

What is the final verdict on this reversal? Did it improve fog volume, density, lower temp, nothing at all?

I seem to get several differenct answers when I read through the post. I made a "Vortex Pro" last year with 4" inlet/outlet using the 40 gal Rubbermaid garbage can from Home Depot. I am going to try the reversal thing as well. Trouble is I have to buy like 60# of ice to fill it up.


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## Vlad

Hi Smelly, I think the key to a true test of reversing the inlet and outlet is to also change the fog expansion area from the bottom to the top, that hasn't been done yet to my knowledge, but it's what I'm hoping to try this weekend.


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## Smelly-Skelly

I thought about this all day and I agree, doing the 2/3 expansion chamber for the hot fog with 1/3 ice. I think I will grab some mesh or chicken wire and put it over the "outlet" pipe so the bottom is full of ice.

I should be able to get 50+ pounds of ice in there. Its just a pain to rebag it all after the test. I guess I could use the extra turkey from last Thanksgiving. LOL


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## Smelly-Skelly

As an after thought, without having to make an ice shelf to hold the ice above the expansion chamber you could actually cut the cost of the unit as well. You should be able to make a 20-40 gallan can chiller for what... maybe $15-30 total? (3" pvc 2 foot length, 90 degree elbow, 3" pvc outlet pipe and the can and a few other odds and ends)


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## shaunathan

this was my big hang up that caused my confusion, I couldn't see the orginal design working well because I didn't think the fog would work through a wall of ice and would take the path of least resistance and just travel back out the inlet pipe, which is why my brain initially reversed it and put the fogger on the outlet.

any tips for cutting into the igloo cooler? (please don't say hole cutters, those things are a little pricy :/


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## Vlad

Try a dremel with the drywall blade.


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## grim reaper

so should i reverse the way they make theres?? i want to know before i cock up my bin.


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## Vlad

It's very much an experimental thing right now Grim, but look at it this way, it works either way you use it. The only thing in question now seems to be whether or not the expansion chambers need to be changed if you use the outlet as an inlet. That change can be made regardless of how you've drilled the holes.


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## grim reaper

ok i get it now i didn't understand some of the other post's properly. thanks


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## Stratusfear02

It's good to see the time and research you all have put into these chillers. I'm a newbie here from Halloweenforum.com. I'll be attempting a vortex style chiller from 5 gallon buckets (they're cheap on construciton sites). The test i will run will be using a 2/3 Xchamber to 1/3 Ice Chamber. the fogger will but a Lite F/X 700w and if there's time i'll try on of my lite F/X 1200W Constant Machines. Now i know someone will say the wattage is too high and will over power the chiller, but if i remember right the wattage is only related to how the heater and "reheat" itself.


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## shaunathan

> PHOTO 03 Label of the 48qt Igloo Cube Cooler I used. $15 at Walmart. They also sell a 60qt Roller with wheels BUT the insides are not square because it needs to accommodate the wheel wells.


Well blast, I bought the step up from this because walmart didn't have any of this smaller 48qt, I got the 90 can model. which is still small mind you by ice chest standards.


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## heresjohnny

Well well, October 1st driving home from lunch and what do I find? Someone throwing out but a 60qt cooler. Now, what on earth could I use that for......


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## shaunathan

holding all that beer you need to get you though prop building


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## Brad Green

Ok, I tested this thing all day and tried every suggestion so far, swapped inlet/outlet, decreased ice level to increase expansion area on the reversed set up, removed the 90 I had on the original inlet, removed the "flapper" valve, filled the ice back up and tried it all again. What I found was that with the set-up I have (60 qt. Igloo w/ wheels), the original Vortex inlet/outlet design with 1/3 expansion and 2/3 ice, filled to within 1" of the top of the pipe, pipe within 2" of the cooler lid, seems to have the best and therefore heaviest output. I had to re-install the "flapper" valve due to a large amount of backflow between fogger cycles. Reversing the orginal set-up, there was virtually no backflow problems, the flow of cooled fog just kept rolling out when the fooger was off, which would lead me to believe that this was the right way to go ( I mean it seemed to be the way the fog wanted to exit on both set-ups, so it just stood to reason), however, I just didn't seem to get as heavy and dense a layout as I did with the original set-up. Doesn't really make sense, but you can't argue with results (I tried both ways about 20 times just to make sure what I was seeing). Maybe it is just the cooler I have, I really can't say, but that is what worked for me. I guess the bottom line on this entire thing is that the Vortex design works, and works well no matter how you use it. Thanks for all the ideas, and I hope to see everyone else's results.


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## grim reaper

made mine today froma small plastic bin need to try with ice soon when the sealant dries


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## shaunathan

yeah my only problem with the orginial design is I can just see all that fog comming out the inlet hole rather than rising through the ice. I may do mine reversed, but you say the orginial way produces thicker fog? that's just odd.. maybe because it's has more ice contact somehow? I need to make this flapper valve if I'm doing it the orginial way I think...


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## Smelly-Skelly

I asked Wil, inventor of the Vortex the following and receive an answer:

It still works, but wont propel the fog as far and create as much fog nor as cold. 

Wil


Wil what happens when you reverse the flow on a Vortex chiller? Use the inlet for the outgoing fog and the outlet for the fog machine. Logic keeps telling it would better as hot air goes up and cold air goes down.


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## Brad Green

Yeah Shaunathan, it does seem to defy all logic, but as they say, facts is facts. The fog does rise through the ice with ease (trust me, I opened it up while the fogger was firing, and it wasn't being slowed down at all), and it literally pours out of the stack pipe. I tried every variation I could think of, and Wil's way just works. I still think the "flapper" valve is a neccessity to avoid a lot of back flow. If your running the unit out in the middle of a graveyard scene, it probably won't matter that much (it will still be coming out in the general area you want covered) my problem is that I will be shooting it out from a covered area, and I don't want the excess fog rolling back into my "behind-the-scenes" area. All that I did for a "flapper" valve was build a very light weight version of the caps that sit on diesel truck stacks (REAL thin aluminum stock and the bottom of a plastic container, hose clamped to the 2" inlet pipe inside the cooler). It has to be very light because a fooger does not have a lot of omph to move anything of any real mass.


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## Fright Zone

@ gmacted - Yeah sorry I generally keep my PM off on forums. Otaku posted about this site and I found this thread you started. Thanks for doing that. It may stay more focused, and not upset anyone that we're not specifically talking about the Vortex products, but home-made imitations instead (what do they expect from a DIY yard haunt forum LOL).

@ Brad - Thanks for all the test results. 

I was out at Cedar Point's Halloweekends for three days so I didn't have time to re-test mine and shoot video during the day. But I plan on it unless something comes up. (Btw, you want fog? They got over 130 1400W and 4400W LeMaitre's constant foggers they rent. Huge gallon jugs of fog juice. They don't use chillers or hazers, but they don't need to. You ride some of those tall rides and see the whole park covered with fog - awesome!).

A quick tip. I use a 1-cup pet food scoop for scooping the ice out of the chillers easily so as not to waste ice after these tests.

I look forward to everyone's Vortex-inspired chiller results.


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## heresjohnny

I cannot tell for sure if anyone has tried moving the expansion chamber to the top, with the inlet shooting into expansion chamder in the top of the cooler, working down through the ice , then out the exit port. To me this is not swapping inlet/outlet of the original design, that would leave little in the way of expansion chamber on top of the ice, I am talking having the 2/3 expansion chamber above the ice. I assume with either a tray to hold the ice just above the exit port, or with screen over the exit port to hold the ice in. Something tells me a tray holding the ice just above the exit port would be good. I THINK this is what Vlad is talking about, and I think Brad Green tried this, just want to make sure before I slice into my cooler.

Thanks for all the info everyone. Now I gotta finish that beer Shaunathan told me to use my cooler for.


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## gmacted

Brad Green said:


> Ok, I tested this thing all day and tried every suggestion so far, swapped inlet/outlet, decreased ice level to increase expansion area on the reversed set up, removed the 90 I had on the original inlet, removed the "flapper" valve, filled the ice back up and tried it all again. What I found was that with the set-up I have (60 qt. Igloo w/ wheels), the original Vortex inlet/outlet design with 1/3 expansion and 2/3 ice, filled to within 1" of the top of the pipe, pipe within 2" of the cooler lid, seems to have the best and therefore heaviest output. I had to re-install the "flapper" valve due to a large amount of backflow between fogger cycles. Reversing the orginal set-up, there was virtually no backflow problems, the flow of cooled fog just kept rolling out when the fooger was off, which would lead me to believe that this was the right way to go ( I mean it seemed to be the way the fog wanted to exit on both set-ups, so it just stood to reason), however, I just didn't seem to get as heavy and dense a layout as I did with the original set-up. Doesn't really make sense, but you can't argue with results (I tried both ways about 20 times just to make sure what I was seeing). Maybe it is just the cooler I have, I really can't say, but that is what worked for me. I guess the bottom line on this entire thing is that the Vortex design works, and works well no matter how you use it. Thanks for all the ideas, and I hope to see everyone else's results.


Did you try the chiller with and without a "pseudo venturi"?

From what I can see in the thread, the "pseudo venturi" may decrease the output. If that is the case, I can't imagine how much fog I will get this year!


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## Otaku

HJ, I did try this variation in my chiller. The ice chest has a concave lid and when combined with an ice level ~2" below the top edge of the chest it makes a sizeable expansion volume. I blasted the fog in through the vertical pipe, and let it come down through the ice. The ice tray level is just above the outlet pipe to maximize the amount of ice I can use. I got way better results with this configuration and of course, no fog leakage from the inlet tube. I also had to install foam weatherstripping in the lid groove to prevent leakage. I'm going to try to get a video when my new fogger comes in this week. All testing to date has been with a Lite F/X 700 watt.

Edit: I did try this system with and without the "Y" pseudo-venturi. IMO, the fog was thicker without it.


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## heresjohnny

Otaku said:


> HJ, I did try this variation in my chiller. The ice chest has a concave lid and when combined with an ice level ~2" below the top edge of the chest it makes a sizeable expansion volume. I blasted the fog in through the vertical pipe, and let it come down through the ice. The ice tray level is just above the outlet pipe to maximize the amount of ice I can use. I got way better results with this configuration and of course, no fog leakage from the inlet tube. I also had to install foam weatherstripping in the lid groove to prevent leakage. I'm going to try to get a video when my new fogger comes in this week. All testing to date has been with a Lite F/X 700 watt.
> 
> Edit: I did try this system with and without the "Y" pseudo-venturi. IMO, the fog was thicker without it.


Awesome, thanks Otaku. When you say better results, is this compared to the original vortex design? I ask because it sounds like Brad Green got best results with the original design, it is just not clear to me that he compared it to the one we are discussing (expansion chamber on top).


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## Fright Zone

Yeah, what are we considering the "Original" Vortex design, Wil's Fog on the Rocks Chiller shown Fog on the Rocks pictures by Zombie-F - Photobucket and here by gmacted?

Because the Fog on the Rocks Chiller looks to have a 1/3 fog expansion chamber from the inlet at the bottom to a 2/3 ice freezing chamber at the top ot the outlet at the bottom underneath it...

Whereas the Vortex Mini and Fusion products look to have a 2/3 fog expansion chamber from the inlet at the bottom up to a 1/3 ice freezing chamber at the top to the 90 degree elbow outlet right under the lid(?)

Does anyone who owns the Vortex or Mini have measurements for the overall container, the height of the ice freezing chamber compared to the fog expansion chamber and the gap bewteen the lid and the outlet PVC?


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## Brad Green

Let me try to clarify what I was talking about. By original Vortex design, I mean the inlet/outlet configuration that Wil designed (short, straight inlet pipe, longer, 90 degreed outlet pipe). I did try the set up both ways with a 2" pseudo venturi and it really cut down on the output both times. My set up mimics the fog-on-the-rocks design when it comes to expansion/ice chamber layout (1/3 inlet expansion-2/3 ice chamber), I simply reduced the amount of ice in the upper chamber to give it more of a 1/3-1/3-1/3 layout for some of the tests. I was only using a 400w Gemmy for my tests, so Otaku may have gotten different result with the bigger fogger. But I did try all the set-ups described here and found that shooting into the lower chamber and allowing the fog to rise up through the ice and then down and out the outlet pipe to produce the best results with the design I have. It seems like everyone here is getting very good results with this unit no matter what little deviations are tossed in. I have ruined a BUNCH of coolers with other designs I've pulled from the web, and I wouldn't be afraid to recommend this design to anyone here. It works, that much you can be assurred, you just have to tinker with it a bit to find out which way works best for your application.


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## Otaku

heresjohnny said:


> Awesome, thanks Otaku. When you say better results, is this compared to the original vortex design? I ask because it sounds like Brad Green got best results with the original design, it is just not clear to me that he compared it to the one we are discussing (expansion chamber on top).


Yes, better when compared to the original Vortex design. The fog was definitely colder and stayed down until it dissipated. It also had greater density, IMO. This will be the configuration I'll be using, unless the new 1200 watt fogger I'm getting forces a change.


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## Fright Zone

Brad, that clarifies your set-up, and with 2" between the closed lid and the top of the outlet pipe. Thanx! It makes sense thinking of it as 1/3, 1/3 & 1/3. It gives equal time to the fog expansion, the fog freezing ice chamber and the chance to collect the chilled fog before it exits the chiller.


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## heresjohnny

Otaku said:


> Yes, better when compared to the original Vortex design. The fog was definitely colder and stayed down until it dissipated. It also had greater density, IMO. This will be the configuration I'll be using, unless the new 1200 watt fogger I'm getting forces a change.


Okay, I looked at the links and it looks like we are talking 4 different configurations here LOL. Damn Haunters. Brad shoots fog up through the ice and takes indirect output from the back wall of the ice chest at the bottom. The Zombie design shoots it in, lets it expand and cool, then lets it back out with straight pipes. Vortex takes the input straight into an expansion chamber at the botton, the outloet takes fog from the very top that has passed through the ice. Otaku moves the ice down and puts the expansion chamber on top, shots the input up into the expansion chamber, then takes output from under the ice. I'm tempted to sketch up 4 diagrams tonight and post just to help clarify all of this.


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## JustMatt

*The Otaku design*

I hacked one together on Sunday just to test the principle. Even with a very small bucket, whatever ice was in the fridge, and a truly lousy screen it worked very well.

Inlet pipe at the bottom, 90 degree turn upward, pipe ends about 2" short of the top lid, the Expansion chamber + ice is about 1/2 of the bucket, the bottom half is just open space with an exit hole cut directly opposite the inlet.

For the P.O.C. I didn't even use wire mesh, just a piece of cardboard with a bunch of big holes drilled in it.

There was a small empty plastic paint bottle to help hold up the ice. It was kind of in front of the outlet but didn't seem to slow down the fog at all.

I used a VEI-940 so there was a lot of pressure, even with a 1" gap between the fogger and the bucket.

There was no backflow and the fog just poured out of the bottom of the bucket. It stayed closer to the ground than without the ice.

I could probably use a larger bucket, but I'll test with a real metal grate first.


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## Brad Green

Nope, not quite right. I guess we've gotten you confused here. The way I have my setup is exactly the same as the one you describe for the Vortex. Fog into an expansion chamber at the bottom, outlet takes fog from the very top that has passed through the ice. No differences in design at all. Actually, with the exception of the size of the various ice/expansion chambers (of which there has been a great many variations), the layout on everyone's here as far as design goes is exactly the same. Short 2" inlet - outlet that goes into a 90 and then straight to the top of the cooler an inch or so from the bottom of the lid. Again, with the exception of the size of either the ice chamber or the expansion chamber, the only other deviation from this basic design is which of the two ports you shoot the fog into to get the best results. Shaunathan drew a pretty good picture of the thing on an earlier post here. Sorry for the confusion (I have tried about everything we can think of here, and from the posts, it probably sounds like I've built half a dozen of these coolers for the tests). Unless I am way off here, we've all built (within an inch or so) the same type cooler, or modified an existing cooler to come within the parameters of the original Vortex design.


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## Vlad

Hi HJ, I know what you mean, lol. I'm discounting any discussion here on the fog on the rocks chiller design. As a basic design it was great for it's time, but it's pretty much accepted that once trash can chillers and bin coolers came around, it was obsolete.

I'm still not certain from what I'm reading that Brad has actually "fully" increased the expansion chamber in the top of the cooler. From what I'm reading he only dropped the top of the pipe from one inch to two inches when he was reversing the flow of the original design. Correct me in very plain terms if I'm wrong here please. The whole concept of discussing the inner chambers as divided into 1/3s would seem wrong to me. There should be no need of a bottom third on the reversed design at all. At that point, the fog is as chilled as it's going to get, and just needs a fast out.

Otaku seems to have actually done what I'm planning on, which is making a very large expansion zone on top, and minimizing the bottom collection and outflow area as much as possible. And his reports seem to state what would make the most sense from a law of physics point of view, which is that making the changes to reversed flow with all expansion room left on the top, and little or no accumulation room on the bottom, produces the most low lying fog. Thanks Otaku, very clearly spoken as usual.

My only other variations that I'm considering, are as I stated, to use pipe insulation on the upwards inlet pipe, and my latest thought, which is to use a 45 degree elbow on the inlet pipe to cut down on turbulence and drag on the incoming fog.


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## heresjohnny

I'm following you Vlad, and I agree with you. I'm post those pictures, should help clear it up for everyone. I plan on building the Otaku idea also.


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## Lunatic

*60 qt Igloo cube*

Hi Vlad, HJ, Otaku & others,

I've been reading your discussion thread for about a week now and I must say that I'm impressed with the ideas. I have never built a chiller before and came across the 60 qt igloo about a week ago at Wally World and thought, gee that would probably make a nice chiller without really knowing what the heck I was talking about. Then I get on the web and find you guys discussing it and the designs related to it. I bow to thee.

Everytime I had a question in mind someone would bring up the point. The brainstorming is quite uplifting for such a newbie. Vlad, I agree with you about the design of your last post with using a larger expansion chamber on top then moderate ise chamber and then small exhaust chamber at the bottom. It makes complete sense to me to go with the reverse vortex method. But then again WHAT THE HECK DO I KNOW? Oh, did I tell you that I bought two without a plan?

I want to convert a 60 qt Igloo the same way but I want to be absolutely sure I am doing the right thing before I hack it up. It sounds to me that it would work just fine the way its described. One question though. Just like some past chillers, why can't you place the fogger on top of the cooler to get it off the ground and direct the fog into the top using two elbows blowing into the top side and forget the 90 degree inlet through the wire mesh?


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## JustMatt

Vlad,

Hmm, the 45 degree (instead of 90) might be a nice idea, I will say that the fog seems to shoot out the top when the lid is off and it doesn't effect the fog at all.

In my weenie test I got the feeling that the fog wasn't completely cool. It was about 65 out and a bit windy but the fog should have hugged the ground more. Of course, my bucket is pretty small. For the next test I'm going to dump a bunch of ice in the very bottom of the bucket. Any fog that doesn't leave right away will get some extra lovin'.

An advantage to the small bucket is that the fog still had a lot of velocity when it exited, reaching a good 10 feet (in the wind) before it started drifting.

I've also been thinking about a modification for the outlet pipe. Get some smooth alum. ducting from the home store and place it inside of a U-shaped channel. Surround it with ice. Viola, extra cooling.


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## JustMatt

*Re: Lunatic*

Technically there's no reason. I think the only downsides would be that you have to prop the cooler up and that the fog would backflow.


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## Brad Green

Okay, I guess I'm not being very clear, so let me try to remedy that. The cooler I have is a "cube" exactly 16 3/4" X 14 1/2 that is 17" deep, lid bottom to floor. The configuration I built has a 7" deep lower 'expansion' chamber (fog in) and a 9 3/4" upper chamber (ice area). The outlet pipe (the one attached to the outlet 90) is exactly 1 3/4" from the bottom of the lid. I never changed the pipe height in any of the tests I did, as these seemed to be in rough perimeters of what everyone else here was doing. For my tests, I merely lowered the ice tray to give me the "1/3,1/3,1/3 idea a try. What that really amounted to was a 5" deep lower chamber (couldn't go much lower and not be right on top of the inlet pipe), and a 12" upper (ice) area that I filled with 6" of ice which left an open area of 6" in the top of the cooler. At that point, I reversed where I had the fogger so that it was blowing in the "out" pipe (the one with the 90 going to the top of the cooler) and let the fog expand in the open 6" area, drift through the 6" ice area, and finally exit out the lower 5" space. All of my tests were just a matter of moving the ice level and changing the entry point of the fogger. Beyond that, only a pseudo venturi, an un-needed 90 on the traditional inlet pipe, and finally a flapper valve were used. The basic configuration never changed.


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## Lunatic

Thanks for responding JM. 

I think that I would have to prop the fogger up anyway being on the ground so placing it on top of the cooler wouldn't be a big deal. I don't quite understand why adding the fog directly to the top of the cooler would backflow worse than the 90 degree inlet on the bottom side. Wouldn't the 90 degree inlet fog roll back down and out just as easily?


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## Fright Zone

For whatever reason when I tested my 48qt Igloo Ice Cube Cooler chiller and a 400W Mini Gemmy and a 3" gap between the fogger nozzle and the 2" dia PVC inlet (no matter which one it was, the lower straight pipe or the 90 degree bend pipe), I got no backflow at all. It only backflowed when I used a psuedo venturi on either inlet.

I'm also thinking about trying this idea on the outlet: I noticed that the manufacturer chiller products they call low lying foggers use a thin vent directed downward for their outlet. Alhtough those are much smaller and the ice chamber is right next to the nozzle inside the unit. Gemmy 400W low lying fogger example, Mister Kool example, and the original home made trash can Ghosts of Halloween chiller example using a slit cut out of a cardboard box.

Sidenote, I ran across Ultra-Flat Black Krylon Camoflauge spray paint that uses their plastic adhering Fusion technology. I only found it at one Walmart ,which is in a rural area where hunting is big. It's not even on Krylon's web site. I had used Krylon Fusion Satin Black on my Igloo Cube Chiller last week because I can't find flat black anywhere, before I found this Ultra-Flat product.


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## JustMatt

Lunatic,

Oh, because the fog drops a little bit after hitting the ice in the top expansion chamber. With only an inch or two between the top of the pipe and the lid there's not much room for the fog to settle back down the inlet tube. 

If you have the inlet at the top of the bucket I think the fog may just roll back out.

Of course, YMMV and I could be wrong!


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## heresjohnny

Okay, here is a picture if what I THINK everyone is talking about


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## Brad Green

The first one (Vortex) is what I built. Never deviated from the design, just changed the size of the areas (expansion,ice,upper area) and the postition of the fogger.


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## Lunatic

JM, Thanks for the input. That makes sense. i'll keep the fogger on the ground.

HJ, Nice diagrams. That is a great reference for us all.


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## NickG

I'm almost done with my mini vortex clone (though about 3" shorter) looks like it can be made for about $10 with a square kitty litter pail. I'm using 2" pvc plumbing (3 splices, 1 elbow and about 14" of pipe) two 1x2s to support the grate and a grate made of 3 layers of chicken wire. I just have to glue it all together and paint the outside black. using 1/3 ice, 2/3 expansion the ice area is 11cm tall.


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## Otaku

HJ, you got it right. The Otaku drawing is exactly what I built.

Lunatic, the double-elbow inlet you described is kind of like the design on the www.GotFog.com site. That design allows the fogger to be placed on the top of the cooler, but the fog just blows straight through a wire screen surrounded by ice. I used that design for a couple of years and as long as the fog bursts are short, it works OK. Minimizing the number of bends (resistance to flow) is an advantage.


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## Fright Zone

Here's a link to a PDF of a simple diagram of the one that I built and the design I like so far. PDF LINK

I like the intended outlet as the inlet because it produces more fog for me from a 400W Gemmy Mini. I also like a 3" gap between the fogger nozzle and the inlet better than the psuedo venturi. It produces thicker fog. BUT I don't mind the psuedo venturi when I hook this chiller up to a plastic cauldron to get a slow billowing, overflow effect. For a straight low lying ground effect using a 400W Gemmy, I'll use a 26 gallon trash can chiller using 4" dia x 16ft of aluminum dryer duct with a 3x2 PVC reducer on the 4" dia outlet.

I want to try lowering the hardware mesh ice tray inside the Igloo Cube Cooler like Vlad suggested and Brad had tried with his 60qt. I haven't gotten a chance. My ice tray would be about half the height of the cooler because I'd take it down to where the 90 degree elbow joint joins the PVC pipe. It would roughly look like this PDF LINK


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## TheReaper

For those of you who didn't get to look at the Vortex Manual online before "all" the links were taken down (like me)...

I found it and on deathlord's site of all places...

so you can actually still click to it from http://www.deathlord.net/Products/prodfog.htm at the end of the second paragraph. The PERIOD on the last sentence which reads "Three US Patents pending. Full 90 Day Warranty." is a link to the JPG of the manual.

it links to http://www.deathlord.net/Products/Pics/vortex_instruction_manual.jpg

So until that disappears too, you have a legitimate link to the manual.

And i'd have to say after seeing the manual, if i paid that much for the thing i'd feel a little cheated, especially the pro model $450 !!
On the other hand I can't blame him for wanting to make a penny off all the R&D he's been doing for everyone the last 10 years...

Oh well, i'll make one of the designs talked about here this week as well, i'll report back my experiences of course...

Happy Hauntings...


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## krypt

why you guys making this so complicated. Here's all i did ,two four inch collars fill the igloo with lots of ice...fog goes in one end hot exits cold no need for a maze in the chamber..... fog will find a way out  What exactly does the 90 on the inlit side do? i didnt use one on mine and it works fine ....somtimes little bit blow back but not enough too get excited about. Is that why its on the inlit side so fog doesnt come back out? and i dunno if this has been brought up or not but the bigger chamber the better it might take a few to fill but when it does you have more on demand.


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## Lunatic

Thanks Otaku for the response and the design. It makes sense the way it is set up. I will use the fogger on the ground. I just thought it would be good to get the fogger up and out of harms way, especially if it's wet.


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## Lunatic

*60 qt igloo cooler*

Just a thought. Since the 60 qt igloo cooler is close in size to the Vortex Fusion, would 3" pvc tubing (like the Fusion) work better than 2"? Maybe it would perform less because it could potentially reduce the expansion pressure and create less velocity. Has anyone tried this before with this size cooler?


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## Fright Zone

I put my 400W fogger in a black plastic waste basket I got at Lowes to protect it on the ground. I then put a small 1/2" thick peice of wood under the end since a waste basket is tapered.

I also thought that the 60qt Igloo Cube would benefit from the 3" dia PVC since it's roughly the same size as the Vortex Fusion because according to the Vortex instruction manual the Fusion uses 3" dia PVC, whereas my 48qt Igloo Cube is roughly the size of the Vortex Mini which uses 2". But Brad Green has had success with the smaller 2" dia PVC on a 60qt Igloo cube. But as long as people are having fun experimenting, I'd say it makes sense if you're doing a 60qt from scratch use 3" dia PVC, alhtough the hole saw and PVC are more expensive.


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## Smelly-Skelly

If anyone is interested I think this is the site where you can get the Fusion size bucket (13 gallon). It has the demensions listed as well as price. I calculated about 4091 cubic inches of interior space in the bucket.

http://www.containerandpackaging.com/item.asp?item=P113


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## JustMatt

I guess I'm doing a modified Otaku because my ice is on top.


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## Fright Zone

I had looked for those pails also but they seemed to be a little small for the Fusion. FrightProps.com told me in the past that rough dimensions would be:

Vortex Mini is approx. 12w x 18h x 12d

Vortex Fusion is approx. 18w x 24h x 18d

Has anyone who owns them measured them?

Those containerandpackaging.com 13 gallon pails are 13.25w x 19h x 16.25d


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## TheReaper

Fright Zone said:


> I had looked for those pails also but they seemed to be a little small for the Fusion. FrightProps.com told me in the past that rough dimensions would be:
> 
> Vortex Mini is approx. 12w x 18h x 12d
> 
> Vortex Fusion is approx. 18w x 24h x 18d
> 
> Has anyone who owns them measured them?
> 
> Those containerandpackaging.com 13 gallon pails are 13.25w x 19h x 16.25d


i think that containerandpackaging.com is a dead ringer. The frightprops measurements would indicate the fusion is a square, but it definitely appears to be more of a rectangle, and even when you account for the pipe sticking out, it sticks out an end and a side, making it still a rectangle. Perhaps the frightprops measurements were of the shipping box, that would account for the extra space on sides and lots of space top/bottom for foam packaging....

maybe that is it... sure looks like it, but i think a cooler would still work better LOL


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## Fright Zone

Yeah that's the thing, a cooler would obviously keep the ice colder longer. But you can only source so many plastic pails that aren't insulated I suppose is why they produce the Vortex with the pail to increase profits.

I'd still like someone who owns a Fusion or Mini to post measurements so we know for sure.


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## JustMatt

Based on my brief test I think the heat of the fog is going to have more impact than the external temperature, so insulation isn't as necessary.


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## NickG

Well, I finished my kitty litter bucket chiller. I actually went to petsmart and found one of the taller pails and bought that... (needed some anyway) it works pretty well, I tested it out with the ice area a little over 1/2 full. I was using my fx-800 (700w) fogger and the fog hugged the floor for about 12 feet and after that it was hanging out around waist high. definitely much better than straight out of the fog machine, and it does feel pretty cool as it exits the outlet.

the pail is 21" high, 11" long and 9" wide. (inside dimensions) and it cost about $8 to make...


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## airscapes

Fright Zone said:


> I put my 400W fogger in a black plastic waste basket I got at Lowes to protect it on the ground. I then put a small 1/2" thick peice of wood under the end since a waste basket is tapered.
> 
> I also thought that the 60qt Igloo Cube would benefit from the 3" dia PVC since it's roughly the same size as the Vortex Fusion because according to the Vortex instruction manual the Fusion uses 3" dia PVC, whereas my 48qt Igloo Cube is roughly the size of the Vortex Mini which uses 2". But Brad Green has had success with the smaller 2" dia PVC on a 60qt Igloo cube. But as long as people are having fun experimenting, I'd say it makes sense if you're doing a 60qt from scratch use 3" dia PVC, alhtough the hole saw and PVC are more expensive.


Any input on this Brad?? I am about to cut my nice new 60qt cooler and have both 2" and 3" parts sitting in front of me.. shall I go with the 3" or 2"??

One thought is the 3" would let more fog exit faster.. but maybe not be as cold? The 3" pvc also takes up more ice room in the chiller..

What do you all think??


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## Fright Zone

@ NickG - I'm glad you found a large pail that looks like the Vortex Fusion so we know what that does for a DIY chiller version. Thanks for the dimensions.

@ airscapes - I still don't know the exact size of the actual Vortex Mini or Fusion products until someone posts them, but it's an educated guess that the 60qt Igloo Cube Cooler is roughly the size of the Fusion, their manual calls for 3" PVC attachments, and more importantly no one has yet tried the 3"dia PVC with the DIY 60qt Cube Cooler, so I'd recommend you use the 3" dia PVC. But Vortex also recommends a higher wattage fogger from 600 to 1000 watts for use with the Fusion. I don't know what wattage fogger you'll be using or what bearing that really has on 3" PVC and a 60qt Cube Cooler. Also remember that a 2" PVC hole really needs a 2-3/8" hole saw to account for the outside diameter of the PVC. I don't know what size hole saw 3" PVC pipe would need.


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## Smelly-Skelly

I purchased the mini last year but turned around and sold it on ebay. I wanted to see how it worked and build my own bigger unit. I built one using the 32 gallon Rubbermaid industrial trash can from HD. I used 4" piping all around (inlet / outlet).

When testing it last year it seemed to me this sizing allowed the fog to roll through the cooler too quickly, thus not cooling it as much as it could. I was thinking of experimenting with it this year. Maybe use some cardboard to make the 4" outlet only 3" (just cut the cardboard to cover the pipe and leave a 3" hole) and do the same for the inlet and then both.

I am thinking about building another using either a cheap 20 gallon or 32 can again but with 3" piping. If I remember correctly the "industrial" can was about $25-28. The cheaper cans are about $11.

I was using a Chauvet F-1250 fogger, but I have not been impressed with this fogger as it has to recycle too often.


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## airscapes

Fright Zone said:


> @ airscapes - I still don't know the exact size of the actual Vortex Mini or Fusion products until someone posts them, but it's an educated guess that the 60qt Igloo Cube Cooler is roughly the size of the Fusion, their manual calls for 3" PVC attachments, and more importantly no one has yet tried the 3"dia PVC with the DIY 60qt Cube Cooler, so I'd recommend you use the 3" dia PVC. But Vortex also recommends a higher wattage fogger from 600 to 1000 watts for use with the Fusion. I don't know what wattage fogger you'll be using or what bearing that really has on 3" PVC and a 60qt Cube Cooler. Also remember that a 2" PVC hole really needs a 2-3/8" hole saw to account for the outside diameter of the PVC. I don't know what size hole saw 3" PVC pipe would need.


Well, I have a 1200 Watt fogstorm that is suposed to stay hot at all times, no warmup time after it is up to temp. So I think I am good as far as that goes. I to am wondering if the fog will exit to fast.
Far as holesaw is concerned.. using a rotozip rather than a holesaw so no problem there.
Just hate to experiment if the 2" works really well.. time is sort and still lots to do..


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## Lunatic

*60 qt Igloo Cube with 2" or 3" PVC*

I too am very curious about the performance of using 3" pvc instead of the 2" in the 60 qt Igloo Cube with wheels. I will be using an FX700 watt fogger which may benefit from the 3" over the 2". I understand, if I'm not mistaken, that Brad has had great success with the 2" using a 400 watt fogger.

My thought is on one hand the 2" may produce the ideal pressure, expansion & velocity that is so desirable but on the other hand why does Vortex use 3" for that similar size container? I would think that using a higher watt fogger would benefit from the larger 3" piping, as Vortex suggests intheir literature. But wow that size piping for the 60qt cooler looks huge so I don't know what's best.

I have been incredibly indecisive about the two pipe sizes but I just simply might be over thinking it. You know what they say, measure twice and cut once. Cutting a 2" hole larger to accomodate a 3" is difficult so I want to feel good about what I'm doing. Help!:googly:

FYI - The 3" pvc has an O.D. of 3.5".

One more thing, can anyone tell me why the Vortex chiller design has the in & out pipes entering the cooler at a 90 degree angle instead of entering at opposite sides of the container? Is it a performance issue? Brad (anyone), did you find it necessary to do it this way?

Thanks


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## Smelly-Skelly

I think it ws designed this way for spacing. If everything was lined up and then you put the fogger at one end and an extension on the other to get teh fog into your haunt, the set up would be rather long. Just my.02


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## Brad Green

My 2 cents worth on the 2" vs 3" situation (bear in mind I am using only a 400 watt fogger), as far as it goes for Airscape's project, since you are using a roto-zip, try the 2" first and see if you like the results you get with your larger fogger. It really shouldn't be that big of a problem to increase the hole diameter with that tool if you feel your'e not getting what you like. I'm impressed with the output that I have gotten, and have decided to hold pat with this design layout. Lunatic, since yours may be more difficult to modify with a hole saw, it might be better to see what happens with Airscape's as to whether the 2" works out, or the increase to 3" is merited. Theory is great, but those coolers ain't free! (Trust me, I have more than one totally useless cooler/fogger tucked away in the attic). As to the '90 degree layout', I really don't know, in that I just followed the herd - it worked, and I didn't see any reason to change it. You kinda walk a line with volume verses velocity when you experiment with pipe size. I don't think the setup I'm using is restricting flow in either direction, so for me the 2" size worked out fine.


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## Fright Zone

Re: 3" I want someone to try it since we're experimenting LOL Coolers are all on sale this time of year. I got mine for less than $15.

Re: The Outlet being perpendicular to the Inlet. I think the Fog on the Rocks Chiller using a regular 48qt Coleman rectangular cooler and had the outlet perpendicular to the inlet. It has to do with not wanting fog to go straight thru. But that design was also created prior to any 90 degree bend being added straight to the top. That's how I understand it because here's what Deathlord's archived site says: "It is important here to note as well that the exit for the fog should not be directly across the cooler from the inlet. When I did tested this in prototype I found that if the exit was directly on the other side or even the other end from where the fogger was hooked to, the fog would blow right out of the cooler before expanding fully and also before chilling. So your inlet and outlet should be on right angles from each other."


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## Smelly-Skelly

I just picked up about 20 ft of 3" at a garage sale for $1 so I am willing to try one of the 20 or 32 gallon trash cans if anyone is interested in the results. My investment would be time and about $11 for the can and a few more $$ for the 90 bend etc.

What size say ye?? 20 or 32?


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## Fright Zone

I was talking about trying a 3" PVC pipe into a 6qt Igloo Cube Cooler (since everyone so far has used 2" dia PVC and the Vortex Fusion uses 3" PVC) to see what that would do. The Vortex Pro trash can-looking chiller uses 4" PVC according to the Vortex manual http://www.deathlord.net/Products/Pics/vortex_instruction_manual.jpg


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## Smelly-Skelly

Fright Zone said:


> The Vortex Pro trash can-looking chiller uses 4" PVC according to the Vortex manual http://www.deathlord.net/Products/Pics/vortex_instruction_manual.jpg


That is what I made last year, but it seemed like the large diameter pipe allowed the fog to flow too quicly and not cool enough. I used a 32 gallon can instead of the 40 like the pro with 4" pipe. I was thinking about using a 20 or 32 gallon this year with either 2" or 3" pipe. Maybe I will just use something on the inlet to make it either 3" or 2" so the pressure coming in is less and give the fog more time to chill before hitting the 4" outlet pipe.


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## Vlad

I see the discussion of the fogger design is again merging talk of the converted or copied vortex style design with talk of the fog on the rocks chillers. This is in regards to where to place the outlet. If you're using the concept of piping the fog as in the Vortex, then where you put the inlet/outlet doesn't matter at all. If you're talking about where to put the outlet in a fog on the rocks chiller, you're in the wrong thread, lol.


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## slightlymad

:googly: WOW get busy busy for a few eeks and look what happens Makes me glad there wasnt time to build a chiller yet any body interested in 16' of dryer dcut cheap


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## Fright Zone

As far as I know, the Vortex is the refined Fog on the Rocks design. But the Fog on the Rocks design didn't have the 90 degree PVC piped straight to the top in a separate chamber. I never built one. Just going by the photos of what DIY haunters have built. So I wonder if they just kept that perpendicular inlet-to-outlet aspect as a leftover from the original FotR's deign, which is the prototype of the Vortex Fusion. Or perhaps the perpendicular design is simply because of the size and shape of the tall rectangular Kitty Litter-type of pail they sourced.


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## Vlad

The Fog on the Rocks is a completely different concept in chillers. They are in no way similar. It merely has fog flow into a lower expansion chamber where it met with the cold air falling from the ice above, and then it was pushed out an outlet also in the lower expansion chamber. To try to discuss the two in one thread just won't work.


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## Lunatic

*The 60 qt dilemma con't*

Hi folks, Thanks for the input from everyone. If I forget to give praise or thanks to anyone that deserves the credit, I appologize. It gets kind of confusing following the lengthy thread.

Smelly-Skelly, It makes sense to save space, thanks.

Brad, You're absolutely correct that it can get expensive to test coolers and then just abandon them if they don't perform correctly, which is why I'm asking the people who have the experience. I think I'll take your advice and see Airscape's 3" results before I continue, thanks.

Fright Zone, I wasn't clear on describiing the perpindicular inlet and outlet. My thought is based on the Vortex Fusion design no matter which pipe I use for the inlet. Even if I mounted the pipes on opposite sides of the cooler it would still use the 90 degree to the top of the cooler. So I guess it wouldn't matter seeing that it will pass through the wall of ice then exit the container. Correct if I may be missing soemthing. I guess the best way to evaluate the 3" pvc is to compare it to the 2" using the same size cooler and fogger wattage. I'm very interested in your results, thanks.

Vlad, Yes, I understand your point. I'm forgetting about the fog on the rocks design even though it was good in the past. I'm only building the vortex design since it's the latest and greatest thing. I'm leaning towards the reverse design but it's a minor thought because it can be run either way. Thanks for the input!


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## Fright Zone

I'm not really following why FotR's is a concern or how it's completely different. The trash can chiller is completely different, that's for sure. Because the same person (Wil a.k.a Deathlord) who designed FotR's designed the Vortex and even shows FotR's as a prototype Vortex in a video of low lying fog with a cheap fogger on the Vortex site, and arrived at the Vortex by developing the FotR's first, so there's bound to be some cary over in the design. As far as I've ever known, the Vortex is his final refinement of FotR's. So in response to the inquiry posted here as to why the perpendicular angle is included in the Vortex-style design, one can look back to the FotR as being the beginnings of what ended up being the Vortex solution, which I think have many similarities that I can see, except mainly for the 90 degree bend and the shape of the container. So reasoning out why the perpendicular angle is included in both designs, is it coincidence, serving a funtional purpose or just a left over from the the original step in the process of arriving at the Vortex design? I don't think we have to worry about this turning into a FotR's thread. That design is history, but an important step in figuring out how to get fog to lie low, that ended up being the Vortex which we're enamoured with and trying to DIY duplicate. I don't think we'd even be trying to figure out how the Vortex works if so many haunters hadn't built a FotR's and had success, so in effect we're refining our own DIY FotR's to the Vortex refinement. The trash can, that IS a different animal but also gets good results for a DIY. I think from what I've expereinced and seen, these two are the most reliable - the Vortex as the best refinement of the successful FotR's with the mesh ice tray in a cooler and the Trash Can. And to see if an Igloo Ice Cube Cooler will work as well as a Vortex plastic pail if for no other reason than A) It's a cooler and coolers have worked in the past and B) It's a cube shape closer to mimicking the Vortex Mini and Fusion. And then there's the Vortex Pro which happens to use a trash can, but in no way is a DIY trash can chiller imitation because the inner workings are that of the other vortex products.


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## Lunatic

Ya know FZ, your right. I read your last repsonse and I was thinking of the Got Fog design which is a straight line in and out and not the FOTR. Silly newbie that I am. I mean no disrepect to that design because it's a good one. Thanks for correcting me. What I meant to say earlier was that I'm forgetting the got-fog design and going with the Vortex Fusion. It's my first chiller and I'm being a little overly inquisitive.


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## Fright Zone

Ah the wonders of the Internet LOL. I posted shortly after your last post so it looks like as though I was addressing your post alone, when in fact I was mainly addressing Vlad's concern about mentioning Fog on the Rocks. But any past cooler chiller like gotfog.com or FotR's is still valid to bring up because I think we're ultimately building on all those past designs flaws and successes and figuring out why the Vortex seems to work so well, being based on the success and experimentation of the DIY cooler chiller variations. So far so good, even with plastic pails using the same basic internal design and outlets/inlets. I haven't heard anyone report the Vortex-style hasn't worked, whereas other chiller designs in the past have dissapointed some. The real test will be on Halloween and depending on the weather. I'm glad I made the Igloo Ice Cube Vortex-style after some hesitation myself. It's the first chiller I ever actaully made. And then I made the trash can version. But after Brad and Otaku and others made theirs and they reported success with the Igloo Cube Cooler and myself examing Zombie-F's and gmacted FotR's directions photos & video, I was confident to proceed. Now we're in the Vortex-inspired refinement stage to see if the fog output or low lying effect can be improved at all. And I like the trash can design with the aluminum dryer duct, so I'll plan on using both proven designs on Halloween.


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## Moon Dog

Newbie here! 

Well, a newbie to this forum, not to Halloween props!  

Thanks ever so much for posting the Vortex picture... that's great.

I've tried a few chillers with less than acceptable results... can't wait 
to try that one out this weekend!

I even have two 48 quart coolers to test with!


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## Otaku

I got my new F-1250 fogger yesterday. Very impressive output and good recycle time, too. I'll be testing it with the Vortex/FOTR chiller this weekend, and I'll try to get a video posted early next week. The icemaker in the fridge has been working overtime while I stockpile enough ice to fill the chiller. More to come...


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## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> I'm not really following why FotR's is a concern or how it's completely different. The trash can chiller is completely different, that's for sure. Because the same person (Wil a.k.a Deathlord) who designed FotR's designed the Vortex and even shows FotR's as a prototype Vortex in a video of low lying fog with a cheap fogger on the Vortex site, and arrived at the Vortex by developing the FotR's first, so there's bound to be some cary over in the design. As far as I've ever known, the Vortex is his final refinement of FotR's. So in response to the inquiry posted here as to why the perpendicular angle is included in the Vortex-style design, one can look back to the FotR as being the beginnings of what ended up being the Vortex solution, which I think have many similarities that I can see, except mainly for the 90 degree bend and the shape of the container. So reasoning out why the perpendicular angle is included in both designs, is it coincidence, serving a funtional purpose or just a left over from the the original step in the process of arriving at the Vortex design? I don't think we have to worry about this turning into a FotR's thread. That design is history, but an important step in figuring out how to get fog to lie low, that ended up being the Vortex which we're enamoured with and trying to DIY duplicate. I don't think we'd even be trying to figure out how the Vortex works if so many haunters hadn't built a FotR's and had success, so in effect we're refining our own DIY FotR's to the Vortex refinement. The trash can, that IS a different animal but also gets good results for a DIY. I think from what I've expereinced and seen, these two are the most reliable - the Vortex as the best refinement of the successful FotR's with the mesh ice tray in a cooler and the Trash Can. And to see if an Igloo Ice Cube Cooler will work as well as a Vortex plastic pail if for no other reason than A) It's a cooler and coolers have worked in the past and B) It's a cube shape closer to mimicking the Vortex Mini and Fusion. And then there's the Vortex Pro which happens to use a trash can, but in no way is a DIY trash can chiller imitation because the inner workings are that of the other vortex products.


I agree FrightZone. My chiller was based on the FOTR design and all I need to do to convert it to the Vortex design is to add a 90 bend and a straight piece of PVC to my output. I figure it will take me five minutes to do the upgrade. The only other difference between mine and the Vortex is that I have the "pseudo venturi". I still would like to run some tests of my own on that one. This will be easy to do as my "pseudo venturi" is easily removable. My experiments will happen during my final setup on Halloween, so I won't be able to post my results until November.

I've been following the deathlord.net fog chiller saga for about two years now and have been a frequent poster on my ideas on this and other forums. I'm glad the Vortex secrets have been revealed so that the DIY'er can benefit.

Based on everything I've read, done and seen to date, I believe the current Vortex based design is the best fog chiller as far as price versus performance is concerned.


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## Fright Zone

gmacted - I look forward to your results. I think they'll be favorable. I also like the Ghost of Halloween trash can with aluminum drier duct chiller. That seems to work well for everyone who has tried it too. I'm glad I made both types of chillers to satisfy my curiosity firsthand. Your FotR's instructions and results video along with Zombie-F's FotR's photos gave me the confidence to take the plunge and try the Igloo Cube Vortex idea. Otaku and Brad jumpoing in and trying the Igloo Cube also gave me confidence to proceed. I have to say I've jumped in the fog chiller game late, so I benefit from everyone else's experiments inlcuding those that haven't been specifically named. I still held my breath when I first tested mine, but of course when it actually worked I thought "no problem" LOL


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## Vlad

The are two main reasons in my mind for not trying to discuss the FOTRs chiller at the same time as the Vortex and trash can chillers. The first is obvious in the confusion it caused early on in this thread about placement of the inlets and outlets. and where does the new tubing fit in. The second and more important one involves the actual theory behind the newer models, and the way they're being modified, and their unmodified results. 
Basically, the Vortex is a FOTRs chiller combined with a trash can chiller. In theory, the trash can chiller works by hot fog entering in the bottom of the trash can into a length of drier hose which is coiled around the inside of the can, and spirals upwards through ice packed all around it. When the fog reaches the top it begins a down and out journey through the same coiled hose. In other words, the chilling takes place from the moment the fog enters, until it exits.
The Vortex works by fog entering into the bottom of the container, which is a basic FOTR setup, only with no exit. The fog then rises through the ice, and falls through the out drain of the pipe in the center. It's only exit, as it is blocked from falling back through the ice by warmer fog pushing it's way upwards. There is much mention by Vortex of the "flash Freezing" that makes the system work. If in fact the fog were flash frozen by the entry into the vortex, then the key to the ultimate fogger would seem to be a FOTRs with an increased capacity. But if that were the case, then why the need to allow the fog to rise upwards before falling down the central drain. It's because the Vortex fog simply needs the added contact time with cold that the trash can chiller supplies without the need for the FOTRs addition on the bottom.

So far so good as far as both designs are concerned, but then there's the actual results. From what I've read about the fog offs between the Vortex and a standard Trash Can chiller, the Vortex has been described at best as holding it's own, or as good, as a trash can chiller. The problem I then see, with still thinking of the FOTRs as part of the final concept, is what good is this entire elaborate setup doing if it takes both concepts of the FOTRs and the pipe routed fog to accomplish what the pipe routed fog of a trash can chiller can do without the FOTRs addition.

It needs to be said that any chilling of fog using any chiller design, will make the fog low lying more than no chilling at all. The one problem, as I see it, with FOTRs, and the GotFog type chillers is that from the moment the fog enters the chiller, they're defeating the purpose of producing denser fog. Fog is by definition produced by the juices expansion upon being heated and mixing with external air. To immediately start the chilling process in the expansion chamber would seem to reduce the density of the fog created, because the expansion is not yet complete. I think that Otaku's succes with the reversed vortex design is some proof of this. By bypassing the FOTR concept, and directly routing the fog into an upper expansion chamber above the fog, and then allowing it to fall naturally through the ice, is a more logical concept. It keeps the fog moving in a one way direction, and follows the laws of physics as far as heat rising, and cold falling.
There are faults with both designs though, and that is where this thread is most beneficial. The most prominent of which is that prolonged contact with any surface, including ice, piping, drier duct, all tend to reduce the amount of fog, because it will tend to condense back into a liquid state. It's just my thought that since the FOTRs went the way of the Dodo as soon as trash can and bin container coolers came along, including them in the discussion of something new is counter-productive. And that is the point that we've reached in this thread, the modification of all the designs so that we're really talking about concepts that none of the others use in the same way.


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## edwood saucer

Wouldn't that be funny if we all just had foggy weather?

I apologize...

: ^)


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## Lunatic

Eward Saucer, That is NOT funny! Actually, that is pretty funny but I've been thinking about this subject for too long to not be able to use my soon to be built chillers. I have two chances to use the fog chillers this year, once for a halloween party on the 28th and then on Halloween. If the weather doesn't cooperate there is always next year.


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## airscapes

So am I line the only one that has fog in my grave yard 2 weeks before halloween?


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## Lunatic

Airscapes, That is awsome! 
Nobody around here (Greater Boston) fogs to the capacity that your talking about (other than a dance club) and I've never seen anyone here do it successfully with a fog chiller. I should be able to impress some people if we get good weather. To be honest I don't have that much time to dedicate in keeping an eye on the fogger fluid level and ice supply for days, but I'd like to one day. I would have to get a bigger fogger than the 700 watters that I bought recently. This will be my first season for fog. God I hope it all comes together.


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## Lunatic

*Fog on top of water inside inground pool*

I am setting the scene for a party at a friends house and thought about filling the top of the pool with cold fog on top of the water. This in turn would be lighted from below the water line to make the fog glow. I think it would be a cool effect to add a misterious atmosphere to the outside patio area. I live in the greater Boston area and the water will be cold. Anyone have any thoughts if it would work? The pool will not be in use until next summer. Is there any worry about the fog contaminating the pool water?


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## Vlad

Let's try to not go too far off topic here my friends.


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## Otaku

Darn! I was hoping to have a video of my new F-1250 running through the modified FOTR chiller, but the fogger died after 10 mins. of operation. The pump started making a loud buzzing sound and the output went to about 10%. During this test the chiller worked great, though. I should have seen this problem coming - I was testing the F-1250 side-by-side with a 700 watt machine and the 700 was kicking the F-1250's butt. The warranty papers say that it may take 4 weeks to get it fixed and returned. Oh, well...I will get a video of the 700 watt machine running through the chiller and post it on Monday.

Later - Discovered a clogged nozzle. All's well.


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## Long_Tom

I don't remember anyone mentioning this in the previous 17 pages; apologies if I missed it. 

I tried a Vortex design in a 5-gallon bucket (the orange Home Depot one), and the results were less than satisfactory. I got some amount of chilled fog, but a fair amount of it would split off and rise pretty quickly. I expect that 5 gallons is simply too small a volume (if the vortex is more like the 13 gallon square bucket on containerandpackaging.com -- thanks for the link to that, btw!)


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## Fright Zone

It has been interesting putting these chillers together and comparing them to see haunters variations on the Vortex. And seeing how cheap and small some of us are trying to make them LOL. 

FWIW, I tallied what it cost to build my chillers. The 48qt Igloo Ice Cube Vortex-inspired chiller was $72.92 incl tax. The 26 gallon trash can chiller using 16ft of aluminum dryer duct was $30.99 incl tax. That includes any PVC attachments that I tried on inlets or outlets and the paint. Ice was free plus $4.14. Lots of time spent on building and on forums, but still physically cheaper than buying one. I've been pleased with the results so far from both chillers. Luckily I don't feel as though I wasted money experimenting on something that didn't work like some have in the past, but also feel comfortable I didn't spend too much to get a cool fog effect either. I may get to test them in the actual yard I'll be haunting next week instead of my covered porch where I'm at now. Hopefully the results will be as satisfactory.


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## Moon Dog

It sounds to me that the Vortex can do the same output that the FOTR can with a smaller footprint.

Long_Tom mentioned that he tried the Vortex design with a five gallon bucket and got less than adequate
results.

What would the minimum size need to be to pull the Vortex design off corectly?

It sound like the FOTR design needs at least a trashcan to work correctly.

If the thirteen gallon bucket from the site Long_Tom refers to would work, does anyone want to go in on 
a case order with me to meet the $50 small order fee?

The cost breakdown would be $23.89 including shipping to my door for each bucket + lid.

We could work out the shipping cost to your door later...

Here's a link to the bucket in question...

http://www.containerandpackaging.com/item.asp?item=P113

Now we just need to know if the bucket is adequate.

Those ove you that have tried the Vortex design with adequate results, what size container did you use 
and where did you get it from?


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## Brad Green

Another home haunter on the HalloweenForum site has tried his hand at a Vortex clone with a RubberMaid "Brute" trashcan and 3" pipe. He seems to have gotten very good results and has posted pictures. Here's the link for those interested.
http://www.halloweenforum.com/showthread.php?t=58721


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## edwood saucer

Is there a general consensus as too what most folks like and generally think works best?


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## Fright Zone

I don't think so yet for all the slight modifications on the basic Vortex or trash can designs. We almost have to have an online form to fill out dimensions, type of cooler, size of cooler, fogger wattage, type of inlet, 1/3 ice or 1/3 expansion, trash can Vortex or Trash can Ghosts of Halloween version, and a space to type results or comments etc. That way it's all the same info from everyone for comparison. I personally can't do that. I can set up an html form in Dreamweaver maybe, but the back-end database functionality I have no programming abilities . Video would help too or photos at least of construction and results.

But this much seems apparent, that the Vortex product design works, as well as DIY modifications such as the Igloo Ice Cube 48 or 60qt Vortex-inspired designs work with 1/3 or 2/3 ice and inlet as intended or reverse inlet, with or without a pseudo venturi Wye adapter input, A 120qt Coleman w/ 60lbs of ice and a 1200W constant fogger also work. The Ghost of Halloween Trashcan with aluminum drier duct inside also works well.


Update: @ Vlad - I took your request to lower my ice tray. I lowered it 3" down to make it set at 1/2 the height of the 48qt Igloo Ice Cube chiller instead of 1/3 the height where it was originally. I had 2" of ice on thre tray and then added more to get it to a 4" level of ice on top of the hardware mesh ice tray. I tried the following:

A) The pseudo venturi on the outlet for the inlet, then 
B) The 3" gap between the fogger nozzle and the outlet as the inlet, then 
C) The pseudo venturi on the inlet, then 
D) The 3" gap between the fogger nozzle on the inlet. 

Results: None of those produced the amount of low laying fog as the original set-up I tried last week. The 3" gap between the fogger nozzle on the inlet like the Vortex products are designed to work did work the best out of all those efforts. But none were satisfactory. Very disspointing in fact. Maybe 1.5 to 2 feet of very weak fog out the outlet at best.

The set-up that works best for me is the ice tray at 1/3 the height of the cooler, 2 to 4" of ice on the hardware mesh tray, and a 3" gap between the fogger nozzle and using the outlet as the inlet. Unless I hook it up to my plastic cauldron then the same set-up except the pseudo venturi Wye adapter instead of the 3" gap works to slow the fog down and produce the effect I like for the fogging cauldron.

I'm glad I tried what you suggested to know that the way I had tested it before is the way I like it. Other's results may vary but it is an interesting experiment to know that 1/3 of the height of the cooler ice tray level at the top works for me better that 1/2 the height.

I took photos but I don't know when I can get those up online. I was working in a tight space on a porch but I think I got something to illustrate my point.


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## JohnnyL

Here's how mine worked:

http://lovemanor.com/fogchillertest1.html I pretty much just added the ice before that video was taken, so it didn't have time to fully cool down inside the chiller. Not bad for a little cheap 17 dollar 400 watt fogger from Wal Mart.  It went for about 15 more seconds after that video was taken as well.


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## Lunatic

Looks great JohhnyL,

Did you use 2" pvc? 
Was it setup as the fog inlet through the bottom up through the ice or the Vortex design in reverse?


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## JohnnyL

I believe it's 2" pvc, I'd have to double check but I'm sure it is. It enters through the bottom, goes through a 90 degree angle upwards, through an eggcrate shelf with about 3-4" of ice and a bit of sprinkled salt (really got it cold in there), then the fog falls through the ice shelf and through a bottom outlet.


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## Lunatic

Thanks JL, I saw some eggcrate the other day at Home Depot and thought it might work out but I'm kind of concerned about the weight of the ice in my larger 60 qt cooler, I might try it. 


Fright Zone, thanks for the R&D info, good to know. Just to clarify, you filled the top 1/3 of the cooler with ice with a slight gap between the ice & cover and left the bottom 2/3 open? 
Was the inlet reversed or standard Vortex?


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## JohnnyL

No problem!


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## Fright Zone

@ JohnnyL - Good video. Can you try it outside? That's where the real test is, unless the intention is to use it inside. But any of these chillers should work indoors where the temperature is warm and there's no wind. The results look similar to what I get from my 48qt Igloo Cube Cooler chiller outdoors on a covered porch on a good day. I have photos of mine I'll try to post. My real test will be in the wide open yard I'm doing my yard haunt in. The problem is it's 4 hrs away, so testing will be when I get to it.

@ Lunatic - 

A) Yes the top of my ice tray works well being 1/3rd from the top of the cooler lid when it's closed

B) The inside of the cooler measures 15" tall 

C) The top of my ice tray is 10" from the bottom (5" from the top)

D) The ice level I tried on top of the tray was 2" thick

E) The top of the ice was 12" from the bottom of the cooler 

F) The top of the PVC pipe connected to the 90 degree elbow is 4" above the hardware mesh ice tray

G) There was 2" between the top of the ice and the top of that PVC pipe

H) The top of the PVC pipe is 14" from the bottom of the cooler (1" from the closed lid)

I) The lower open fog expansion area below the mesh ice tray is 2/3 of the 15" height inside the cooler

J) That lower expansion area leads to the other 2" PVC opening (whether it's used as an inlet or outlet)

K) I get my best low lying fog results from this chiller using a 3" gap between the inlet & the 400W Gemmy fogger nozzle, using the 2" PVC pipe that has the 90 degree bend to within 1" of the top inside the cooler as the inlet, using either nothing at all or a double wye PVC adapter on the oulet (the double Wye shoots it out farther and perhaps just a regular 2" PVC pipe would do the same since most of the fog comes out of the middle pipe of the double Wye adapter anyhow, I just happened to have a double Wye to use and didn't fel like cutting down a piece of 2"dia PVC to try, but I could)

L) I get my best fogging cauldron results with a 3" dia aluminum dryer duct placed against this chiller's output and into a hole in a 12 or 16" plastic cauldron side, using the pseudo venturi Wye adapter right up against the 400W Gemmy fogger nozzle, using the 2" PVC pipe that has the 90 degree bend to within 1" of the top inside the cooler as the inlet, I also supplement it with a Mini Mister inside a 9" plastic pail inside the larger cauldron to pick up th eslack when the fogger is reheating

M) I have photos but don't have time right now to sort thru them to put them online as I type this, but I will eventually


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## Lunatic

Fright Zone, 

Wow, thanks for taking the time to explain in detail, it's much appreciated. I think you've more than filled your quota on technical info for one night. It's Miller time! I'm still curious about Airscapes 2" vs. 3" evaluation using the same fogger and cooler size. It appears to be the last piece of the puzzle for the 60qt Cube size minus the slight tweak in mesh & ice height.


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## JohnnyL

I will be using one indoors. The second will be used to power the fog fountain sign infront of the cemetery, so the chilled fog will have a resevoir to sit in, as well as coming out of the gargoyle mouths. I will be putting together a MUCH larger chiller (4 times as big as this) for the main fogger in the graveyard, which is a Pro Fogger v-940.


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## Vlad

Very good news Fright Zone! It really goes to prove what I've been thinking and saying, although it's hard to always precisely get the point across just verbally. In fact, just the way you had it set up with 1/3 of the space on top, is exactly what I meant. I am sorry if there was some confusion on that point. In fact, I really only meant to say that merely moving the expansion chamber to the top, instead of having it on the bottom, and reversing the flow to more closely follow the laws of physics was likely to be the key to it. You and Otaku, and JohnnyL have now confirmed that. By testing it again with an even greater expansion zone on top, we can all now see that only a certain amount of expansion space is needed. Approximately 1/3 of the cooler volume. Great work! Well done my friends!


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## Vlad

I might also add now, that maybe increasing the ice thickness might be the next step. Ugh, I've been so caught up in making these fountains of mine I haven't had a chance to get my butt in gear on this chiller, picking up the fittings tomorrow without fail.


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## malibooman

Well, I did the vortex chiller today with a 5 gallon bucket. I have to say that I had much better results shooting the fog into the outlet, instead of the inlet. Reversing it done way better results. Now I think I will redo my ice chest chiller to see if it works better.


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## airscapes

Finished the 60qt Cube vortex clone tonight. I chickened out and went with 2" pipe to start.. can always go bigger if it don't work as expected. I will go and pay through the nose for ice on tomorrow on Sunday to test and take video.. 
I will be using 2/3 ice 1/3 expansion with vortext flow pattern, 3" air gap, with a 1200 watt fogger.. crossing fingers and toes.. I got other things to do and want the chiller to be done except for black paint...


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## Lunatic

Airscapes,

Good luck Dude! I await patiently for you results.


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## Long_Tom

JohnnyL said:


> Here's how mine worked:
> 
> http://lovemanor.com/fogchillertest1.html I pretty much just added the ice before that video was taken, so it didn't have time to fully cool down inside the chiller. Not bad for a little cheap 17 dollar 400 watt fogger from Wal Mart.  It went for about 15 more seconds after that video was taken as well.


Wow, that was much better than my attempt! That is a regular old 5-gallon bucket, isn't it? I may have to give mine another shot.

First thing, I think I should try it with my LiteFX 1200 Continuous. Yesterday, I used a LiteFX 700, which seems to have a much higher velocity at the nozzle. Maybe the '1200 Continuous' won't force the fog through so fast and it will chill better.

I also managed to cut the vertical pipe a little short, dang it. I think I will roll up some aluminum flashing into a pipe extender, so I can adjust the height back up where it belongs.

If that still isn't enough, I'm very curious whether you used 2" or 3" PVC. I used 3". I'm hoping that isn't a critical factor, but I'm willing to start over if necessary, considering the first one took maybe 45 minutes to fabricate. The small size of the chiller is so handy, if it can be made to work.

I really appreciate all the experimentation and reporting, from all of you. Thanks!


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## Fright Zone

Here's some photos and animated GIFS of my tests of the Vortex-inspired 48qt Igloo Ice Cube Chiller and the Ghost of Halloween-inspired trash can chillers I built this year:

PHOTO ONE, PHOTO TWO and PHOTO THREE are the fogging cauldron. the set-up is a 400W Gemmy Mini, a pseudo venturi wye adapter into the 2" PVC with the 90 degree elbow inside the 48qt Igloo Ice Cube cooler with the ice tray at the 10" mark of 15" inside height of the cooler, the ice layer is 2" high, the PVC pipe inside is 1" from the lid, the chamber underneath the ice tray is 10" tall, a 3" dia aluminum dryer duct is placed on the 2" PVC outlet, the duct is placed in a hole cut into the back of a 12" plastic cauldron (orange string lights aren't lit), the cauldron has a 9" plastic pail in it which holds a mini mister supported by multiple bent coat hanger, the mister adds to the effect and picks up the slack when the fogger is reheating.

PHOTO FOUR is the Igloo Cube using the same inside set-up described above. The input is the straight 2" dia x 5" PVC pipe into the lower empty chamber underneath the ice tray. No venturi but a 3" gap between the fogger nozzle and the inlet. The nozzle is centered on the inlet. You can see it works but even with some hastily placed P-shaped weather strip inside near the cooler lid, the fog wants to escape the top. The fog is thick and low but tends to not go that far and starts to rise.

PHOTO FIVE is the exact same set-up inside the Igloo Cube as described for the fogging cauldron above. The pseudo venturi is removed in favor of the 3" gap between the fogger nozzle and the inlet which is the 90 degree bend inside. You may not be able to tell from just this one frame but the fog shoots out nicely, not too thick nor thin and lays low.

PHOTO SIX is an angle looking from behind the Igloo Cube. the exact same set-up as Photo Five except a double wye adapter on the outlet shoots the fog out farther and perhaps thicker. I haven't tried just a regular 2" PVC pipe instead of the double wye to see if it's any different. I just happened to have the double wye.

PHOTO SEVEN, PHOTO EIGHT, PHOTO NINE, PHOTO TEN and PHOTO ELEVEN are the 26 gallon $5 Walmart black thin-walled trash can with (2) 4" x 8ft aluminum drier ducts connected with collars inside. A 3x2 PVC reducer is on the outlet. A 7lb bag of ice is in the middle and more ice is spread across the top of the insides. The 400W Gemmy Mini is right up against the 4" dia inlet but there's a gap above for air. The fog is thick. It shoots out farther with the 3x2 PVC reducer. It also keeps going much farther but tends to rise faster than the Igloo Cube chilled fog.

PHOTO TWELVE and PHOTO THIRTEEN show the fog going thru the Igloo Cube Chiller's 90 degree PVC with the lid open for reference. If the lid were open and the fogger was shooting in the other PVC opening into the lower chamber below the ice, then you would see the fog lingering above the ice similar to the effect that's shown in the fogging cauldron photos.

ANIMATED GIF ONE is the Igloo Cube in action the same as Photo Five.

ANIMATED GIF TWO is the same set-up Igloo Cube except with the double wye adapter on the outlet and shooting off the covered porch onto the yard and into the light wind. It still lays low to the ground and the rocks even though the light wind redirects the path. The wind was barely noticeable, btw.

ANIMATED GIF THREE is the comparison trash can chiller in action described in Photos Seven thru Eleven above.

I'll leave those links up 'til Halloween.


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## airscapes

Ok I got fog! 
Today is a bit to windy for an outdoor test so I filled up my garage.
First off, a Fogstorm 1200 is a bit to powerfull for this size cooler. 
Constant run of fogger with a 3" airgap moved the fog to fast causing it to break up. Maybe if it had a long run in a 10ft pipe, it would be great. Moving the fogger into the inlet gave me less volocity and volume but it lyed lower and longer. Over all this works way better than the "Got Fog" cooler I have been using for the past 3 years. One alteration I plan to make later today is to add the exteranal piping from the inlet to allow the fogger to sit on top of the cooler. I have lots of horse power so a few exta bends are not going to hurt me.
One bad thing about the cooler, the water drain is 2" above the bottome of the cooler.. 
I took some video with my digital camera and will try and post it.
Check back in a few of an update with the link.


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## Lunatic

Fright Zone,

Thanks for all of the R&D efforts. It's good to see it all in action and appears that you got excellent results. That mini 400 watt fogger really pumps it out! It also appears that using a double wye doesn't make the fog distribution any wider. What is needed is a true Y-shaped outlet to force it in two directions, but with those outstanding results it may not be necessary.

Also good to know that as you metioned before that using a pseudo venturi works well to slow doen the velocity for the right application (i.e. caldron). 

Unless I see good results from someone else using 3" pvc & 700 watt fogger, I will feel very comfortable cutting my 60 qt cube coolers to accomodate the 2". Thanks again!


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## Lunatic

Airscapes,

I hear you about the drain plug being 2" above the bottom of the cooler, mine has it too. I'm not sure how to remedy the problem with the water build up. The watr will just roll out the outlet anyway and may not matter that much but what do I know. I'm curious is too see how the fogger will perform on top of the cooler through a bend. I would think with a powerful enough fogger that it might work out well. I still think it's a great idea to get the fogger off the ground. You don't have to worry about wet grass and adjusting the nozzle height of the fogger as you might with an uneven ground. 

When the results are ready please let us know if the fogger on top of the cooler is piped into the bottom or through the 90 bend up to the top. My thought was to pipe it directly into the top above the ice but my guess, as I've been told, will cause blowback of hot fog through the inlet.

Did you use 2" or 3" piping and what size cooler again??


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## airscapes

10 posts but no edit button yet.. ok here is the video .. was way to windy outside.. 





Here is a link to 2 pictures. If you click the first one, I have all the parts and lenghts of cuts listed under it.
http://65.78.32.190:888/cube_chiller/index.html


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## JohnnyL

Long_Tom, yup it's just a regular 5 gallon bucket I got from Home Depot.


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## Brad Green

Just came in from about 4 hours worth of testing on the vortex clone that I had previously described here. I wanted to come to a conclusive answer on the inlet/outlet debate, and so I tried a test I hadn't seen done here yet. I sat down with a stop watch and timed how long the fog "laid out". Stood to reason that the colder shot would hug the ground longer. For the test I used an 18" X 2" outlet extension which ended in a 2" 45 fitting that directed the fog down towards the floor. I marked an "X" on the floor so that each time I tried the other port as an inlet I could line up the point of exhaust to the same place in all the tests. Initially I tried the "2/3 expansion-1/3 ice" method. My Igloo is 17" deep, so I raised the tray to make a 11" deep expansion area and a 6" deep ice area. 4" of ice was placed on the tray and the fogging began. Using a 400w Gemmy, running on thirty second intervals, and using the Vortex recommended inlet port, the fog poured out but rose almost immediately (within 3-5 sec.), I ran this method 5 times with similar results each time. Next I reversed the inlet/outlet, blowing the fog into the port that had the 90 running to the top of the cooler, with no other changes to ice level or tray height. The times to dissipation (when the fog cleared enough to see the floor) in all 5 tests are as follows: 45 sec.,27 sec., 33 sec.,23 sec., 21 sec. For the next set of tests, I lowered the ice tray to give me a 7" lower area and a 10" upper ice area., which was filled with 8" of ice and re-ran the timing tests. Again using the Vortex method (in lower exp. area, out upper tube in ice chamber). All 5 test results are: 46 sec.,34 sec.,36 sec.,44 sec., and 48 sec. - almost a mirror of test 2 above using the reverse inlet/outlet. For the last set of tests, I went back to the reversed inlet/outlet setup that everyone is trying here and did get the best times of the day: 1min.,12 sec.,1min.,24 sec.,1min.,20 sec.,1 min.,45 sec., and 1 min.,16 sec. When I first started testing this design, the standard vortex inlet/outlet configuration appeared to put out more volume than the reversed inlet use that everyone here is trying, and according to another post, the inventor of the vortex, Wil Shock states that changing the fogger inlet would do just that. However, increased volume isn't the bottom line here, and that could probably be achieved with a bigger fogger. How cold the out going charge becomes is what we are looking for, and it seems that the reverse inlet/outlet setup is the ticket. I did find that a larger ice area results in a colder charge that does lay down longer. Just for the fun off it, I shut off the auto timer and just laid on the button until the fogger gave up. I really think, although it works with the little Gemmy, a bigger,say 700w continuous fogger, would be best for this 60 qt. set-up.


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## Lunatic

Brad Green, 

I'm really impressed with your results, thanks for noting the data. More ice for a colder fog sounds logical. I was hoping that the reverse design would be a good setup for the 60 qt cube and it appears to be a serious competitor for that size. I'm going to use the 700 watter because that's what I have.

Not to burst your bubble because I'm not- honestly, but I have this little devil on my shoulder wispering to me, "What about using 3" pvc with the same setup". I'm probably going to chicken out like Airscape and use the 2 inch because it's proven. Thanks again Brad!!


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## Brad Green

No bubbles burst here Lunatic, I've asked myself that same question about, oh, five or six thousand times since I built the thing. But frankly, at this stage in the game, I'm just not adventurous enough to find out. It may well be the magic bullet for this set-up, but, better one that works as is than to take the chance and ruin yet another cooler!


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## Lunatic

Brad, 

Amen, brother. Point very well taken. 
Your latest results and configuration are likely this years winner for the 60 quart cube. I've already started my chillers. Congratulations and thanks again!


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## airscapes

To tell you all the truth, with this kick ass fogger.. this chiller sucks.. I would need a chiller about 3x as tall for this to work well. I made a 40lb scoop away chilller today and ran my broken 700watt fogger in it.. it didn't make much fog but it layed ON the ground.. the thing is.. if you got a big fogger with lots of output.. you need LOOOTTTS of ICE! no way around it... trash canfull of ice with a vortex stack pipe at the TOP .. 90lbs of ice for a fog storm 1200 if you want to run it full out.. 
I will set the timer for short burst every couple of seconds..


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## CountZero

airscapes said:


> To tell you all the truth, with this kick ass fogger.. this chiller sucks.. I would need a chiller about 3x as tall for this to work well. I made a 40lb scoop away chilller today and ran my broken 700watt fogger in it.. it didn't make much fog but it layed ON the ground.. the thing is.. if you got a big fogger with lots of output.. you need LOOOTTTS of ICE! no way around it... trash canfull of ice with a vortex stack pipe at the TOP .. 90lbs of ice for a fog storm 1200 if you want to run it full out..
> I will set the timer for short burst every couple of seconds..


I'm using a 60Q Igloo with a "Vortex" style chiller and I've run a 1000W MBT fogger through it with no problems. I've also tested it with a 1700W Chauvet and aside from the specific Fog Juice that I was using in the Chauvet not performing quite like I wanted it to, I still got acceptable results. This was using 20 pounds of Ice over a span of two hours of testing. (2 bags of ice on the platform was all I used.) I'm trying to make the most efficient chiller that I can for this year. I know some folks are using HUGE coolers with big foggers, but I want something that's easier to hide.

This was a 10 second burst from a 1000W fogger through a 60Q chiller.
http://www.liquidrealities.com/images/fog/close10sec.jpg

This was a slightly longer burst. (About 30 seconds.) Note the fog going over the edge of the wall. Also note that the fog is blowing back towards the chiller. It was breezy last night when we tested the chillers.
http://www.liquidrealities.com/images/fog/bagsteps.jpg

From what I've seen, its very easy to get decent performance out of a large fogger and a 60Q vortex style. I'm planning on testing my 1700W Chauvet fogger with this Same chiller with the new fluid I used in the MBT. When I run that test, I'll take photos and post them here for reference. I can tell you that testing last night, we had to go out with boxes to fan the fog off of the ground and get it gone so we could run the next series of tests. I was VERY happy with how the fog clung the ground.

I wouldnt give up on the design just yet. There are ways to make it work. once I slowed down the exiting fog, it hugged the ground beautifully. (I ended up with a nice 8"-12" deep carpet of fog that just rolled along slowly.)


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## airscapes

As I said.. short burst.... long blasts with my fog blaster it just doesn't cool off sufficiantly. Or maybe it is just moving to fast.. let me see how it works after I pipe the input to the top of the cooler. Can't give up on it.. spent to much money on it ;-)


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## CountZero

They throwing a cheap plastic garbage bag on the output pipe. That's what I did with mine. It ends up slowing the fog WAY down, and I'm pretty sure its doing something to the internal pressure in the cooler as I seem to get denser fog with the bag than without. I was able to run a full length blast from the fogger. (Holding down the manual fog button until it shut down to cycle.) Even with that, it just kept pumping out low, creepy fog.

Here is a view towards the chiller.
http://www.liquidrealities.com/images/fog/bagfogger.jpg

I put a hole in the center of the bottom of a garbage bag and tied it tightly around the output pipe. When you hit the fog, it pushes through the bag and slows down, as well as spreading to the width of the opening of the bag. Its a very nice effect, and it may help you to slow yours down enough to really hang. I noticed the same speed issue with my 1000W fogger. I wasnt getting the cooling that I was hoping for until I put the bag on there. It was a pretty significant difference in both volume and height of the fog. It still covers a HUGE area, its just moving alot slower, so it doesnt seem to break up and rise nearly as fast as it did with just the raw output tube.

Your Chiller looks identical to mine, so I'm pretty sure it will work like mine did. There isnt much difference between 1000W and 1200W so performance should be similar. (And I did stuff a 1700W fogger through there as well, so I know the design can handle serious power.) I'd be interested to see if the bag helps you any. Its cheap, its easy, and if it works, you might not have to fiddle with extra pipes and elbows.


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## Brad Green

Airscapes, I've been following CountZeros progress on his fog chiller (looks identical to mine) and I think he's really onto something with the bag idea. I'm going to step up and buy a bigger fogger (at least 700W continuous) because, after all the testing I've done of late, I'm convinced this 60qt unit can handle alot more than my little 400w Gemmy can produce. As I said before, at the end of my last run of tests, I just laid on the button until the poor thing about croaked, and the output was great. My layout on the 60qt is as follows: 2" inlet and outlet pipes, inlet (90 L ) goes up to 1" from the bottom of the cooler lid. Ice tray is 7" from the bottom-10" from the lid, I put roughly a 9" layer of ice in it (1" from the top of the pipe-2" from the bottom of the lid), make sure the fogger nozzle is centered in the input pipe and between 2 1/2 to 3" back. That's where I got my best results. Oh, and definately try the Count's bag idea.


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## Lunatic

Wow Count Zero, that bag trick works like a charm. Good to know. A black bag would be undetectable at night. Thanks for sharing the technique!


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## airscapes

SWEET! I will give that a try! I still want to move the fogger to the top.. it just makes things easier! I am thinking of adding a bag between the chiller an 3" dryer vent hose. .. so fog comes out the chiller ...hit the bag expands and then hits the dryer hose. .. slowing it down.. we will see how it works..
Great idea using the bag, thanks for posting it!!!!


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## Lunatic

Airscapes,

Yes, trying the fogger setup on the cooler lid would be great if it works correctly. It keeps everything in a neat package and safer for the fogger. I think it's highly possible when using a higher wattage fogger (700+) to push it through the bends. This has been talked about before with some opinions that the fog may blow back out if piped into the top. However, piping it into the side above the mesh and bending it straight up to the top within 1 inch from the lid, just like the 90 degree L inlet on the reverse Vortex design should logically work the same. I'm super curious now. 

Thanks for giving the idea more thought.


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## Brad Green

Can't see where it would hurt to try. Just listening to your video, that fogger you are using sounds like jet engine going on spool, slowing it down a bit with the 90 turns might just help it out a bit (definately sounds like you're having a velocity problem). Still does'nt seem like anything that can't be remedied with a little tinkering on the design.


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## Monsieur Kruger

Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed here. This is incredibly valuable information. I have been yard haunting since 1990 and have been using fog machines since '91. Over the years I've built many different versions of fog chillers, but never built the FOTR chiller. Learned about the Vortex chiller last year, but had already built the Chuck Rice chiller (very disappointing). I'd been searching for an online manual or images of the inside of a Vortex Fog Cooler for several weeks before I stumbled across the posts on this forum. To my pleasant surprise, not only did I find a manual, but tons of notes, testimonials, pictures, movies, etc. Awesome!

I'm in the process of building my own version and I'm really excited that I will finally have a good chiller (that's been proven here). Too bad I won't be home to use it this year, but I plan to build one to use at my brothers yard haunt during my visit to California. Should work really well in the warmer climate.

In regard to warmer climates, I would like to ask for some information I have not noticed in any of the posts so far. One thing I know from years of experimentation and research is that the low lying fog effect is drastically effected by low ambient air temperatures. In other words, the colder it is out side, the less effective fog chillers are. There needs to be a large enough difference between the temperature of the fog exiting the chiller and the ambient air temperature to have a good result.

Can anyone comment on what the outdoor ambient air temperature was during their tests?


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## Moon Dog

CountZero - I asked these questions over at HolloweenForum.com, but I'll ask them here as well...

Could you show us the inside of the Vortex chiller?

From your description, it sounds like you went with a 50/50 split of expansion area vs cooling area.

You also mentioned that you wanted to lower the tray, thus increasing the cooling area up to a 2:1 
ratio... did I read that correct?

I was thinking that after seeing the Vortex design, that the expansion area was the larger of the two 
at a 2:1 ratio...

Also, I've heard that a 700W fogger should be used as not to "overpower" the chiller.

But I guess the size of the fogger used is proportional to the size of the chiller as well.

I liked the way that you explained how the test was conducted - very good test!


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## airscapes

Just added the "got fog" pipe to put the fog machine on top of the cube.
Works great with the big fogger. *Now I did screw up*.. I accidently reversed the input/output but I don't think it made any difference. The plastic bag is a must for a HD foger all your realy need is a small bag just covering the end of the output. I will up load some video to youtube. Remember when watching video after I post it that my chiller is not sealed at any of the openings or the top as of yet, and my Ice is half gone. I am happy with the results using the bag and I am thinking once I get 6ft of dryer vent on it I may not need it at all. Here are some pics.. it was about 58 degress this morning.


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## airscapes

Video uploaded.. remember.. this is with backwards flow.. cuase i am a dipstick.. and forgot what was in and what was out..


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## CountZero

Moon Dog said:


> CountZero - I asked these questions over at HolloweenForum.com, but I'll ask them here as well...
> 
> Could you show us the inside of the Vortex chiller?
> 
> From your description, it sounds like you went with a 50/50 split of expansion area vs cooling area.
> 
> You also mentioned that you wanted to lower the tray, thus increasing the cooling area up to a 2:1
> ratio... did I read that correct?
> 
> I was thinking that after seeing the Vortex design, that the expansion area was the larger of the two
> at a 2:1 ratio...
> 
> Also, I've heard that a 700W fogger should be used as not to "overpower" the chiller.
> 
> But I guess the size of the fogger used is proportional to the size of the chiller as well.
> 
> I liked the way that you explained how the test was conducted - very good test!


Hey there. Sorry for the delay. Havent had time to check the boards since last night. I'll shoot some photos of the insice of mine after work today. Its about 50/50 right now though.. The Tray is about 8 1/2" off the floor of the cooler. Which leaves me about 6 inches to the top of the pipe. When I filled the cooler, I ran the ice right up tot eh top edge of the pipe. Which gave me about an inch and a half airgap at the top under the lid.

I was thinking about lowering the tray a little, but I'm planning on doing another round of tests with the same tray height. My reasoning for lowering the tray is twofold. 1. From what I'm seeing, the fog is expanding on volume OUTSIDE of the cooler. Which is fine with me. 2. The Temperature of the fog coming out the outlet is very cold. (I have an IR Thermometer on its way in, so we will be shooting some actual outlet temps next round of tests.) I'm figuring that the expansion space in bottom of the cooler is less important than the actual cooling process. Since with a larger fogger, I'm getting decent pressure through the ice, why not increase the ice by an inch or two and see if that improves the cooling. With the bag on the end of the outlet pipe, I'm getting secondary expansion out of the pipe. I'm not 100% sure WHY, but with the bag off I get X amount of fog out of the outlet with a timed burst. With the Bag I get X+ amount of fog. I'm speculating that the bag creates engouh backpressure to build up a volume of fog in the lower chamber of the fogger. I'm also speculating that the fog is very dense inside the cooler and the primary expansion is occuring OUTSIDE the cooler. Which is fine. I position the fogger close enough to the inlet that I can see the suction it creates, so I'm getting a venturi effect and increasing the pressure going into the chiller. It seems as If I'm moving the fog through there fast enough, its only semi expanded when it gets supercooled. It then hits the lower chamber, and since the bag is keeping that opening semi closed, we end up compressing the fog further into the chamber. When the pressure is greater than gravity on the bag, it pushes its way out and finishes expanding in the outside air. Keeping in mind I'm not a scientist, it seems that cooling a dense little chunk of fog might take a little longer to start with, but being dense, it will hold the cool alot longer than a wispy open piece of fog. Since I'm trying for the lowest, ground hugging fog I can get, it seems to me that Dense is the direction I want to go.

I'm planning on getting the absolute cheapest 400W fogger that I can find for the next round of tests as well. I'd like to see if a smaller fogger actually produces a better quality fog out of this size chiller as some folks claim. I'm not sure that a 700W fogger is too large for this size chiller though. I ran my tests with a 100w Chiller and it worked excellent. You can see from the photos the density and the spread of the fog. This next round of tests I'll also be using a 1700W fogger with the same fluid I used in the 1000W fogger and the same chiller. So I should be able to tell if a larger fogger or a smaller fogger is better for this size chiller. My hunch at this point is that the size of the fogger isnt really too important as long as you can super cool the fog and hold it in the chiller long enough to compress down a bit. I think that with the bigger fogger, I'll be able to create denser fog as I'll be able to compress the fog MORE before its supercooled. Which will hopefully give me better, longer lasting ground hugging fog.


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## Monsieur Kruger

Excellent results airscapes. 58 degrees, that's a pretty cool morning. Very stoked! I've been so disappointed with the various fog chillers over the years, finally I'll have what I've been looking for.

Here in Toronto we average 45-50 degrees on Halloween night, but from your tests I know I'll have great results at my brother's house in California.


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## Torgen

airscapes said:


> Video uploaded.. remember.. this is with backwards flow.. cuase i am a dipstick.. and forgot what was in and what was out..


By "backwards flow", do you mean fog going in the "stovepipe" (90^ tube) or in the horizontal tube?:googly:


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## Smelly-Skelly

Can someone post an update? This thread is getting so long I am unsure what the current results are. Fog in the original inlet or reversing, the size of expansion to ice etc. What is the deal with the bag, just a plastic trash bag to create back pressure? Thanks.

Here is my .02, I used the medium size Rubbermaid "brute" trash can (32gallon?) with 4" piping all around last year to make the cooler as I purchased the mini vortex to determine how it worked.

I ran it the "vortex way" with fog going into the lower expansion chamber up through the ice and down thorugh the 90 bend and out. I have to admit I was not impressed and I think the problem is the large openings are too large and allow the fog to escape too quickly.

Since I still have the can, I will reverse the flow for a test and then use a piece of plywood/carboard, something to make the inlet and outlet 3' and then 2". I think the 3" may be a little big as well and not create the back pressure needed to hold the fog for cooling.


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## airscapes

Smelly, the set up is like vortex.. 1/3 bottome 3/2 top, the only reasson the flow was reversed was I added the piping to put the fogger on top of the cube and pluged it into the wrong hole. I plan to use this in the original flow direction as I tested it previously inside the garage. The results with a big fogger are, flow direction does not seem to matter. Major issue is the volocity of the fog from the powerfull fogger in either direction. puting a small plastic bag on the end of the pipe to slow the exiting fog help a lot with the big machine. I think it also causes more back presure in the cube and the fog stays in it longer reguardless of flow.
So in the end.. I don't think direction matters, 2" pipe is just right for the cube and direction is not all the important.
PS on your 3" inlet/outlet.. just get reduces at the hardware store and put a bag on the outlet


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## gmacted

I really like the idea of the plastic trash bag! I have a large constant fogger and used a double-y pipe on the output to spread the fog. I think this idea may work a lot better.

I started this thread a few weeks ago. Based on the size of this thread, I think I may have created a monster! Oh wait, that's a good thing here!


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## Brad Green

CountZero, all my tests were done with a 400w Gemmy el-cheapo, and I really do believe that even though the Gemmy worked, I will get better results by stepping up to a 700w fogger than I have seen so far. I'm currently building a 10gal. bucket into the Vortex style cooler for the little Gemmy just to see if I can get decent results for the size.


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## airscapes

Brad, you will get good results. I built a 40lb scoopaway vortex last night.. work with a half dead 700 watt.. probably about the same as a 400.. well maybe the 400 is more powerfull.


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## Smelly-Skelly

So if reversing the flow is the "new" way to go, we are talking about shootng into the top of the chiller so the fog chills on the way down and out the bottom (fog into the original outlet with 90 bend and out the straight original inlet).

Is the 2/3 - 1/3 you are talking about in this "reversed" configuration still 2/3 expansion chamber on top with 1/3 ice layer? 

Another question for anyone - I notice in a few pics with reversed flow they are still using a support for the ice in the bottom of the container. Why not eliminate the support shelf and run ice from bottom up 1/3 of the container with a screen over the outlet to keep the ice in the container?


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## CountZero

Smelly-Skelly said:


> Is the 2/3 - 1/3 you are talking about in this "reversed" configuration still 2/3 expansion chamber on top with 1/3 ice layer?
> 
> Another question for anyone - I notice in a few pics with reversed flow they are still using a support for the ice in the bottom of the container. Why not eliminate the support shelf and run ice from bottom up 1/3 of the container with a screen over the outlet to keep the ice in the container?


I'm using about Half and Half on mine. I'll try to post interior photos tonight of my chiller.

As for removing the shelf completely and just filling with Ice, I had thought of that. I see the lower chamber as a sort of expansion chamber. It gives the fog a place to expand little with no restriction once its cooled by the ice. I'm wondering if filling the cooler up totally without the shelf would create too much of an obstruction to the flow of the fog. (Although it might slow it down a little.) I may have to try it without the shelf when I run the next round of tests. It is an interesting question.


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## Long_Tom

Smelly-Skelly said:


> ...Another question for anyone - I notice in a few pics with reversed flow they are still using a support for the ice in the bottom of the container. Why not eliminate the support shelf and run ice from bottom up 1/3 of the container with a screen over the outlet to keep the ice in the container?


I would hazard a guess that running the ice clear to the bottom creates a dead end for much of the fog. Fog can run through the entire pack of ice if there is a clear space across the entire far side. If the ice sits directly on the bottom, the fog permeates into the ice, runs into the bottom, and stops; the only fog that continues to move is that which happens to find its way to the outlet.

But that's just a guess. FWIW, on my first attempt at a 5-gallon bucket vortex chiller, I didn't support the ice shelf properly, and it collapsed, spilling a good deal of ice into the bottom of the bucket. That version didn't chill so well, and it could be that what happened to the ice contributed to the result.


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## NickG

how about running dry ice or a dry ice mix in the chillers? is it worth the extra cost/effort ?


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## Otaku

I've used dry ice a couple of times in my GotFog chiller. I placed the broken slabs (20 lbs) on top of the water ice. The result was VERY cold fog that didn't rise at all. There was a fair amount of the dry ice left at the end of the night, about 4 hours later, and the fogger was running a 10 sec. shot every 45 secs. I didn't notice any particular increase in the volume due to the dry ice. At $25 per 20 lb block I don't think I'll use it again.


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## Smelly-Skelly

*Pictures of my chiller built last year*

I built this one last year with a 32 gallon "Brute" trash can and 4" inlet/outlet. I am going to modify it and use 2" inlet/outlet as I feel the 4" is too big and allows too much flow instead of holding the fog inside longer.

PS I hope I loaded the pic's correctly, anyone have tips on this?


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## heresjohnny

Smelly-Skelly said:


> So if reversing the flow is the "new" way to go, we are talking about shootng into the top of the chiller so the fog chills on the way down and out the bottom (fog into the original outlet with 90 bend and out the straight original inlet).
> 
> Is the 2/3 - 1/3 you are talking about in this "reversed" configuration still 2/3 expansion chamber on top with 1/3 ice layer?
> 
> Another question for anyone - I notice in a few pics with reversed flow they are still using a support for the ice in the bottom of the container. Why not eliminate the support shelf and run ice from bottom up 1/3 of the container with a screen over the outlet to keep the ice in the container?


Its been over 10 pages of posts since I posted this picture, sounds like some confusion is coming up again about the vortex layout, reversing the vortex, and the otaku concept of putting the expansion chamber on the top. Reversing the flow in the vortex still keeps the expansion chamber on the bottom, and is not the same as the Otaku layout, which moves the expansion chamber to the top. So for clarity sake, in what is an outstanding thread on fog chillers, here is the picture again of the 4 basic layouts (in which I am not showing the garbage bag, good idea!):


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## Fright Zone

I've been out for a few days but I've been reading the latest batch of posts this weekend. I'll try the garbage bag outlet attachment idea. I had tried a box with a slit in it last week but that didn't work. I think the box collects and stops too much fog and there's no seal around it. I was trying to mimic the Gemmy, Fitco and Mister cool ice cube chiller outlets and Ghosts of Halloween tried that on their trash can chiller. A wet rag also didn't do anything. No dice on mine, so the trash bag may work.

I also picked up a 60qt Igloo Ice Cube Roller Cooler today. They had 4 left at a Walmart for $21.97. I might not have time prior to Halloween to put another chiller together (I have the 48qt Igloo Cube and a 26 gallon trash can) but in effect it should produce the same results as others who have used a 400W Gemmy, 2" PVC and the 60qt anyhow. I mainly got it while it was available for future use with a higher wattage fogger. I'd still use 2" PVC probably because I don't think the 60qt Igloo is that much larger than my 48qt Igloo by leaps and bounds. I still don't know what the dimensions are on the Vortex Fusion to know if the 60qt. Igloo is in fact close to the same size, in which case the Fusion uses 3" PVC. I also don't know the size difference between the Vortex Mini which requires a 400W fogger and the Fusion which requires 700-1000W fogger. I don't want to buy another hole saw when I got a 2-3/8" plus a mandrel and still have left over 2" PVC from the 48qt that I could use on the 60qt. If I was doing it from scratch I'd try the 3" PVC.

@ heresjohnny - The drawing helps but to be more accurate the Vortex and Otaku's really should be more taller than a regular cooler. I still don't know if that's part of what makes the design tick or not, and hence if my finding the Igloo Ice Cube coolers a similar taller shape makes a difference. Or if the Vortex taller shape is just a product of Vortex sourcing plastic pails that were economical and the shape is incidental. I think because of the 90 degree bend, the taller shape of the containers DOES play into the success of the design.

gmacted's was in fact a Coleman 120qt cooler and the fog on the rocks was also a regular cooler, so those are accurate drawings.


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## Fright Zone

Here's a suggestion to keep track of comparing everyone's chiller designs and results and dimensions and attachments and ambient temperature etc. I'm thinking you could copy and paste the line items to fill in your own specific information. A diagram would help if it can be provided. Or just post it again with any updated info and diagrams or photo or video results links with a revised date notation on it. The name, date and location should be included so we could copy & paste the info into our own text files to keep track and compare as we tweak, perfect or build additional Vortex-inspired chillers depending on our specific uses ie. indoors, outdoors, fogging cauldron, large or small area graveyard fog etc. So here's mine for starters. I included all the photos and info I had previously provided in separate posts. If you like the idea then post your own info based on my template here.

REVISED: 10 Oct 2006
USERNAME: Fright Zone
LOCATION: Dayton, OH

INDOORS/OUTDOORS USAGE: Outdoors covered porch
TEMPERATURE: 70 degrees
WIND: Very Light

FOG MACHINE BRAND: Gemmy Mini
FOG MACHINE WATTAGE: 400W
FOG MACHINE SOURCE: Walmart $18 (Sep 2006)
FOG MACHINE BURSTS: 10 seconds every 45 seconds

CONTAINER TYPE: Igloo Ice Cube Cooler
CONTAINER CAPACITY: 48 qt
CONTAINER INSIDE DIMENSIONS (ID): 13.75"w x 15"h X 13.75"d
CONTAINER SOURCE: Walmart $16 (Sep 2006)

PVC PIPE INLET & OULET ID: 2" (2-3/8" OD)
PVC 90 DEGREE BEND MEASURE FROM LID: 1"

ICE TRAY CONSTRUCTION: Hardware mesh zip tied to 3/4" dia PVC 
ICE TRAY HEIGHT INSIDE CHILLER: 10" from bottom
ICE CUBE THICKNESS ON TRAY: 2"
ICE CUBE GAP FROM LID: 3"
ICE CUBE WEIGHT: Approx. 14 lbs.

ICE FREEZING CHAMBER RATIO OF CHILLER HEIGHT: 1/3 (on top)
FOG EXPANSION AREA RATIO OF CHILLER HEIGHT: 2/3 (on bottom)

INLET USED: The 90 degree pipe with bend to the top of chiller
INLET ATTACHMENTS OR GAP: Pseudo venturi wye adapter against fogger nozzle (*)

OUTLET USED: The straight 5" x 2" dia PVC at the bottom of chiller
OUTLET ATTACHMENTS USED: 3" x 6 ft aluminum drier duct attached to a 12 or 16" plastic cauldron (**)

INTENDED USE: Primarily the outdoor Halloween yard haunt slow, billowing fogging cauldron effect. Optional use tested for ground-hugging graveyard display fog in small 18 ft x 20 ft yard.

RESULTS: Excellent for fogging cauldron. Very good for the size of fogger, chiller & ice used for ground fog in warm, slightly breezy weather.

NOTE: (*) Pseudo venturi wye adapter used to slow down fog output for fogging cauldron application. Got heavier results using a 3" gap between fogger nozzle and the inlet. So that would be used for a thick ground-hugging graveyard fog application.

NOTE: (**) Double Wye attachment also tried for ground fog shot fog out farther from middle pipe only.

OTHER: Krylon Fusion Satin or Ultr-Flat Camo Black used to paint the plastic Igloo Cooler. Might hide with Creepy Cloth from Kmart and/or styrofoam tombstone.

DIAGRAM LINK: PDF of set-up

CONSTRUCTION PHOTO LINKS: Ice Tray Height, Ice tray width, 48qt cooler, Ice level on freezing chamber tray, 90 degree bend inside chiller, Outlet inside chiller, Painted chiller with storage caps on openings.

CURRENT TEST RESULTS PHOTO LINKS: Fog with lid open and positioning of fogger A & B, Fogging Cauldron A, B & C, 3" gap to Lower inlet results, 3" gap to 90 degree bend inlet results, Double wye outlet attachment results.

CURENT TEST RESULTS ANIMATION LINKS: 3" gap to 90 degree band inlet with no outlet adapter for ground fog animated gif, 3" gap to 90 degree inlet using double wye outlet attachment shooting off porch into yard with slight breeze animated gif.

Let me know if that's too much info.


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## Lunatic

*My first chiller*

Hi Folks, I finally built my first chiller and wanted to share it with you. I haven't tested it yet and will post when I do.

Here are a couple shots of my design placing the 700 watt fogger on top of the cooler. I've never posted pictures so I hope I do it correctly. The chiller is a combination between a few designs and I give thanks to those people who inspired me. It's made out of the 60 quart Igloo Cube with wheels. This is based on the reverse Vortex design. I used 2" PVC all around with long sweep elbows because I thought the fog would flow a little easier than using a smaller 90 degree elbow. The L goes straight up to about 1 inch from the lid.

It's hard to see but the inlet enters about half way up the side of the cooler and will be above the mesh ice tray. I haven't built the mesh yet, as you can see there isn't one in my photo. I plan on placing the ice shelf low and just above the outlet in the front to maximize the ice chamber. I need the fog as cold as possible because I live in New England and it gets cold here. I wanted to mount the inlet a little higher but there are molded handles on the sides that are in the way.

Anyway, I plan on doing some testing this week when I get the chance after building the ice shelf and will post my results. I'm a little anxious to test it. I hope I haven't built a dud!


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## DeadSpider

wow you guys very informative posts. Thanks.


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## Grave Digger

Fright Zone said:


> I still don't know what the dimensions are on the Vortex Fusion...


Hi folks!

I have it on high authority (I asked Wil - the inventor of the Vortex chiller) about the size of the Vortex Pro, and Vortex Fusion. He said:

Vortex Pro ---- "45 gallon container - 24 inches wide x 31 inches high" (Yes Wil said his Vortex Pro chiller is a 45 gallon container. I think the Rubbermaid Brute trash can at 44 gallons is close enough - Grave Digger)
Vortex Fusion ---- "18 inches wide x 20 inches high" (he didn't tell me the depth - Grave Digger)

Please note that the "Vortex Fusion" container is larger than the 13 gallon "EZ Store White Pail" sold over at http://www.containerandpackaging.com/item.asp?item=P113 that was mentioned earlier.

"EZ Store White Pail" Dimensions are :

L = 16.25"
W = 13.25"
H = 19"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** Disclaimer: My personal analysis/insight/ideas/opinion about the Vortex Design ***

I believe part of the secret to the Vortex chillers charm (why it works so well) is that it's a vertical design. That simple fact has been overlooked by some (with all due respect to those who explored other designs).

A vertical design requires the hot fog to travel a longer distance thru a thicker ice wall (this lowers the temperature of the fog more than a thinner ice wall would). So instead of a rectangular (horizontial) or square cooler one should be looking at a container that is taller instead of a short and wide (horizontal design) if one whats to maximize their chiller's ability to lower the temperature of the fog. (Note: I mean no disrespect to others who have explored these other designs. My hat is off to you for blazing the trail.)

The Rubbermaid trash can is a no brainer (it's easy to find and it works well)... but if you want to build something smaller (that works as well as the Vortex Fusion) we need to find a container that is closer in size to the original Vortex Fusion container. That way you can have a thicker/deeper (depends on how you look at it) ice wall while still having a good size expansion chamber.

Also not using a insulated cooler is a good thing. Why? Well a insulated ice cooler holds in the cold of the ice (a good thing no doubt).... but it also holds in the heat from the hot fog produced by the fog machine..... Not a good idea. We want to cool the fog remember? By not using a insulated ice cooler, heat from the 190 degree fog (in the lower section of the fog chiller's expansion chamber), can radiate out of 5 sides of the chiller container (the four sides and bottom). Note: if it's cold outside the ground and air surrounding the fog chiller can act like a "heat sink" to draw some of the heat out of the fog in the expansion chamber before the fog rises.

Using an insulated ice cooler, all of that 190 degree heat from the fog machine is captured inside the expansion chamber, and the ice wall fails to cool down the hot fog as much as it otherwise could. If our goal is to cool down the fog as much as possible (it is) isn't it wise to help out the effort as much as possible? I also believe it would be in our best interest to use some pipe insulation and metal foil tape to wrap the lower pipe (including the "J") below the ice chamber. That will reduce any heat from the expansion chamber transfering heat back to the cold fog in the pipe and reheating it.

But then again I could be wrong....

Comments, ideas welcome.

The Grave Digger
http://hauntforum.com/images/smilies/crossbones.gif


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## Fright Zone

Thanks for the sizes. The 60qt Igloo cube Cooler is roughly 18" square, so it's close. In the ball park anyway, which means it wouldn't be bad to try a 3" PVC like the Fusion, but that's probably why 2" works just fine since the Igloo Cube isn't quite as big. I also thought about the idea that a cooler being insulated holds heat as well as cold, like a Thermos more or less, and maybe that's why we get better results from the reverse inlet on the Igloo Cube Cooler because the fog hits the lid and is forced down thru ice right away and then it goes down into the expansion chamber below and out, so it's chilled faster more or less. I figured because of all of Wil's reasearch that A) The insulation wasn't necessarily helping so he uses a plasitc pail besides easier and cheaper to source and B) The vertical design does help like you said. That's why even though the Igloo Cube is square, it's still taller for a DIY chiller than a regular cooler, which is long and narrow horizontally. I still think that plays into getting decent results out of the Cube or a 5 gallon bucket or Kitty Litter pail. So that's why I originally thought of using an Igloo Cube or Tidy Cat pail and others followed suit. I had guessed that the 13 gallon pail was a little small compared to a real Vortex Fusion, but it's still pretty close now that you state the sizes. This makes me want to try a plastic non-insulated pail for fun. That Igloo Cube is too cool-looking and compact not to have fun using as a chiller. It looks like it means business compared to a plastic kitty litter pail : ) It'd be fun to have enough foogers & chillers for a 3 or 4 way side-by-side shooutout with a real Vortex LOL


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## Long_Tom

Update on my attempt using a 5-gallon Home Depot bucket: 

I reinforced the edge of my 1/2" hardware cloth ice tray with heavy gauge fence wire, so it no longer collapses when loaded with ice, and the results are much better -- surprisingly so for such a small chiller! I can run a LiteFX 1200W Constant Fog model continuously without overwhelming the chilling capacity of the bucket. It fills the floor of my 14'x21' garage with a 4 inch layer of fog in about 45 seconds, and it stays low to the ground for a long time.

I ran the chiller in both directions, and did not get a substantial difference in the fog at the exit. In either direction, the fog remained very low lying, However, running it in the "forward" direction (inlet into the bottom chamber), I got a lot more hot fog leaking back out the inlet when the fogger was idle, which messed up the upper atmosphere in the room. I think I'll be running it in the "reverse" direction (fog in through the right angle tube to the upper chamber and down through the ice) to avoid this. I prefer to not mess with backflow flaps if I can avoid it.

It seems like the 1200 Watt Constant FX model scorches the fog juice; it stinks pretty bad, worse, I think, than the LiteFX 700 watt regular model. However, the 700 seems to have a higher nozzle velocity, making the fog billow more as it exits the chiller. I will try the plastic bag on the outlet, and see if that calms down the exiting fog with the 700 watt model. I would prefer my graveyard to not smell like it's on fire.


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## Long_Tom

To respond to Grave Digger's analysis: I think the thing about the Vortex design that makes it work is that it forces the fog through the ice pack: with the inlet on one side of the ice and the outlet on the other, the fog has no choice but to travel through the ice. With a lot of the earlier designs, the fog was only encouraged, as it were, to mingle with the ice and then come back out again by gravity as it cooled. Also, in these earlier designs the fresh hot fog and the chilled fog shared the same chamber, thereby mixing hot and cold, and thus limiting how cold it could get while the fogger is firing. By contrast, the Vortex keeps the hot fog separated from the cold fog, and also forces it into contact with the ice as the pressure pushes it through the ice pack.

The fact that the design is vertical is somewhat gratuitous to the performance, I think -- but the vertical design accomplishes very simply what would be awkward to engineer in a horizontal design. If you could design something that held the ice within vertical baffles such that the fog could not go around it but had to go through, I think it would perform similarly. However, it would be hard to keep the ice baffles filled, and eventually you would get a gap at the top where the hot fog could bypass the ice. With the vertical design, you simply pour the ice into the chamber and gravity takes care of keeping the ice distributed correctly even as it melts.

The Ghosts of Halloween trash can cooler works well by maximizing the surface area of the heat exchanger (the aluminum duct). The Vortex, on the other hand, uses the surface area of every single piece of ice in the ice pack, as the fog filters through it. I agree that increasing the thickness of the ice pack should increase the chilling, though there is probably a point at which the ice is so thick that the fog can't get through it efficiently, and you lose some of your fog volume. Once you have found the optimal thickness of ice pack, going to a larger diameter container (e.g., moving up to a Brute trash can) should allow you to process a larger volume of fog at once.

Remembering what little physics I can muster, the temperature of a gas is proportional to its pressure and volume. As a gas is allowed to go from a state of high pressure/low volume to a state of low pressure/high volume, its temperature drops. Therefore it would seem helpful to allow the fog to finish expanding (thereby getting some cooling for free) before forcing it through the ice pack. This would tend to indicate that the expansion chamber is a good thing to include. I suspect that it makes little difference whether the expansion chamber is on the top or the bottom of the chiller, as long as it is nearest the inlet; I suspect that the fog is driven through the ice far more strongly by the inlet pressure than by gravity effects (hot fog rising, cool fog falling). For me, the deciding factor is that the hot fog tends to stay inside the chiller when the inlet and expansion chamber are at the top.

This is all conjecture, of course. I probably will have to go back and read the whole thread again and see if any of it is corroborated by everyones' testing.


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## Moon Dog

Saw this one over at HalloweenForum.com

http://www.geocities.com/liemavick/Fogchiller.html

Anyone ever try this one?


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## heresjohnny

Good discussion everyone!

The pictures I posted were to simply show the different layouts, with the focus being on the Vortex design with fog entering a lower expansion chamber, and the otaku design with fog entering an upper expansion chamber. If you refer back to page 11 of this discussion you will see discussion about the resutls of these 2 layouts.

In terms of dimensions, and verticle versus horizontal; first I never intended the diagrams to show dimensions, simply the layout. Second we are talking about low velocity fluid flow here, so I believe volume plays the dominant role here. For example, having a vertically extended chamber may make the ice layer thicker, but the fog will also move through the ice faster (just think of the same amount of water flowing through different sizes of pipe).

Anyway, lots of great design ideas, personally I am going with the Otaku modified layout, will try to post results when I can. Besides, my main fog chillers are free vinyl carpet tubes with frozen water bottles


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## Monsieur Kruger

@ Moon Dog

Yes, have seen that "$20 Fog Chiller" PVC pipe design before. Never built it for three main reasons.

1. Too big. Difficult to hide or fit into small spaces.

2. Too difficult to refill.

3. Ice will leave a gap at the top of the pipe as it melts reducing the effectivness.

My first fog chiller back in '91 was a styrofoam ice chest with a piece of 4" dryer hose at each end and a piece of screen door mesh over each pipe to hold the ice in. Now I have to say that for a very brief period this worked reasonably well, but the design weakness shows up quite fast.

What happenes is the hot fog (having such a short journey to the opposite end) rises up slightly along the way through the ice and melts a path through.
So after an hour or so the ice is melted together, reducing the amount of cold surface area and the fog then had a clear path through to the other side.

Although I can really understand why Wil decided to market his "Fog Cooler" as having a right way and a wrong way for the fog to enter, I do admire the cleverness of his design. Not only is it simple, but it's easy to build with off the shelf supplies. One of the really brilliant features of his design is that fact that, when used in reverse (fog entering from the 90 degree elbow and forcing/falling through the ice with an expansion chamber at the top), there is no way for it to melt a path around the ice. As a bonus, having a small collection area at the bottom allows gravity to carry water from the melting ice away quickly to a drain below. This should keep the ice from sticking together, so there will not be a reduction in ice surface area.

I realize that Wil's design does not allow for a very large area at the top of the ice, since it seems he intends that the fog will cool by expansion first at the bottom and rise with the remaining heat through the ice before falling at an excellerated rate (because it's now colder and heavier) through the 90 degree elbow at the top of the ice. As was mentioned already, baffles could be used to direct the fog through the ice, but as it was also noted, allowing the fog to expand from high pressure/low volume to low pressure/high volume is helpful in aiding the cooling process.

I prefer to think of this fog chiller as having two options for it's use.

Option 1- Fog enters the 90 degree elbow, exits the top of the ice, expands and falls/is forced though the ice to the pipe at the bottom creating a dense slower moving fog

Option 2- The way Wil intended it, expanding at the bottom, rising through the ice and falling through the 90 degree elbow to create a higher volume, faster moving fog

At least that's what the results most of the pictures, videos and descriptions seem to show. Time for me to stop writing and finish mine so I can decide for myself.


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## Brad Green

Every time I think I've beat this subject to death, I find something new to post. Today I built a chiller for one of the guys at work, this time out of a 10 gal. bucket (20 1/2" deep - 13 3/4" wide) with a screw-on lid. Pretty much the tried and true formula for the rest of the build, 2" 'inlet' (2" male adaptor to a 2" 90 attached to a tube that runs to within 1" of the lid), 2" 'outlet' (2" coupler to a 2" male adapt.). As with my Igloo, I put the ice tray lower than most (8" expasion area at the bottom - 12 1/2" ice at top). Filled it with about 10" of ice and fired it up. The fogger the guy was using was a 700w unit, and when we turned on the juice the chiller fell on it's face! That 700w unit blew through the chiller like it wasn't even there. Well, I hate failure so I decided to try and solve this little problem (obviously need to slow up the flow a bit). Long story short, I ended up taking a 2" female adapt., 18" of 2" pipe, a 2" Tee, and two 2" 45's to solve the problem. Instead of letting the fog blow straight out of the outlet, I attached the female adapt. & extension pipe to the outlet fitting, to the end of the pipe went the Tee, and in order to keep the flow going to the front I attached the two 45's slightly angled towards the ground. That seems to have added just the right amount of back pressure, and the output was really great. We covered our garage floor and a good bit of the exterior drive in 80 degree weather with a slight breeze. Might be worth the try if you're having velocity problems.


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## airscapes

Brad Green said:


> Every time I think I've beat this subject to death, I find something new to post. Today I built a chiller for one of the guys at work, this time out of a 10 gal. bucket (20 1/2" deep - 13 3/4" wide) with a screw-on lid. Pretty much the tried and true formula for the rest of the build, 2" 'inlet' (2" male adaptor to a 2" 90 attached to a tube that runs to within 1" of the lid), 2" 'outlet' (2" coupler to a 2" male adapt.). As with my Igloo, I put the ice tray lower than most (8" expasion area at the bottom - 12 1/2" ice at top). Filled it with about 10" of ice and fired it up. The fogger the guy was using was a 700w unit, and when we turned on the juice the chiller fell on it's face! That 700w unit blew through the chiller like it wasn't even there. Well, I hate failure so I decided to try and solve this little problem (obviously need to slow up the flow a bit). Long story short, I ended up taking a 2" female adapt., 18" of 2" pipe, a 2" Tee, and two 2" 45's to solve the problem. Instead of letting the fog blow straight out of the outlet, I attached the female adapt. & extension pipe to the outlet fitting, to the end of the pipe went the Tee, and in order to keep the flow going to the front I attached the two 45's slightly angled towards the ground. That seems to have added just the right amount of back pressure, and the output was really great. We covered our garage floor and a good bit of the exterior drive in 80 degree weather with a slight breeze. Might be worth the try if you're having velocity problems.


I think i get it.. but could you post a pic of the piping??


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## Brad Green

I'll try and get you a picture tomorrow.


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## Mr. A

airscapes said:


> Brad Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> I ended up taking a 2" female adapt., 18" of 2" pipe, a 2" Tee, and two 2" 45's to solve the problem. Instead of letting the fog blow straight out of the outlet, I attached the female adapt. & extension pipe to the outlet fitting, to the end of the pipe went the Tee, and in order to keep the flow going to the front I attached the two 45's slightly angled towards the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> I think i get it.. but could you post a pic of the piping??
Click to expand...

Hopefully this is correct.. overhead view:


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## airscapes

Thanks Brad!! 
Interesting, same results as a plastic bag laying over the end of the pipe. but much nicer looking. One of these days I have to get me some 3" aluminum dry vent that is needed to get the fog around the corner and out into the yard.. I am thinking that will be sufficiant to dampen the volocity, but if not.. this looks great!..


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## Brad Green

Thank you Mr. A, that's a perfect rendition (saved me a download). Airscapes, glad it worked for you. I tried all kinds of turn-downs and extensions, but I think this one worked out best.


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## halfcracked

*More tweaks on the vortex*

Just finished reading the thread & had to sign up to ask a couple of q's that occured to me but that no one seems to have considered.

1) I saw someone mention using 45's instead of 90's but no one seems to have thought about the effects this might have. I've power piped fog for stage productions before & it seemed that tight radius bends really killed the fog. It would seem to me that if you feed in gently the fog might take less wear & tear traveling through the chiller.

2) Something I haven't seen any one think about yet is creating a vortex inside the chiller. I'm thinking this might actually get some lateral travel through the ice & increase the "chill time" there by giving a better (colder) fog.

3) Using differentiated input & output diameters of the PVC. The bag outlet trick (great trick BTW - there's been shows i wish i had thought of this) seems to create a certain amount of backpressure. What would be the effect of using a 3" inlet & a 2" outlet or would the opposite work better?


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## Mr. A

halfcracked said:


> 1) I saw someone mention using 45's instead of 90's but no one seems to have thought about the effects this might have. I've power piped fog for stage productions before & it seemed that tight radius bends really killed the fog. It would seem to me that if you feed in gently the fog might take less wear & tear traveling through the chiller.


I'd have to go back to find out who it was from, but at least one has used a more gradual 90 -vs- the hard right-angle most are probably using.











halfcracked said:


> 3) Using differentiated input & output diameters of the PVC. The bag outlet trick (great trick BTW - there's been shows i wish i had thought of this) seems to create a certain amount of backpressure. What would be the effect of using a 3" inlet & a 2" outlet or would the opposite work better?


That's something I've been meaning to try for one of my chillers. I used 3" PVC and it cycles through way to fast.


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## Moon Dog

Seems to me that most folks are using 2" PCV with good results... is this correct?


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## airscapes

I think this thread is about useless at this point and should probably be closed. It is to long for newcomers to the thread to go back and read all the things that have been done. 
Fact is, the design works just fine, only issue I found is the more powerfull fog machines create to much volocity and the fog need to be slowed down as it exits the pipe.. hence the plastic bag or tee with 45 degree downward facing elbows.

It seems that everyone with a $15 fog machine wants to pump out broadway style fog. Tinker all you like, but as Tim Allen would say.. "MORE POOWWERRR!" 

Should I mention this.... well why not.. this thread is never going to die on it's own anyway..

You know the Kitty litter buck version of the vortex a lot of us made.. 
It just happens that you can stick the output pipe of the cube, into the input of the bucket.. .. flash to reader minds eye...   
Happy Halloween!


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## Zombie-F

airscapes said:


> I think this thread is about useless at this point and should probably be closed. It is to long for newcomers to the thread to go back and read all the things that have been done.
> Fact is, the design works just fine, only issue I found is the more powerfull fog machines create to much volocity and the fog need to be slowed down as it exits the pipe.. hence the plastic bag or tee with 45 degree downward facing elbows.
> 
> It seems that everyone with a $15 fog machine wants to pump out broadway style fog. Tinker all you like, but as Tim Allen would say.. "MORE POOWWERRR!"
> 
> Should I mention this.... well why not.. this thread is never going to die on it's own anyway..
> 
> You know the Kitty litter buck version of the vortex a lot of us made..
> It just happens that you can stick the output pipe of the cube, into the input of the bucket.. .. flash to reader minds eye...
> Happy Halloween!


The moderators and I shall be the sole arbitrators of what is and isn't useful as far as threads go. I think this thread has plenty of usefulness and can continue to be useful as long as there is interest in it. You just have to be patient and read through it all to find what you're looking for or else utilize the "Search this Thread" feature to find specifically what you're looking for.


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## airscapes

Zombie-F said:


> The moderators and I shall be the sole arbitrators of what is and isn't useful as far as threads go. I think this thread has plenty of usefulness and can continue to be useful as long as there is interest in it. You just have to be patient and read through it all to find what you're looking for or else utilize the "Search this Thread" feature to find specifically what you're looking for.


I didn't mean to remove the thread, just close it to new posts.
New questions (or old ones) could be asked and answered in a new thread.


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## Fright Zone

Fwiw, I use the 90 degree pipe that's shown on the right side of that photo. The one with the collar on each end a nd a more gradual curve. That's what I thought most people used, ntot the hard angle. But someone else showed a "Sweep" 90 degree elbow which I think is even more gradual. I would guess the real Vortex products use the one I'm using. I havent' had a chance to try the bag on the outlet. It was very cold here. A frost before an Indian Summer they say. So I would have liked to have seen how a chiller performed in colder weather. But fence painting took up the area so far.


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## Lunatic

Mr. A & Fright Zone,

In my last posting a few days ago I mentioned that I too did use the long sweep 90 degree elbows because I thought that it would make a smoother path for the fog than the shorter hard right elbow. I have been very busy and I'm just finishing the mesh for the 60 qt. Igloo cooler and will test it this weekend with a 700 watt fogger. The design is the reverse Vortex that Otaku uses. Or at least I thinks it's Otaku, the thread is lengthy and hard to keep track. 

No matter what, I must say that this discussion has given me the knowledge and inspiration to make my first chiller and I would bet that it will perform well. I'll post back with the results this weekend. Oh, and by the way, it will be quite cold here in the Boston area this weekend so it will be interesting how what I see for results.


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## Fright Zone

I couldn't remember who had shown the 90 degree sweep PVC or on what page LOL. So I agree, I think that's what airscapes was getting at, it's hard to keep track of by now on the 25th page. That's why I had suggested a standard form to present everyone's set-up, materials and test results. But alas, that's not how a forum functions.

It was my recollection that your photo of the 90 degree sweep looked different than my 90 degree sweep, so I didn't know if in fact they make one that's more gradual or maybe it's just manufacturer of that particular pipe.

I look forward to your cold weather tests. gmacted had good results last Halloween in New England using a 1200W constant fogger, 120 qt Coleman cooler Fog on the Rocks Chiller and 60 lbs of ice that he showed a video of a while back on another forum. He said he'd try the Vortex 90 degree sweep if he got a chance between building other props. I'd conduct an Ohio cold weather test tonight except that the porch is occupied by graveyard fence post painting.


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## screaminscott

*Why the outlet works*

I've been reading the posts, and have a theory as to why the outlet on the Vortex works so well.

I know that it seems illogical that the fog would rise up through the ice and exit the tube at the top of the chiller.

But perhaps the ice chills the air within the exit tube, and it starts falling inside the tube. Then sets up a convection current that draws air up through the ice and down through the exit tube.

This helps pull the fog up through the ice then back down the exit tube.


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## Lunatic

Screaminscott, 

Yip, the theory sounds logical to me. I think the convection would work either way once you get it started. Regardless of theory, many people have posted their results using the standard Vortex setup and reversed with good results either way. It appears that depending on your particular application, size of cooler, expansion area, ice chamber, pvc size, etc., that you would want to use the standard or the reverse design to adjust for either velocity or fog qualities, but on the other hand a bag or extension piping with 45's on the outlet seems to help control the pressure. Not to mention get the fog out and away from your setup. What's great about the Vortex design is that no matter what, you can easily experiment using either pipe for the inlet and see what best works in your application. 

Me on the other hand have limited myself to using the reverse vortex with 2" pvc because of my layout with the L inlet entering the cooler above the mesh so I could place the fogger on top of the cooler and off the ground. Check out the couple of pix that I posted on page 23. I still have to test it though. Good luck!


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## Otaku

Keep in mind that a fog chiller is not a passive system. It was mentioned in an earlier post that "fog will find it's way out" or something to that effect. That's a true statement - a chiller is under pressure when the fogger is on and the gas has to take the path of least resistance. The best path would be one that has the most opportunity to be in contact with the ice. This almost begs the question, What about baffling (an over/under or side-to-side path) the interior of the chiller?
One of the improvements discovered in this thread was the use of a slight backpressure to keep the hot fog in contact with the ice for a greater time. I don't know (yet) what the optimal backpressure is for a given design, but the trash bag works well as does introducing more bends (tortuous path) in the outlet. I plan to test the trash bag and a baffle system this weekend. I'll let you all know the results of the baffle mod.
When I tried reversing the inlet/outlet on my modified FOTR, it was an attempt to prevent the backflow of fog from the inlet pipe. With the design I have it just turned out to improve the fog density and temperature. Sometimes ya just get lucky!


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## JustMatt

One of the best threads I've ever read on any subject!


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## Lunatic

Otaku,

Yes, baffling would be interesting to see the effects of more ice time. This would be similar to the Vortex Pro with all of that tubing but there is no contact with the ice which adds a lot of moisture to the fog. I like the thought of creating a vortex inside the cooler that Halfcracked mentioned. This may be the idea behind the next generation chiller!


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## Otaku

Setting up a vortex in a circular container would be easy - just attach a short 45° elbow to the inlet pipe inside the container.


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## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> I couldn't remember who had shown the 90 degree sweep PVC or on what page LOL. So I agree, I think that's what airscapes was getting at, it's hard to keep track of by now on the 25th page. That's why I had suggested a standard form to present everyone's set-up, materials and test results. But alas, that's not how a forum functions.
> 
> It was my recollection that your photo of the 90 degree sweep looked different than my 90 degree sweep, so I didn't know if in fact they make one that's more gradual or maybe it's just manufacturer of that particular pipe.
> 
> I look forward to your cold weather tests. gmacted had good results last Halloween in New England using a 1200W constant fogger, 120 qt Coleman cooler Fog on the Rocks Chiller and 60 lbs of ice that he showed a video of a while back on another forum. He said he'd try the Vortex 90 degree sweep if he got a chance between building other props. I'd conduct an Ohio cold weather test tonight except that the porch is occupied by graveyard fence post painting.


Yes frightzone, I will be conducting the tests you mentioned above, but not until the day of Halloween.

For those of you who are interested, here are my videos from last year.
Chiller tests
What's interesting about this video is I even mention the 90 degree bend I added to the input of the chiller. I did not bring it all the way to the top, but rather just to the wire mesh. I did this before I even knew how the Vortex chiller was built. I think I was on the right track because the fog clings to the ground very well even with a constant output fogger (VEI V-950)

My 2005 Halloween Video
This is my video from Halloween night. You can see that the fog stayed very close to the ground.

Here is a Link to how I built my chiller. It is still in this form today as I have not yet taken it out as I have been working on my MIB (Monster in Box) Prop. It's almost done and I plan on posting a video of it here very soon. If I wasn't so involved with the MIB prop I probably would be performing more experiments with my chiller. So much to do, so little time. I still haven't put up my graveyard yet. I think the neighbors are a little dissapointed. Hopefully this weekend!


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## Vlad

I don't believe that the Vortex effect (and hence the name of the chiller itself) although present, is truly created by ice chilling the outlet tube. The fact that hot fog blasts in at the bottom would probably negate some of that effect by heating the bottom-most portion of the outlet tube. In fact, I believe that it's just a case of the chilled fog trapped at the top having nowhere else to go but that outlet tube. Think of High School science class, and the use of semi-permeable membranes. Concentrations of any elements are always in motion trying to get from a higher concentration, to a space with a lower concentration. In this case, fog trying to get to the air outside the cooler with no fog. But that would also tend to jive with my thoughts that the original Vortex design includes too much turbulence in the way of undirected fog. As I mentioned in an earlier post, surely some of the rising fog is getting chilled and wanting to drop, or stay level, as other hot fog is forcing it's way up. Although the fog in a Vortex is eventually forced upwards, and then downwards and out, there's too much allowance for eddies, swirls, rising and falling and hesitation along the way. Heat rises, and cold falls, by reversing the inlets and outlets, it's truly a one way flow.


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## Smelly-Skelly

In my 32 gallon vortex I made last year I took the lid off while the fogger was going to take a look. I was very surprised the fog did not go everywhere. It actually collected in the outlet tube, down the 90 and out. I thought for sure with the lib off it would just spill over the side. Keep in mind my outlet tub is 2" below the rim of the trash can. This was even with 4" tubing all around.

This morning I could'nt sleep at 4am so got up and started working on props. I cut out a piece of plywood to fit the 4" piping and used a hole saw for 2 1/8 inches. I should be able to test this over the weekend to see if the smaller inlet and outlet will make a differece over the 4 inch piping.


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## airscapes

what wattage fogger where you using.. mine blows fog out ever unsealed crack of the cooler. If I was to open the lid, I would get hit with flying ice.


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## Brad Green

I think the reason that this design works where others have failed is the "top to bottom" layout, whereas most others simply enter at one end, pass through the ice and exit at the other end. As the fog enters the chiller (from either inlet) it creates a high pressure area, forcing the lower temperature fog out of it's path, through the ice pack and towards the nearest exit opposite the path of the incoming 'heat wave'. Even on the high velocity set-ups we have here, if you put your hand over the outlet, what's coming out is very cold. The other cooler designs, like Got Fog, don't allow for that to happen, what fog does mingle with the ice is just pushed to the sides as the hotter charge rolls on through. I built one of these last year, and the fogger just blew through it, so I surmised that I did'nt have enough cooling area. Thinking along those lines, I built a second chiller of the same design and ran them linked together, fog passing through the first cooler into the second and then out. From every appearance, I lost that 'high-pressure' area since the fog lost all velocity and just dribbled out of the second cooler. It DID cool the fog, but there was no longer any real force to the force discharge. As it entered the second cooler, it was already cooler than what was coming out of the fogger, and, at least I think from what I've seen so far, lost a lot of it's abilty to really push a colder mass in front of it. Also, I really don't think that the minimal backpressure we are creating with either the bag or the Tee set up is adding to the cooling ability of this design as much as it is preventing the fog from billowing out and mixing with the warmer outside air. If there is a decent breeze (or, in my case, a ceiling fan on low), the fog mixes with the warmer air and still dissipates rapidly.


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## Lunatic

Otaku said:


> Setting up a vortex in a circular container would be easy - just attach a short 45° elbow to the inlet pipe inside the container.


Hmm, 45 degree bend inside a round container to create a vortex, intriguing.


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## CICreations

OK question....I started putting my chiller together tonight. I drilled out the 2 holes on the sides of the 48qt cooler. My question is how is everyone inserting the pipes in the sides of the cooler? I understand the layout of everything but how is everyone sealing around the pipes you push throught the walls of the cooler? Caulk? Duct tape? Just making the pipe a tight fit? Are there any kinds of fittings I can buy? THanks guys!!!


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## Otaku

I used silicone caulking. Just smear it in the seam around the pipe both inside and outside of the cooler. If you missed any spots, you'll see leaks when you fire up the fogger.


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## Fright Zone

We need the Count from Sesame Street to start counting this thread's pages for us: "27! 27 wonderful pages! [insert thunder clap here]". I'm thinking if it's too cold outside on Halloween, I'm going to rent one of those portable heaters they use at football games to warm the yard to make sure the chilled fog temperature is lower than the air it's in LOL I'm just kidding. I don't think I'll do that. Funnny thing at Home Depot down the street last night. The guy in the plumbing dept is following my progress. He said a guy came in and had been given the task of making a fog chiller out of a cooler. So he was looking for hardware mesh (had a photo but didn't know what it was), zip ties and PVC. He had pictures from the Internet LOL.

@ Brad & Otaku et al interesting comments as always.

Fwiw, I was looking at meestercranky's yard haunt pics. You get a good look at the Vortex Fusion in some sort of environment and those do look like 3" PVC pipes for sure. Being painted and next to a cooler & also with a huge outlet PVC attachment. Scroll down through those pages and it'll be obvious.

@ meestercranky:
A) What are the dimensions of the Vortex Fusion once and for all? (I know I should just buy one and find out, but that's no fun LOL)
B) Is the gap between the PVC pipe at the top and the lid 1"? 
C) How far from the bottom are the centers of the inlet and outlet PVC?
D) It looks like the ice tray is 1/3 the height of the chiller, is that correct?
E) How much ice did you use and approx how much melted on Halloween? 
F) What brand and wattage fooger did you use, the Martin Vortex recommends? 
G) How did it perform? (It looks like you're in California where Halloween weather is relatively warm therefore chilled fog should stay low)
H) Were you pleased with the results (and for the price)?


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## Long_Tom

CICreations said:


> My question is how is everyone inserting the pipes in the sides of the cooler? I understand the layout of everything but how is everyone sealing around the pipes you push throught the walls of the cooler? Caulk? Duct tape? Just making the pipe a tight fit? Are there any kinds of fittings I can buy? THanks guys!!!


I like to assemble it by sawing a pipe coupler in half. I put a short piece of pipe through the hole in the side wall (the hole should be the size of the pipe, not the fitting). Then I force-fit the two halves of the coupler onto the pipe, inside and outside the wall. The piece of pipe should be just long enough that the two halves of the coupler fit tightly against the side wall. You can then seal the edge where the wall meets the coupler with caulk, glue, or whatever. Doing it this way gives you some mechanical strength to resist twisting of that joint, which helps keep the seal from failing.

If you wanted to get a little fancier, on the outside you can use a slip-cap-to-threaded adapter. That allows you to insert a threaded plug to seal the unit when not in use. (What for? I dunno... to keep the mice out? Kidding aside, with a bigger Vortex, you might consider putting in multiple outlet ports, for piping fog to multiple locations. You would want to be able to plug any that are not currently in use.)


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## cshann

Thanks for all the information on this topic. 
I'm going to build my first chiller today using the standard Vortex design (2/3 expansion on the bottom 1/3 ice on top) with a 26 gallon trash can (vs. the larger trash can). 
My question to the group is what size PVC should I use; 2" or 3"?
The fogger that I will be using is a FX-8 Fogger with a 700 Watt heater and rated at 3,300 cubic Ft/Min. 
Thanks for all replies in advance.


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## airscapes

2" is what you want. You can always make the hole bigger if it doesn't do what you want.


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## Lunatic

CICreations said:


> OK question....I started putting my chiller together tonight. I drilled out the 2 holes on the sides of the 48qt cooler. My question is how is everyone inserting the pipes in the sides of the cooler? I understand the layout of everything but how is everyone sealing around the pipes you push throught the walls of the cooler? Caulk? Duct tape? Just making the pipe a tight fit? Are there any kinds of fittings I can buy? THanks guys!!!


One way I tried sealing the inlet pipe is to use a thin rubber gasket in between the inside long sweep elbow and the wall of the cooler. The elbow in my case butt's up against the cooler wall. When the outside and inside elbows are glued and compressed together the rubber creates a tight gasket against the wall. I must say that I didn't find a gasket anywhere that would fit perfectly around the 2" (2 3/8" OD) pipe so I just lucked out and had a 2 3/8" round die cutter at work. I found some rubber roofing membrane to cut to make the gasket and simply cut it a little larger than the OD of the elbow. I'm not sure if my description is easily understood. I'll attach a picture on my next post.


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## Lunatic

I tried to add another picture but can't. Can anyone help me explain how to get another picture posted? I only have two from an early post to this thread.


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## meestercranky

Fright Zone said:


> @ meestercranky:
> A) What are the dimensions of the Vortex Fusion once and for all? (I know I should just buy one and find out, but that's no fun LOL)
> B) Is the gap between the PVC pipe at the top and the lid 1"?
> C) How far from the bottom are the centers of the inlet and outlet PVC?
> D) It looks like the ice tray is 1/3 the height of the chiller, is that correct?
> E) How much ice did you use and approx how much melted on Halloween?
> F) What brand and wattage fooger did you use, the Martin Vortex recommends?
> G) How did it perform? (It looks like you're in California where Halloween weather is relatively warm therefore chilled fog should stay low)
> H) Were you pleased with the results (and for the price)?


A - the dimensions vary by model. But I wonder how well the smaller round ones work when you really hit them with fog. Mine is the same size as one of those five gallon construction buckets, and square. So use those - even if round - as your basis. Look at buckets at Home Depot by ROPAK.

B- the gap inside is about three inches

C- the inlet is halfway up the side and the outlet is about as close to the bottom as you can get it, and are at 90 degree angles to each other.

D- the tray is about 1/3 the height from the top, and rests on a lip which is part of the molded interior of the bucket. the tray looked like an old dish drainer or refrigerator shelf.

E- a 20-lb bag fills this model up

F- I used a Martin 800 watt, the recommended one.

Now, I was VERY pleased with the results. I had intended after building the first one from the GOT FOG pages to modify it according to the directions provided - and went to the pages to follow them only to find them gone and this contraption for sale. Istudied it for weeks and sketched out something VERY similar, knowing the principle involved, and finally decided the spend the money since I had more money than time.

It was EXACTLY like I would have built, using a five gallon bucket.

also, I would recommend further modifying the model by adding a few inches to the inlet. This gets the fogger away from the chiller and will make it less turbulen inside the chamber where you're trying to make nice, chilled, creeping fog.

Remember that anything that creates turbulence at any point in this process will work against you to some degree.


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## meestercranky

Just a follow up: Siggy tells me these square ROPAK buckets with the molded lip inside (which supports the shelf) are food industry standards, and things like (gag) mayonnaise (retch) come in them.

Now I AM creeped out.


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## meestercranky

oh yes - and that lid HINGES open allowing you to tend to the ice easily.

So yeah - food service supply would be the place, like Smart and Final or such.


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## Fright Zone

Thanks. I was hoping you'd actually meaure the width, height and depth, and I'd add now, the inlet/outlet PVC diameter for us. 5 gallons sounds more like the Vortex Mini product wih tthe 2" PVC, so that's what you must have instead of the larger Vortex Fusion?

For my part, I tested my Igloo 48qt Ice Cube Vortex-inspired chiller with the 400W Gemmy fogger shooting into the reverse inlet (90 degree PVC to the top inside the chiller) tonight in colder weather. It was 45 degrees in Ohio with no wind. I set the fogger and chiller on the porch and aimed it out on the grass. I tried the black plastic garabge bag tied with twine to the 2" PVC outlet to good results. The bag does slow down the fog. And when the fog exits the bag, it spreads out side-to-side and lays very low to the ground. It rolled across the hilly ground & leaves like a scene from Excalibur. With a bigger fogger I could cover more area, but I was pleased with the results with this set-up. You also have the advantage of being able to very easily & quickly move the bag on the outlet so it aims in a different direction.

I also hooked that up to my 12" plastic cauldron that has a hole in the back of it and a Mini mister inside of it. Using the bag instead of the 3" aluminum dryer duct on the outlet worked great. It really slows down the fog and it lingers a lot more inside the cauldron in combination with the Mini Mister inside the cauldron. Moreso than when I used the pseudo venturi wye adapter on the inlet to slow the velocity down previously. So I may go that route on Halloween. I'm going to use the trash bag on the trash can chiller outlet on Halloween also. I don't have that one around to test until then. I'm going to disguise both chillers with Creepy Cloth from Kmart.


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## CICreations

Ok..im pissed. I spent all day making one of these and Im not happy. I used a 48qt igloo cooler. 2" PVC pipe. a 90 degree on the inlett going up to the top about 1" from the lid of the cooler. I made a ice tray at the 2/3rds mark out of 1/2" PVC pipe and mesh screen. Holds the ice very nicely and fits snug in the cooler. I have the 700W fogger attached to the 2" inlet elbo with a small piece of 2" PVC connecting to a 2" to 1.5" adapter that is made if a high temp rubber and holds on with clamps. I even duct taped the seam around the top of the cooler to keep ANY fog from comming out anywhere but the outlet. I filled the ice tray, filled the fogger with fog juice and started it up. It put out some really cold fog that stuck to the ground...just not much of it. I was around 70 out side with no wind and it was gone by the time the fogger recycled. I tried the outlet with just 2" straight PVC pipe, then I tried putting the 90 on the outlet pipe inside the cooler...no difference. I started to think that the fogger sucked so I took it off and let it run and it filled my entire house with one blast! 

So what the heck man!!! I put alot of time into the is thing and I swear the $40 400W ground fogger I bought at Wal Mart puts more fog out than this chiller is and it only holds like 2 cups of ice??!! Im sorry to vent but OMG I'm so mad this isn't working.


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## CICreations

One more thing. I drilled the inlet hole on one end of the 48qt igloo centered half way, and I drileld the outlet whole on the opposite end centered at the very bottom. Was this wrong? I can't how it would make a difference.


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## JustMatt

CICreations,

It could be the rubber inlet pipe. Conventional wisdom is that you need to have around 3" of air between the fogger and the inlet pipe. Let us know if that helps.


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## Fright Zone

I'd wouldn't use that inlet adapter. I'd use a 3" gap centered between the fogger nozzle and the inlet pipe. The inlet and outlet need to be perpendicular to one anohter, not straight across opposite sides of the cooler. Maybe the 90 degree is a tight bend instead of a sweep elbow which has a more gradual curve to it. The 700w fogger may be too high of a velocity for the 48qt cooler size. I use a 400W fooger and the Vortex Mini product recommends a 400W fogger as well. I'd also use a black plastic trash bag attached to the outlet. Those are the only things that come to mind without seeing a photo of the chiller or a video of the results to compare.


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## Vlad

Hi CI. Here's a few things that need to be changed in my opinion, and following current experiments and trends of thought. You need to disconnect the fogger from the inlet. You need space between them as Just Matt said. Also, If you're using the inlet pipe to vent the fog directly to the top space in the cooler, how much space are you leaving between the inside lid of the cooler, and the top of the ice. That expansion space needs to be 1/3 the volume of the cooler. You said you made an ice tray at the 2/3rds position of the cooler. Is that 2/3rds from the top, or 2/3rds from the bottom? Another question, you said that the fog was gone by the time the fogger recycled, what kind of remote are you using? Is it just the push button kind, or does it have settings for duration and intervals. If you have the better remote, then shorter bursts and timed intervals would lessen the amount of time that it occasionally has to recycle.


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## JustMatt

*Fog Cabin from TheatreFX*

Anyone have experience with this bad boy?

http://theatrefx.com/moreinfo_fog_cabin.html


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## airscapes

All the experimenting realy is unnesscary.. the design works great. Just tested it on a 45 degree night worked great.. will post video in a few


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## CICreations

THe Ice tray is 2/3rds from the bottom. The cooler is roughly 12" deed from the top...not counting the lid space. So I went down 4" from the top with the ice tray. So there's roughly 5" of ice and 1.5" of air space where the inlet pipe sticks out of the ice and fills the lid space and above the ice. Then below the ice there is around 8" of free space between the bottom of the cooler and the bottom of the ice tray. Isnt' this the way I should be doing it? 

This is how the inlet is put together:
Fog machine nozzel-->
1/2" to 2" rubber adapter w/ aluminium sleeve and clamps-->
roughly 3" of 2" PVC pipe-->
I put a 2" coupler in the hole I trilled into the cooler--> 
inside the cooler another 2" of 2" PVC pipe-->
sweeping 90-->
roughly 4" of 2" PVC up to the top of the cooler.


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## JustMatt

*CiCreations*

I still think it's that 1/2" to 2" rubber adapter. Remove it and set the fogger about 3" back from the inlet.


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## CICreations

JustMatt said:


> I still think it's that 1/2" to 2" rubber adapter. Remove it and set the fogger about 3" back from the inlet.


OHHH so you mean don't have it physically connected at all? Will it all shoot into the pipe if it's not actually connected?


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## Fright Zone

No, don't connect the fogger and close off all the air to the inlet. It needs air to create velocity is what it is I think. You need the 3" gap between fogger nozzle and chiller PVC inlet hole AND centered when it shoots fog into that hole. If you use a wye adapter ie. psuedo venturi screwed into the inlet PVC THEN and only then does the other open end of the PVC pipe go right up against the fogger nozzle. The idea being that the second opening of the psuedo venturi PVC wye adapter is facing back away from the chiller/cooler and it forces air in when the fogger shoots fog into the cooler, similar to the 3" gap set-up. BUT I found the psuedo venturi PVC wye adapter also slows the fog output down if you use the reverse inlet (meaning the 90 degree bend pipe as the inlet instead of the outlet). Also you said 5" of ice? I use a 2" level of ice in a 48qt cooler wiht a 400W fogger. Others may disagree and it may depend on the size of the cooler and the wattage of fogger, but when I tried more than 2" of ice, then the 400W fogger fog had trouble getitng thru a thick wall of ice. Also are you using a regular 48qt cooler or an Igloo Ice Cube (that's squarer and taller and therefore is closer in size and shape to the Vortex Mini pails)?


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## CICreations

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!
I took off the adapter and put 3" of space and OMG Ice cold fog started pooring out of the outlet and it filled the whole house in 6" deep fog on the floor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry...just happy to see it working!!!!!! lol Thanks guys....


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## Brad Green

CICreations, get rid of the connector! There is no room for your fogger to draw in any outside air to aid in expansion if you direct connect the fogger to the chiller inlet. Pull the fogger nozzle between 2 1/2" to 3" from your inlet port and you should see a dramatic difference (you will actually see a vacuum effect when the fogger is running). The 90 degree pvc fittings you are using don't really make much difference in your chillers performance, I use the exact same thing on both my 60qt. Igloo and the 10 gal. bucket models I have and they both work great. The outlet pipes on both these chillers are about 1" from the bottom of the lids and I fill the ice level to within 2-3" from the top. I've tried various levels and it does not seem to effect output in the least. As to the relationship of the inlet/outlet, again, I've built them both ways, 90 degrees from one another and straight across from each other with no real affect on performance. The fog is being plumbed to the upper section of the chiller and is forced down by the incoming charge. Stands to reason that the location of the exit hole at that point is of little consequence whether angled from the inlet or straight across from it, it's going to go out regardless. The only problem you may encounter once you remedy the the connetor situation is that it will come out too fast. You can solve that with either the bag attachment of the Count's or my fix with the extension/T/45's that is diagramed in an earlier post on this thread. Don't get frustrated, your's will work with a few simple tweaks.


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## Brad Green

Fright Zone, my best tests with all three chillers I've built ran 10" of ice in the 10gal.models and 8" in the 60 qt Igloo. I've tried other lower depths and the fog didn't lay out as long. I've really seen no decrease in output on any of the tests with the ice level. The only actual decrease I encountered was when I first reported on the psuedo venturi cutting my output dramatically.


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## CICreations

OK....starting to notice something lol....had the fogger running in the house for about 20 mins now.......and the carpet is all cold and wet LOL......maybe I should only use this outside? lol But it's pumping out alot of fog now....Im psyched!


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## airscapes

Ok, we have a very frew days before Halloween.. stop wasting time and just build the freaking cooler.. it works..
60qt cube
1200 watt fogger
2" pipe
Got Fog input pipeing.. ( fogger on top)
2/3 ice chamber 
Ice up to 1 inch of output tube
Output tube 1 inch below lid.
It works, stop messin with it!!!!!
OH and it is 45 degrees ...


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## Fright Zone

LOL this works too, depending on the budget, storage considerations and area/size of low lying fog effect required (or the effect you can live with until you make a larger chiller that holds more ice and accepts the velocity of a much more expensive higher wattage or constant fogger in a much larger area). Note any of these Vortex-style DIY designs should work indoors where there's no wind and the air is warmer than the chilled fog. Outdoors in cold weather it still works pretty well is what's cool about it.

48qt Igloo Ice Cube Cooler
Spray painted with Krylon Fusion Camo Ultra-Flat Black or Satin Finish
Diguised with Creepy Cloth and/ or large 30" tombstone
400W Gemmy Fogger
3" gap between fogger nozzle and inlet pipe (and centered)
2" dia Schedule 40 PVC Pipe
Fogger protected in small black plastic wastebasket
1/3 ice chamber
Ice (regular old ice cubes) approx 7 lbs @ 1" thick works with low wattage fogger (and 3" below the top of inlet pipe or 4" below lid)
OR Ice (regular old ice cubes) approx 14 lbs @ 2" thick works with low wattage fogger (and 2" below the top of inlet pipe or 3" below lid)
Inlet pipe is 90 degree sweep up to within 1" of top of closed lid
Output pipe perpendicular to inlet and 3" centered from bottom of cooler
Black plastic trash back placed on outlet with 2" hole and tied with twine
Optional effect connected to a 3" hole in a plastic cauldron with Mini Mister inside
Fog hugs ground or billows slowly from cauldron in 40 degree weather outside woohoo!
Wind may be a different story but the fog is still chilled nonetheless and lays low or billows


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## Brad Green

My version:
60qt Igloo Ice Cube Cooler
400w Gemmy fogger (or 700w Gemmy-used both)
3" gap between fogger nozzle & inlet pipe (centered)
2/3 ice chamber
Ice-approx. 8" layer-2" below top of lid
Inlet pipe is a standard pvc 90 elbow piped up to 1" of top of closed lid.
Outlet pipe is perpendicular to inlet and centered 4" from outside bottom of cooler.
Fog rolls out flat and stays down in 70 degree FL. weather-one cycle of the 400w covers a 2 car garage floor.


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## Brad Green

Second version:
10 gal. bucket with a screw-on lid.
400w or 700w Gemmy fogger (again, tested with both)
same air gap as above.
same ice chamber depth
Ice-approx. a 10" layer - 2" below lid.
same inlet pipe layout and parts.
Outlet pipe straight across from inlet (it's round, layout makes no difference) 4" from bottom of bucket.
Smaller container does require an outlet restriction when using 700w fogger (i.e. bag or "T" fitting), works fine with 400w fogger.
Again, provides heavy coverage in 70 degree weather, rolled out of the garage and down the driveway with no problem.

As you can see, here alone are four different methods that have some slight variations (ice depth, pipe layout, etc), however, if you stick to the basic design and air-gap, they all seem to work very well, so no one should have any problem building which ever version fits their budget and get outstanding results.


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## Fright Zone

Yes, and the nice thing is that you CAN experiment a little to satisfy your own needs/effects s long as you start with those basic design principles.

@ Brad - How tall & what is the diameter of a 10 gallon bucket?


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## halfcracked

Just finished one tonight using 2 "homer" 5 gal buckets - holds 28+ lbs of ice.
not too bad effect. works well enough where I intend to use it untill a breeze blows up. 

My first test was on my front driveway & the wind kept sweeping up the drive & lifted the leading edge. once I set up in the entryway things worked better.

I used the aluminum duct tape to seal thngs up but I think I might need to switch to great stuff; the tape wasn't liking the acute angles of my setup.

There is definately a vortex in my setup. I used 2" pipes entering & exiting from the sides (tangentially). I tried to keep anything from interupting the flow of the vortex hoping I would get more lateral travel through verticaly stacked ice.

Man I need to get a better fogger. I have an american DJ stage foger w/ wireless remote. It's OK for triggered fog but The up down cycle really kills me.

Tried stacking the fogger on top but the hot fog kept backing up on me beetween shots. So I droped a 2" line outside the chiller & put the fogger on the ground. That stopped the backups.

The fog really shoots out the outlet I'm wondering if a 3" outlet might help create a more rolling fog. I might try the bag trick again in it's final location. I tried a "contractor bag & it only came out of 1/3 of the bag on my first test. didn't try it in the entry.


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## halfcracked

Thought some pics might be good:

Here's the bottom half









Here's where the Ice goes in








notice the trimed inlet to reduce turbulance/interferance with the vortex.

Here's the assembled chiller - note this was taken before I changed the inlet pipe to reach the ground









& some mandatory fog shots:

















grumblecasesensativeimagetagsgrumble


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## Fright Zone

@ airscapes - btw, good to see video of a 1200W fogger andon the top of the chiller to see how it performs in action.

@ halfckracked - Interesting experiment. The fog goes in the top without the aid of a 90 degree shooting to the lid or riding from a lower expasnion chamber, and falls down through the ice in this case. How much of a gap between the inlet and the ice?

The regular thin black palstic trash bag on the outlet trick does work well. The bag's not too heavy. The contractor bag is prbabaly too much bag is why yours didn't work. 

Also notice in a lot of videos how the chilled fog loves to cling to stone, rock, cement, pavement etc. I think the next step is to rip up my yard haunt yard and pour stones and concrete all over it LOL (Seriously I don't think I'm going to the length of watering the lawn on a cold Halloween night!)


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## Brad Green

FrightZone, here are the dimensions of the 10gal. chlorine bucket I used. 14" top tapering down to 12 1/2", 21" tall.

Halfcracked, there is another option for stopping your fogger from billowing and a description and diagram can be found on page 24 of this thread, post #9. I use this on all my chillers and have been very satisfied. As to the problem of sealing the pipe fittings, I use a product called "Plumber's GOOP", it is specifically designed to seal against pvc and other plastics, and once set, it will hold the pipes in place nicely. It can be found at any hardware store and most Walmarts.


----------



## halfcracked

FZ - you're probaly right about the contractor bag being too heavy. It's what I had on hand other than glad drawstring kitchen bags. I'm using 2 90 sweeps now on the outside & setting the fog machine on the ground. there are no pipes inside the chiller itself except for about 2" of the outlet. i left it square to help scoop fog out of the bottom of the vortex I believe I've generated. I'd say with 28 lbs of ice there's a good 9"-12" between the top of the ice & the top of the chiller. The inlet is as close to the top as i could get it.

BG - the plumbers goop sounds like a good idea is it like an epoxy? the way the pipes enter my chiller causes a lot of stress at the joint. I'm also wondering if I could use it to marry the two buckets together. the alum duct sealant id really not holding well on the plastic of the bucket. workd fine on the pipe tho. I was thinking about the great stuff & painting it red the buckets are already holoween orange - hehe

Kind of hide it in plain sight thing. maybe use a jackolantern to hold the top down since the bucket tops just don't quite fit on the bottom. I used a couple of edging stones last night & it held the lid down well enough to stop 99% of the leakage.

Btw when I went back to the chiller this afternon about 11:30 there was still about 4 lbs of ice left in the chiller I ran my tests about 9:00 pm - obviously running the fog machine will make it melt faster but I see this as a good sign. 
BTW our temp over night was maybe 70-74 F.


----------



## Grave Digger

*Question about Ice Tray supports for Vortex Pro*

Dos anyone know what size PVC pipe the ice tray in a Vortex Pro chiller (using the RubberMaid 44 gallon trash can) is using? If no one knows for sure can they make a recommendation? Note this PVC pipe needs to able to support up to 60 pounds of ice.

Also has anyone found a source for expanded metal (as shown here http://www.mcnichols.com/products/expanded/ ) to create the ice shelf for a Vortex Pro size cooler? Ideally that source would be willing to cut to order.

TIA,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


----------



## wilbret

*3" vs 2"*

Long time lurker, long time halloweenforum guy here...

After reading this novel of a thread, I'm ready to pull my chiller from the attic and work on it. I couple years ago I used 3" pipe for the inlet/outlet, in the gotfog design. It worked okay, but the volume was disappointing. I recently got one of those cheap 1200w foggers for a little more umph in the output.

I want to try putting a 90 inside the cooler as shown many times here, but would prefer not having to hack another cooler. Is 3" id Pipe just too big to get the desired effect?

Thanks,
wil


----------



## gmacted

wilbret said:


> Long time lurker, long time halloweenforum guy here...
> 
> After reading this novel of a thread, I'm ready to pull my chiller from the attic and work on it. I couple years ago I used 3" pipe for the inlet/outlet, in the gotfog design. It worked okay, but the volume was disappointing. I recently got one of those cheap 1200w foggers for a little more umph in the output.
> 
> I want to try putting a 90 inside the cooler as shown many times here, but would prefer not having to hack another cooler. Is 3" id Pipe just too big to get the desired effect?
> 
> Thanks,
> wil


You could buy a 3" to 2" reducer if you used PVC pipe.


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## Smelly-Skelly

You could use a small piece of plywood as a baffle and cut a 2" hole in it. I did this with my 4" pipe as it wsa too big for the 32 gallon can I made. I have not tested it yet as it takes about 60 lbs of ice to fill.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Grave Digger said:


> Dos anyone know what size PVC pipe the ice tray in a Vortex Pro chiller (using the RubberMaid 44 gallon trash can) is using? If no one knows for sure can they make a recommendation? Note this PVC pipe needs to able to support up to 60 pounds of ice.
> 
> Also has anyone found a source for expanded metal (as shown here http://www.mcnichols.com/products/expanded/ ) to create the ice shelf for a Vortex Pro size cooler? Ideally that source would be willing to cut to order.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Grave Digger
> 
> :xbones:


I made a similar chiller last year. For the tray I use 1/2 pvc in a 32 gallon can and it held about 60 lbs ice no troubles. As for the metal I got mine at Home Depot (had to buy two pieces as the large size I needed was sold out at that moment. I just cut them to fit and over lapped them in the chiller. I posted some pics a while back, not sure what page it was.


----------



## wilbret

*Reducer*

So if I reduce the diameter of the pipe to 2", you think I'll get better results? The reducer and elbow would put my outlet in the center of the cooler.

Or should I just scrap the cooler and go to all 2" pipe?


----------



## wilbret

Grave Digger said:


> Dos anyone know what size PVC pipe the ice tray in a Vortex Pro chiller (using the RubberMaid 44 gallon trash can) is using? If no one knows for sure can they make a recommendation? Note this PVC pipe needs to able to support up to 60 pounds of ice.
> 
> Also has anyone found a source for expanded metal (as shown here http://www.mcnichols.com/products/expanded/ ) to create the ice shelf for a Vortex Pro size cooler? Ideally that source would be willing to cut to order.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Grave Digger
> 
> :xbones:


You can get that at HD, Lowes, Hardware stores, etc. It's not cheap, though. Have you considered trying those lighting grids for drop ceilings?


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## Grave Digger

Smelly-Skelly said:


> I made a similar chiller last year. For the tray I use 1/2 pvc in a 32 gallon can and it held about 60 lbs ice no troubles. As for the metal I got mine at Home Depot (had to buy two pieces as the large size I needed was sold out at that moment. I just cut them to fit and over lapped them in the chiller. I posted some pics a while back, not sure what page it was.


Smelly-Skelly,

What tool did you use to cut the Extended Metal with?

TIA,
Grave Digger

:xbones:


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

wilbret said:


> So if I reduce the diameter of the pipe to 2", you think I'll get better results? The reducer and elbow would put my outlet in the center of the cooler.
> 
> Or should I just scrap the cooler and go to all 2" pipe?


Do you have a photo of your cooler?

As for better results it seems everyone is getting good results with this size piping. When I tired mine last year with the 4", it did not create enough back pressure and too much front pressure from the fogger and 4" inlet. The fog came out cold, but not cold enough to hung the ground like a blanket as others are getting.

This is why I cut a piece of plywood to insert in my inlet and outlet (already set up in the vortex manner) to create better working pressure on both ends. This will allow me to experiment even further by taking the insert out of the inlet, then the outlet and then both again to make sure.

You could just run 3" all around and add the insert if you are concerned about the interior space and the 3"-2" sticking too far into the cooler.

My .02


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## wilbret

No photos on hand, but I can post later. Basically, my chiller is essentially this design: http://wolfstone.halloweenhost.com/HalloweenTech/fogchl_FOTR2005_setup.jpg

Input and output on lower level, ice shelf above, typical igloo cooler. I had good results but the output didn't do my little cemetery much good.


----------



## Otaku

I'm using a 1.5" pipe inlet and outlet, with a 1.5" to 3" adapter on the outlet pipe. I then run about 2' of 3" pipe to a trash bag. The pressure drop in the 3" pipe gives the fog a chance to slow down and the trash bag spreads it out.

I tried to insert a baffle system in my chiller this weekend to guide the fog through the ice, but realized that you really need to design for this right from the start. Also, the concave shape of the cooler lid made it very difficult to seal against the tops of the baffle plates. Next year's design, maybe.


----------



## incubus0

I also built the gotfog version, and was disapointed, then found this thread.

I'm going to modify it tonight, anyone try this with 2 Gemmy 400w using a Y connector?


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

Grave Digger said:


> Smelly-Skelly,
> 
> What tool did you use to cut the Extended Metal with?
> 
> TIA,
> Grave Digger
> 
> :xbones:


I used my jigsaw to make the cuts, a little ugly but it got the job done. since I made changes to my chiller and moved the tray lower in order to reverse flow, expansion chamber on top then ice layer, then out the bottom, I will either have to cut the metal again or create a new tray, was thinking chicken wire folded over or something similar


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

incubus0 said:


> I also built the gotfog version, and was disapointed, then found this thread.
> 
> I'm going to modify it tonight, anyone try this with 2 Gemmy 400w using a Y connector?


If you are talking "Y" connector for the venturi effect, sounds like everyone is skipping this one and going wth a straight in approach with the fogger 3" from the inlet, no "Y" pipe.


----------



## CICreations

What if you used a 2" Y at the inlet and set 2 fog machines side by side each one pointed at one of the Y inlets 3" away? Would that work or would it the fog just pour out of the other inlet of the Y since it would be hard to have both fog machines going at the exact same time. Just a thought of course.....


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

wilbret said:


> No photos on hand, but I can post later. Basically, my chiller is essentially this design: http://wolfstone.halloweenhost.com/HalloweenTech/fogchl_FOTR2005_setup.jpg
> 
> Input and output on lower level, ice shelf above, typical igloo cooler. I had good results but the output didn't do my little cemetery much good.


Your design should be easy to switch over, as many others that have posted has done the same. There has also been some discussion on how the vertical shape of the chiller make effect the cooling results. With your longer length, I don't think having additional pipe inside the expansion chanber will make a big difference.

I even made a chiller out of one of those 18 gallon totes last year but made it with 3" piping. Again I think the bigger size does not create the needed back pressure to cool the fog, so I will need to play with this one as well.

The back pressure is why many members are also playing with the outlet pipe and bag thing.


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

CICreations said:


> What if you used a 2" Y at the inlet and set 2 fog machines side by side each one pointed at one of the Y inlets 3" away? Would that work or would it the fog just pour out of the other inlet of the Y since it would be hard to have both fog machines going at the exact same time. Just a thought of course.....


Actually this was an idea presented by Wil to me last year when using a large size chiller (trash can size) you could set the foggers to shot opposite of each other, or at least close.

I think if you shoot the fog into the pipe with the 90 bend it would be hard for the fog to come back out due to heat rising. Could be a great experiment for someone wanting to try using larger foggers on a continous basis.


----------



## wilbret

*y adapter*

Is the consensus now to get rid of the y adapter/fake venturi and simply shoot directly into the chiller, provided there is 3" of space between the nozzle and inside of chiller?


----------



## Long_Tom

wilbret said:


> Is the consensus now to get rid of the y adapter/fake venturi and simply shoot directly into the chiller, provided there is 3" of space between the nozzle and inside of chiller?


Correct.


----------



## incubus0

Smelly-Skelly said:


> If you are talking "Y" connector for the venturi effect, sounds like everyone is skipping this one and going wth a straight in approach with the fogger 3" from the inlet, no "Y" pipe.


No, it meant having 2 machines at the intake, and using a Y connector for them. I read where it said the pseudo venturi was only if you have a more powerful machine pushed right up to the intake.

I actually read all 30+ pages of this thread (that's commitment), didn't see it mentioned anywhere, and was wondering if anyone had actually tried it.

I forgot to hit Home Depot to pick up the extra PVC pieces, got side tracked at a Party Store buying rubber body parts and more blood, so I won't be trying it out tonight anyway.

I did take the gotfog version I built, and pushed all the ice to the outlet side, making an expansion area, then jammed ice in the tube on the outlet side too, forcing the fog through it to exit, which did make a big difference in the fog being thicker and slightly lower to the ground.


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## Fright Zone

Page 32. Call me Ishmael, I got fog.

@ incubus0 - I thought about using two foggers into a Wye adapter into the same chiller inlet, since I have two 400W Gemmy's (one is a Mini from this year and the other is the regular one from last year). But I only have one of those foggers with me at the moment, as my yard haunt will be 4 hours from here and needed to take as much stuff up as possible. Also, Instead of the regular Wye PVC adapter to acccept two foggers, I thought about using the Double Wye I have (which is three pipes in one piece) and closing the middle of the three holes with a PVC cap. It would be more symmetrical than a regular Wye adapter. It could be difficult to get the two foggers to shoot fog at the same time even with timers. I think you could get close. But I found the intervals on the Gemmy timers are more like guidelines and not exact, when I timed it with my Timex's lap timer last month for about 8 cycles on the same fogger uaing the same timer. I also worry how much fog gets shot into the other Wye on the other side at the other fogger's nozzle, which I don't think is good for any fogger.

@ Gravedigger - The Vortex Pro uses 4" PVC pipe according to the manual we found online.

@ wilbret - I'd hope you'd be the first to be brave enough to try the 3" PVC. The Vortex Fusion uses a 3" PVC. The Vortex Mini uses the 2" PVC. I've gathered the Vortex Fusion is roughly the size of a 60qt+ cooler, the Mini is roughly the size of a 48qt cooler. Apparently the Vortex products have no problem with back pressure (?) And I would worry that the "egg crate" plastic lighting grids may be too brittle for an ice tray, especially when chilled with ice, but I don't know for a fact. Someone on this monster of a thread was using it and the Vortex products use some sort of plastic grid that looks like that.


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## Grave Digger

Fright Zone said:


> Page 32. Call me Ishmael, I got fog.
> 
> @ Gravedigger - The Vortex Pro uses 4" PVC pipe according to the manual we found online.


Agreed.

But I was referring to the PVC pipe support structure that holds up the ice try.

Also as a FYI to those interested in the cost of building the commercial version of Wil's Vortex Pro fog chiller.... and why he sells it for $450.00.

I called a metal fabricator (at a boat yard - "American Marine" in New Bern, NC) today to check on the price of getting a 20 3/4 inch circular piece of Extended Metal cut to serve as the ice shelf in a DIY 44 gallon Vortex Pro. I was quoted $300.00 for the materials and labor (with a 4 week delay). And the price was even higher if I wanted it made of stainless steel, or aluminum.

My first thought was WTF? My next question was: "Why so expensive?" I was informed this was due to the fact that they would have to order a whole sheet of Extended Metal for this job (which I would have to eat the cost for). Had the fabricator already had scrap Extended Metal at the shop (left over from another job) he would have charged a lower price (labor plus a charge for the scrap metal).

I guess that's what I get for going to a metal fabricator. I'll call a welder tomorrow and see if he sings the same tune or is more reasonable. Welders always seem to have all sorts of scrap metal (translation junk) in their scrap yard.

If he doesn't have what I need I'll check (as one or two of you have mentioned) at Lowes and pick up a piece of Extended Metal from them and have the welder take his cutting torch to it and cut it like i need it.

Any idea what a sheet of Expanded Metal will run at Lowes or HD?

TIA,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


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## Long_Tom

I made a medium-sized Vortex style chiller today. The particulars:
-- 20 gallon Brute trash can
-- 3" ABS pipe and fittings throughout
-- plastic lightfixture "eggcrate" for the ice tray
-- ice tray is 7 inches off the bottom
-- holds up to 40 pounds of ice.
-- run in the "reverse" direction (fog in through the vertical pipe)

Amazingly, this one did not perform much differently from the 5-gallon Home Depot bucket version I made a few days ago. With the LiteFX 700 watt model, the fog tends to rise to about 2-3 feet before settling again (provided the air currents in the yard don't disperse whatever rises off the ground). I'm going to have to try the trash bag on the outlet to see if I can reduce the billowing at the exit when I use the LiteFX 700 watt.

Right now my favorite combination is the 5-gallon Home Depot bucket chiller paired with a LiteFX 1200 Constant fogger, no outlet baggie required. The fog barely rises off the ground. I'm using that in my side yard because it is a confined space and the ground is mostly bare, so the fog spreads really nicely while staying low. (It gets stuck in the grass in the back yard, and doesn't spread out to cover the whole lawn.) It is also small and easy to tuck out of the way.


----------



## Long_Tom

Grave Digger said:


> Any idea what a sheet of Expanded Metal will run at Lowes or HD?


I was at HD today. I think it was something like 18 dollars for a 24"x24" piece of expanded steel. I didn't see any expanded aluminum. Orchard Supply might have some.

You probably could do something that worked quite well out of a 1/2" hardware cloth (welded mesh), clipped to a ring the right diameter made of of 8-gauge fence wire. You can support the wire ring around the perimeter by inserting machine screws through the sidewalls of the enclosure, fortified with fender washers. I use this technique successfully in my 5-gallon bucket chiller.


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## Grave Digger

Fright Zone said:


> Page 32. Call me Ishmael, I got fog.
> 
> @ Gravedigger - The Vortex Pro uses 4" PVC pipe according to the manual we found online.


What size hole saw does one need to cut a hole for 4" PVC pipe?

TIA,

Grave Digger

:xbones:

P.S.
I'll be using a 1600 watt continious fogger so I'm anxious to build a large chiller (Vortex Pro size chiller) and see what this puppy can do.

FYI: To anyone interested in the fogger, I've ordered a Martin Magnum Pro 2000. http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=magnumpro2000  
Yep! There goes my budget right out the window. The things we do just to scare the neighboor's kids.


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## Lunatic

*Igloo Cube 60 qt with 700 watt fogger results*

Alright, so I finally finished building my first chiller. My post is a little lengthy so I apologize but wanted to share my observations and test results. It's the 60 qt. Igloo Cube with 2" PVC with the fogger on top of the cooler. This is based on the reverse Vortex design. The only difference is the inlet was entered into the middle of the side above the ice tray and 90 degree bend straight up inside to about 1 inch below the lid. I used long sweep elbows for all turns and the outlet is straight out the bottom front and perpendicular to the inlet.

The ice tray is made with 1/2 inch wire mesh screwed to a ¾" pvc frame and placed just above the outlet at about 4.5" from the bottom, the ice area above that is about 10" and the top expansion area a couple inches. I used only 20 pounds of ice for testing which left a much larger expansion area. I expect that it will hold at least 30 pounds of ice or more and I will do so when the time comes. I need the fog as cold as possible in this colder Boston climate.

During testing it was 46 degrees outside with slight intermittent wind. It's a bummer that wind is a serious factor but I still achieved some good results. Alternately, I tried running the fogger on the top of the lid and on the ground with similar results. Minor blowback from the inlet was observed when the fogger was heating up and it was slightly more than placing the fogger on the ground. It appeared to be mostly caused by the fogger being higher off the ground and the wind catching it more easily. So I'm pretty much convinced that where I place the fogger isn't a huge concern but it's good to know it can be easily switched. I didn't glue any of the inlet piping so I can easily switch it out and fortunately it suffers no leaks. Slight leakage around the lid was evident and cured by 3/8" foam weather stripping.

I evaluated the best method for the outlet between using an 18" with a tee and 45's like Brad and also the bag method. What I found was that the bag, although it worked well, eventually became too wet inside and added to much weight and hindered the flowing fog to a degree. Because I live in the Boston area the cold moisture condenses pretty rapidly so I have many forces working against me unlike a warmer area of the country. I compared the double 45's and a single 45 coming off the 18" outlet and got mixed results, probably because of the wind and cold temperature. The single 45 pointed downward worked ok. I did notice that the longer I tested the longer the fog lingered and hugged the ground, likely due to the grass getting wet. I now understand why some people wet the ground. I may do this and find it essential in the colder climate. You can't predict the temperature here until the day approaches because even though it can be cool it can also be quite mild like the last couple years, which was perfect and no wind!

I'm wondering that because it's typically cooler here that using a little dry ice would help to further cool the fog with better results but it's a price I'm not willing to pay. I guess a bigger cooler would be best in that situation but I'm sticking with the 60 quart. The biggest shortcoming other than wind and cold temperature, I didn't like the down time for the FX700 watt fogger during cycling. It takes too long for it to warm back up so I may just run two foggers and two chillers alternately to lessen the time gap. The other option would be to go with a more powerful continuous fogger but the ice melts quicker. Speaking of foggers, the cheaper foggers as I've read produce a wetter fog due to incomplete heating of the Fog Juice. Higher quality foggers like the Martin Magnum claims that theirs produce a much drier fog which I can only guess to equal better fog results. I may look into it because of the cool moist air we get here.

Here's my observation on ice. I noticed that the ice melts together and reduces the flow of fog. I read somewhere in this discussion that ice shape and size matters in producing a nice porous ice wall. Someone mentioned that ice cubes from their refrigerator worked best for them which I think may be the half round type. My ice was 10 lb bags from the grocery store that was broken up to a large range of sizes which clogs the ice wall, especially as it melts. I'm going to look at purchasing ice "cubes" from an ice house that is near me.

Bottom line, I liked the results but the outside climate plays a huge roll in fog qualities so the setup for me has to be a little more aggressive. I'm considering purchasing a higher quality fogger for a dry fog along with quality ice cubes and more of it and then see what I get. Otherwise, I want to sincerely thank everyone in this discussion thread for sharing their designs and methods to help me build a great chiller. I couldn't and wouldn't have done it without your help. Thanks again!


----------



## airscapes

When the 60qt cooler seems to not be working as well as it did.. 1.5 -2 hours of use, drain water from cooler (have to tilt it back), use hammer to breakup and redistribute ice.


----------



## Fright Zone

@ Lunatic & @ airscapes - Intersting observations. Good point also about the water collecting and how the ice may melt. When I emptied mine after a short test the thought crossed my mind not only that there will be less ice but a lot of water collecting at the bottom over time. AHlowoen will be th efirst and only time mine run for 2 hours. Looks like some maintenance or attention is required, not just plug and play.

@ Gravedigger - Looks like the hole size for 4" PVC is 4.5"OD

http://www.pvcplus.com/PVC schedule_40_&_80_pipe.htm


----------



## Hellspawn

New to the Forum, but not new to Halloween craziness :voorhees: 

First off I would like to thank everyone who has spent so many hours, money and resources to run all these various tests for the community! :jol: 

I thought I would post my experience with my first chiller for others.

I built the vortex chiller out of a 5 gallon bucket for a neighbor of mine (aka lab rat) just to see how it would handle various size foggers and to see if I could get away with a smaller fogger for myself ($$$)

I used 2'' pvc with a short sweep 90 degree angle, used 1/4'' hardware cloth doubled over on a 1/2'' pvc rack that sits approx 4'' from the bottom of the chiller (ice rack) with ice filling the remainder of the chiller to within 1-1/2'' of the top (top of stand pipe) 

I also had the best results with using the 90 degree side as the inlet, with a 1000w fitco fogger, the fog hugs the ground nicely but blows through the chiller too fast to be 100% effective, adding the bag on the outlet side helps alot, but still, alittle too much power for this little chiller (but still VERY pleased with the results) 

a 700w LiteFX fogger had better results than my 1000w fitco, fog stays on the ground longer and seems much thicker (less power=fog stays in cooler longer=colder fog?=better results)

a 400w Fogger I tested from Walmart had a funky narrow outlet on the machine which was difficult to get a direct blast from the machine into the chiller and so I wasnt able to effectively test it, I tried to rig it so as much as the fog would get into the inlet of the chiller as possible but there just wasnt enough power to blow the fog through quickly (fog crept out of the outlet of the chiller)

My neighbor wanted to be able to fill his large outdoor fountain with thick heavy fog that stayed in the bottom basin and by placing the 700w fogger right up against the input of the chiller (no 3'' gap) the chiller was able to fill this large fountain basin with very thick rolling fog that stayed in the basin long enough for the fogger to recycle and send out more fog. (Salt Lake City area, 45 degree temp, light wind)

I may go out and buy a wye adapter and use that to see if it has a better effect for him just for kicks, but with the results we got, we were very pleased and for under 15.00 in parts, I have no reason to complain.

I picked up the smallest brute garbage can (32 gallons?) the 20.00 one and plan on using that for my 1000w fitco, im going with 2'' pipe with a LONG sweep 90 degree angle, screen up 1/3 with ice filling the last 2/3.

My only concern is the weight of the ice on my 1/4 hardware cloth screen, with this round container, its going to be difficult to fabricate a round pvc frame for the lightweight screen, I may try and heat up pvc (with considerations made for safety) to bend the pvc and use zip ties or self tapping HVAC metal screws with fender washers to hold the screen to the frame.

Im also considering having the screen sit completely under the 90 degree angle so that I will not have to cut a hole in the screen to accomidate the pipe.

Honestly, I dont think you can go wrong either way with this design, the main factor is the size of the chiller in relation to the size of your fogger, in some applications a cheap 15.00 5 gal bucket chiller can perform as well as a 30.00+ cooler version.

For all these years I have wanted one, I have put off buying a fogger becuase of not being able to get the desired effect, I am so excited that there is finally a chiller design that is so simple and inexpensive for all of us home haunters.  

Thanks again for everyones input on this thread, I read every single post and loved every minute of it!


----------



## EvilGrin

Otaku said:


> I tried to insert a baffle system in my chiller this weekend to guide the fog through the ice, but realized that you really need to design for this right from the start. Also, the concave shape of the cooler lid made it very difficult to seal against the tops of the baffle plates. Next year's design, maybe.


So theoretically we could modify your version by using a PVC enlarger to make the top part of the 2 inch PVC pipe with the 90 degree bend entering the chiller the correct size to fit into dryer vent tubing and bury several twists and turns of the tubing in the ice before it goes completely up into the expansion area and that would create the baffle system you were referring to and make a combination between that Trash can with dryer vent model and the many versions of the Vortex/modified Vortex. Would that be the easiest way to design one or am I being unnecessarily dense? Or do I not even understand what you are trying to explain? If I underrstand it correctly it sounds like another wonderful tweak, along with the trash bag idea... I'm running out of experimentation time as my MIL is visiting; golf may be a wonderful pastime to her, but I would rather be decorating or prop building 

BTW great job continuing the discussion everyone, If people stopped and quit tweaking when we got something that worked, we wouldn't even have the vortex model to play around with...:jol:


----------



## Otaku

Here's what I was attempting to build:

http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3633

As you can see, you really need to have this in mind when you start, and I don't have a spare cooler to play with. The fog path would snake through the baffles, which are packed top to bottom with ice. The screened areas keep the ice from falling out. The tops of the baffles need to seal against the cooler lid to prevent the fog from bypassing the ice. No ice tray is used. I'm not sure if this design would create excessive backpressure, but I plan to try this sometime in the spring.


----------



## Hellspawn

Otaku said:


> Here's what I was attempting to build:
> 
> http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3633
> 
> As you can see, you really need to have this in mind when you start, and I don't have a spare cooler to play with. The fog path would snake through the baffles, which are packed top to bottom with ice. The screened areas keep the ice from falling out. The tops of the baffles need to seal against the cooler lid to prevent the fog from bypassing the ice. No ice tray is used. I'm not sure if this design would create excessive backpressure, but I plan to try this sometime in the spring.


Perhaps, you could theoretically place a peice of thick furniture foam over the top of the baffle setup (on top of the ice) and it would seal up any excess space cause by a goofy shaped lid, use some latches to hold the whole thing together and presto.

Otaku, you have really got me thinking here, if it wasnt the 13th hour allready, I would play with this idea, this will be a good after halloween project.

Seems like it would work very well indeed, the fog would be forced to stay in the cooler for a much longer period which is what the ultimate goal is here.


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## EvilGrin

Otaku said:


> Here's what I was attempting to build:
> 
> http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3633
> 
> As you can see, you really need to have this in mind when you start, and I don't have a spare cooler to play with. The fog path would snake through the baffles, which are packed top to bottom with ice. The screened areas keep the ice from falling out. The tops of the baffles need to seal against the cooler lid to prevent the fog from bypassing the ice. No ice tray is used. I'm not sure if this design would create excessive backpressure, but I plan to try this sometime in the spring.


Thanks so much for the clarification. I'm not always very good at translating words into a the visual picture but you went ahead and gave me a visual picture... lol Now I am getting really curious and wanting to havew a go at a few and tweak some myself. Would the one I posted work? Would it help the people having the problems of a high wattage fogger overpowering their fog chiller setup? The twists and turns of the dryer ducting would slow things down, the dryer ducting would be buried in ice so the fog is still chilling, and there would still be expansion room at the top. The biggest problem I see (and admittedly I am not good at this like yall are, so maybe I am missing something here) would be turbulence caused from the ridges in the dryer ducting or fog cooling down too quickly and condensing back to liquid form inside the dryer ducting (or whatever you call the stuff -yall know what I mean anyway I am sure even if I am calling it the wrong thing) This seems like it might work for the people with the big 60 to 120 quart coolers though since they don't have the amount of vertical space some of the cube coolers have. Although people have reported success with the 5 gallon bucket chillers, and that isn't much vertical space either. :jol:


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## Brad Green

HOLY CRAP Gravedigger! $300 dollars for a 20" expanded metal circle??? This guy must be REAL proud of his work! All the ice trays in my coolers are exanded steel attached to a welded steel 'leg work frame' and covered in a metal cloth screen to avoid losing small ice shards. I may have $10 material in each one, the one pictured is in a 60 qt. Igloo cube. A whole sheet of expanded metal should run you no more than $25 (4' x 8') and can be cut with a circular saw and a metal cutting blade. Wear safety glasses because these blades are friction cutter and throw a lot of sparks. Expanded metal isn't that hard to deal with and certainly not worth $300. Man, I didn't pay that much to have the straight-axle built for my drag car.



The set pictured here doesn't even need legs, I just rivited aluminum angle to the sides as ledges and set the rack in place.


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## Fright Zone

@ Brad - on page 27 Mr. A shows your solution of an 2" dia x 18" PVC length to a T connector and then two 45's as an outlet attachment. Is there anything magic to the 18" measurement or just arbitrary? And how are the 45's aimed at the ground, straight down or pointed at a 45 degree angle towards the front if looking at it from the side? I have extra 2" PVC left over and want to try it as an alternative since Lunatic brings up a good point about the garbage bag eventually getting wet inside. Might as well try it.


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## edwood saucer

Hey guys - I apologize for asking this...

After all this research and experimentation - has anybody posted revised plans anywhere? (the thought of digging through 34 pages of everyones hard work to decypher what works and what doesn't frankly intimidates me)


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## Otaku

Although I'm satisfied with the performance of my chiller (Vortex-modified FOTR, 1.5" inlet, 1.5" outlet w/2' of 3" pipe attached to the outlet, and a trash bag or similar distributor) I plan to test it with a couple of small frozen water bottles in the 3" outlet pipe. I probably would try making one of the 10' water bottle chillers, except that they're so difficult to use and store.


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## wilbret

I was going to say the same thing. Use your circular saw or a grinder.
I simple 3-1/4 grinder will cost you maybe 30 bucks and you can use it to cut rebar, too.

Heck, buy or rent an acetylene torch and cut it yourself. I promise you, cutting with a torch is not rocket science. (well, it is sort of) 

Or just buy the metal and go to a muffler shop. Pay the guy $20 if you feel so compelled. It will take him 10 seconds.


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## Brad Green

Frightzone: The 18" is arbitrary, no real design, I just wanted to get it away from the chiller. As to the 45's, they are angled slightly towards the front at a 30 to 45 degree angle. It tended to billow when pointed straight down and the whole idea was to keep the flow low enough to avoid mixing with the warmer air layers as much as possible.
Edwood: On page 30, both Frightzone and I posted descriptions of our chillers, other than that, just cruise for the posts with pictures.


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## edwood saucer

Thanks Brad!

Hey a quick comment about cutting... you might be able to find a cutting disk at the hardware store that you attach to your drill. Cheap and easy - just have to watch for shatter...


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## BadOleRoss

I just finished assembling a Vortex chiler using a 44 gallon Brute w/3"PVC. I have seen a lot of discussion regarding the metal ice tray. I used metal lathe that you can pick up at lowes for about $8.00. In the concrete area. It comes in a 2' x 8' sheet and you will need to cut it with a pair of snips. I used 3 layers to support the ice but for $8........it was cheap.


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## Fright Zone

@ Brad - Thanks. I tried the T to two 45's with not too much success using the small 400W fogger and the 48 qt Igloo Cube, but I'll try it again. What did work OK was simply putting a 2" dia 45 degree PVC elbow on the outlet which shot the cold fog down to the ground. I also noticed once again my set-up works best with less ice (1-2" instead of 3-4") maybe due in part to it needing a fog expansion area at the top, as I use the 1/3 ice ratio set-up instead of 2/3 ratio of the chiller height. Or maybe also becasue of the smaller wattage fogger and the store bought cheap-o ice. In the past I had noticed it works better with ice made in the ice cube trays in the refrigerator freezer as has been reported previously. I also tried the Hefty 33 gallon garabge bag again, but this time tied it with twine to the 45 degree PVC elbow at the outlet, and that works good too, although it may cause more condensation if I ran it for a couple hours with it shooting straight down in the bag.


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## Brad Green

Apologies; I probably should have clarified that when I tested the 'T' arrangement, it was on one of the 10gal. bucket chillers using a 700w fogger, and I was trying to slow down the tremendous billowing I was getting from the unit. I got similar results with the Igloo when I used a down-turned 45 and a 400w Gemmy. As far as ice goes, I kinda cheat because I have constant access to an industrial size ice maker.


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## Fright Zone

Actually you know what, when I was looking at my T & 45 results (I can return the T but I'll use the two 45's on the outlets of the Igloo and the trash can chillers I think) I remembered you did it in the first place because of the small 10 gallon bucket. But for some reason it escaped me as soon as I thought about it!

It's scary how that store bought ice sticks together. I don't now what exactly they make it out of LOL I can use it just fine for the trash can chiller. I'm going to start collecting refrigerator ice cubes til Halloween since I don't use much in the Igloo anyhow.


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## NEP

Wow! What a great thread! Got to be one of the best "forum" threads I have read!

Thought I would share a few observations:

I quickly threw together a chiller following lots of yall's posts and advice...
Used an old Igloo Polar Roller - probably around a 50 quart or so...
Used 2" PVC, with a 1/3 ratio air chamber on bottom with 2/3 ratio above the ice tray. Used 1/2" PVC for tray support. Long sweeping 90 degree on INTAKE up to 1" from lid, straight pipe out at bottom under the ice tray...Nothing new here...But I did find a good use for two Wooster®
5 Gallon Spreader Screen from Lowes....I used them for my Ice Tray! They fit perfectly in this size cooler, and they are cheap! Only $2.88 ea! Now thats cheap expanded metal! I am using the Wal-mart 400w low lying fogger that I modifed....I got rid of the pathetic ice chamber doohicky...and now have room for my 2" PVC intake pipe. This little fogger works surprising very well...My results with my chiller are fantastic! I do prefer to use the "reverse" design(using the Vortex design in reverse) mainly because there is NO backflow and leaking from the fogger in between cycles...because the HOT fog from the small "spits" after a cycle, is allowed to flow up the stack to the top of the chiller and then filter down through the ice...so the chiller is trickling fog out...when I used it the normal way...in between cycles the fog would just back out the inlet and float up every where...
The other thing I noticed that is that in the reverse mode, the up stack pipe to the top of the chiller is being heated by the hot fog, and thus melts the ice surrounding it, which causes an air gap to form around the pipe. This give the fog a small, easy bypass to the bottom of the chiller, but not to much to be worried about. I may wrap the intake pipe above the ice tray with some 1/8" foam to help with this.
Sorry for the rambling...
Thanks for such a great discussion!
Cheers,
NEP


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## Grave Digger

wilbret said:


> I was going to say the same thing. Use your circular saw or a grinder.
> 
> Or just buy the metal and go to a muffler shop. Pay the guy $20 if you feel so compelled. It will take him 10 seconds.


Well the the reason I called a metal fab company in the first place was one of low cost and speed.. I was hoping they'd have scrap metal on site and it would only take a few minutes of their time (and not much money). Boy was I wrong. Not owning anything to cut expanded metal with myself was the other reason for looking at a commerical soluntion. Some would say... "well ask a borrow a neighboors saw". Well being from the south (not the deep south mind you but from the south never-the-less) there are three things you don't lend to or ask to borrow from a neighbor. A boat, a chain saw, or your/their wife (listed in order of importance). Because they're never returned to their owner in the same condition they were when they were 1st picked up.

After getting a price quote.. "those folks must really be proud of their work...." :googly: I'll say! From the sound of things they had more work than they could handle... so it sounds like it was "we can do it... but it's gonna cost you out the a$$."

My next thought was a welder. Good idea on picking up the metal at Lowes and just having the welder cut it. Then it's just a labor issue.

Using a welding shop (or muffler shop) to do the cutting, I would hope would be cheaper than having to buy a jigsaw and blades and do it myself. Of course if I already owned a jigsaw I wouldn't be writing this and the issue would be closed. Thanks for the ideas guys. I'll let you know what I end up doing.

TIA,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


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## Daphne

Wow, everyone has really worked on these chillers. I just found this site a couple days ago (it took that long to get through this thread!) and it is really informative. If you don't mind, I need clarification/help on a couple things.

My VEI V-930T DJ fogger just arrived and since I want to use it for a graveyard scene for Halloween, it appears I am going to need a chiller. Since outside temperature is important to results, I live in GA. 

From what I understand, It sounds like the reverse input is the way to go (input into elbow and vertical section almost to the top), height of the chiller is important and using an insulated cooler is not necessary. People seem to have differing results with regards to the 2/3 expansion - 1/3 ice or vice versa so I assume I have to try that both ways to see which works better. Y'all are also using smaller foggers (400W, 700W) so I am concerned about overwhelming a chiller. My fogger is 1000W and I know that changes things somewhat on sizing. Anyway, here are my questions.

1. I was considering either the 32 or 44 gallon Brute garbage can (more height than a cooler). It sounds like you can potentially use a smaller container if you have more height but I could be wrong. Since some people are having to throttle down their chillers with bags/PVC, I would like to try to get close on the size and then use those methods as needed to fine tune. Am I going too small with the 32 or 44? Brad used a tall 10 gallon bucket for a 1200W as I recall so I can see throttling that down or does the added height compensate for the smaller size? Also, if I go too large, isn't that going to create problems with the fog trying to get through that much ice?

2. Since the Vortex Fusion uses 3" PVC I am curious if I am making a mistake using the 2"?

Thanks so much for your help


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## Fright Zone

I encourage somebody ANYBODY new or old to the proceedings after 35 pages to finally try the 3" diameter PVC since the Vortex Fusion uses it. I still after all this time do not know the exact actual dimensions of the Fusion to compare it to the different capacity coolers (knowing also that the coolers are either wide or cubes and the Vortex Fusion is a tall rectangle) but I'd guess it's close to the 60 qt Igloo Cube or the what was it 13 gallon pails (which they also make square and not all of them are tall rectangles). In other words they seemed to have put enough R&D (I use the term loosely) and experimentation into the Vortex products to arrive at their conclusion, so there's got to be something to the 3" PVC. I just don't have time to try it on my new 60qt Igloo Cube, and I don't have that size hole saw and mandrel (which I think is the easiest & most accurate way to make the proper hole). Yours is a 1000W fogger and that's what the Fusion is recommended for and it uses "20 lbs standard refrigerator type ice cubes for up to five hours of super-chilling of fog". however if you're using a trash can ,then you're imitating the Vortex Pro which is a trash can, but again I don't know how big the thing really is. It uses 4" dia PVC according to the online manual. Most people here seem to be using 2/3 ice successfully. BUT the Vortex products use 1/3 ice ratio, which is what I'm using with the small 400W Gemmy and 48 qt Igloo Cube. Using a PVC ice tray with harware mesh zipp tied to it is easy to experiment wiht the 1/3 or 2/3 height. You just cut shorter PVC legs. The ice level then varies BUT it seems to need a fog expansion area at the top of all the ice to make it work.


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## Hellspawn

So far, my 20 gallon Brute garbage can is working very well, I first built a chiller out of a 5 gal bucket for a neighbor of mine and stuck my 1000w fogger to it, the fogger was too powerfull for the bucket but still chilled very well, I was very suprised.

Im running a 1000w fitco (Party city) reverse vortex (through the 90degree side), ice rack 7'' off the bottom and 2'' pipe.

I would assume that by going with 3'' pipe, you are going to create slower moving fog and with a larger container you will have more room for ice to cool the fog, but keep in mind, others have had good results with less ice, so bigger isnt nescisarily better.

Im pondering whether the expansion area of the chiller is whats going to be the most important factor, but then again, thats just me thinking.


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## Hellspawn

Still cant edit, sorry....


The more im thinking about it, I think you should be the guinea pig here  and try the 3'' pipe and please post back with your results.


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## Smelly-Skelly

OK Gang

I will get my chiller out and do some testing and be the guinea pig. Here is what I have:

32 gallon brute trash can with 4" piping for inlet and outlet like the pro (just a little smaller). Built this last year to the vortex specs with lower expansion chamber and ice above. I used the pvc tray with the extrude metal (you know the stuff that everyone is talking about for strength)

I didn't use it for my haunt last year due to stronger than normal winds on Halloween, but I seem to recall testing in my garage and not being impressed. If memory serves me correctly, it seemed the larger sized pipes created too much flow and the fog came out before it had time to completely chill. I was using a Lite F/X 1200 watt fogger.

Here is my experiment:
1. Run in normal configuration; expansion chamber on the bottom 2/3 with ice 1/3 using the 4" piping all around.

2. Run in normal configuration; expansion chamber on the bottom 2/3 with ice 1/3 but using a plywood inserts (inlet and outlet) with a 2" hole to simulate 2 inch piping.

3.Run reverse configuration with 2/3 expansion chamber on top, fog through the 90 pipe with 1/3 ice layer and a smaller expansion chamber below the ice (about 4 inches as the ice tray will sit on top of the outlet pipe).

4. Run reverse configuration with 2/3 expansion chamber on top, fog through the 90 pipe with 1/3 ice layer and a smaller expansion chamber below the ice (about 4 inches as the ice tray will sit on top of the outlet pipe), but use plywood inserts with 2" hole (inlet and outlet) to simulate 2" piping all around.


Would this work and would everyone be interested in the results? It is going to be a pain after the first round of test to scoop out all the ice, replace tray legs with shorter ones and then dump the ice back in again. But hey what is a little sacrifice for the better good for all.

I will not be able to get the testing done until later tonight (in about 3+ hours) so post your ideas, changes, or how I might do this differently and I will check back before starting. Thanks.


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## stretchnuts

i thuoght fear was a sick pc game that scares the bejesus out of you


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## Daphne

Smelly-Skelly,

Since you don't know where I live where you could come by and smack me for adding additional work...

How about an additional test simulating 3" pipe?

Do you have to cover part of the hole with the plywood insert and run new PVC or will just making the input/output holes smaller accomplish the same thing?

Thanks for offering to be the guinea pig. I haven't even purchased anything yet so this is awesome.


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## Fright Zone

Yea! 

All the Vortex products are 1/3 ice chamber on top (but not filled to the top) and 2/3 fog expansion on the bottom. If I remember correctly I think everyone but myself ignores that fact because they had success with a 2/3 ice and 1/3 fog expansion ratio. I'd like to see the real Vortex set-up tested in yours as long as you're taking the initiative. 

For ice, I use a 1 cup and a 2 cup plastic Pet Food scoops found in the pet food section of Walmart or Meijer etc. That works great for scooping lots of ice back into the bags quickly. For that matter I'd test different thicknesses of ice walls liek I did. That's how I found less ice worked better for me, about 1-2" thick as opposed to 3-4" thick didn't produce as much fog.


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## Smelly-Skelly

OK I have checked replies and I am starting the testing. I have not done video before with the camera or uploading to something like photobucket so I hope it works.

I will do the test I listed before each with a 1 minute video run time to show output, stop change it for the next test, run it 1 minute etc. This will be done in my garage as it is too windy outside at the moment.

In addition to the test listed I will also do the reverse of expasion chamber to ice layer ratios (1/3 expansion to 2/3 ice). I will do my best to document all information so we can analyze the data. 

Here goes, results posted later tonight or tomorrow (I still need to find time to work on last minute props you know!!!)


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## Daphne

That is a concern I had. Once you get up to a certain size, we are talking about a LOT of ice. I would have never believed fog would have gone through 2" of ice but obviously it does since several of you have done it.

I'm anxious to see how Smelly Skelly's test goes. I am oscillating between the 60qt cube cooler or a garbage can as well as the pipe sizing. 

Fright Zone, is it possible there is that much difference in output between comparably sized foggers? I assumed that similar wattages produced similar amounts but perhaps not?

Thanks!


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## Fright Zone

@ Skelly - I had read your post worng. You have it set up like I have it bottom expansion is 2/3 with ice chamber at 1/3. But yeah it wouldn't be a bad idea as long as you'r eat it to do the exact opposite with 2/3 ice.

@ Daphne - I have two 400W Gemmy's. One is the regular size Walmart 2005 black model. The other is from this year 2006 and it's what they call the Mini silver model. It's noticeably smaller but still 400W. By themselves, the black regular sized one shoots the fog out a little farther and a but wider but not by much. My silver Mini Gemmy is not here right now to do an A/B test with a chiller. 

I was tempted to try a 700W fogger but will save my money for next year and maybe get a VEI 100W + fogger instead. That's where people start reporting major differences in high velocity higher volume fog output at 1000W compared to 400W or 700W. I think Brad Green has a 400W and 700W. Mr. A has a multiple wattages of foggers as well. That's rot fo a separate thread topic though unless like Brad people who have multiple foggers have tested them with different chillers.


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## halfcracked

Daphne,
My double homer chiller has the fog traveling through about 12"-16" of ice & probably traveling even further than that since it's swiriling it's way through.

so yeah fog can travel through a lot of ice provided it's cubed up. I'm happy with my results for this year atleast. but i'm lurking this thread just incase some one comes up with a killer chiller without resorting to 40 lbs of ice.

Oh & Brad Green,
I went looking for the plumbers goop & found plumbers epoxy puty instead 
The pipes are sealed & rock solid. I might get some more to apply to the inside of the outlet to smooth things out but this stuff works great. you just knead it a bit then roll out & smoosh into the joint. Five min. later I'd propably have to tear the bucket to get the pipe out.

Next is to get rid of the foil tape holding the buckets together. thein I'm thinking I'll use some great stuff to dress up the outlett pipe. I can use this as a pumpkin stand & hide it in plain sight.


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## Lunatic

*Quality fogger to be used with 60 qt cube*

Hi Folks,

After testing my 60 qt cube the other day I was still quite curious to see how a quality fogger will perform with the cube seeing that the FX700 doesn't meet my expectations as far as down time and noise. Vortex recommends the Martin Magnum so it got me thinking. I don't want to get too far off topic here and maybe it's the wrong thread for this info but I wanted to share a few things. I called Martin directly and also a Martin distributor and had a lengthy talk about foggers and fog juice.

I Talked to an experienced gentleman in the theater business and it appears that a quality fogger is more important than the fog juice itself. In fact the biggest difference between high quality and low quality liquid is the impurities which I have also read about. In fact, many people using quality foggers in bowling ally's and clubs use the cheaper liquid but filter it through a t-shirt or paint filter. The last thing I learned is the higher the viscosity the more low lying and lingering fog that is produced. It also takes longer to reheat as you go higher in viscosity and it's also more taxing on the motor and heat exchanger. Apparently, the Martin's can handle it but I'm likely going to just use the regular stuff and filter it.

I researched it and the reason why I ordered a Martin Magnum 800 (750 watt) is because it produces a dry dense fog which I believe will produce a quality chilled fog. I may be totally wrong and it's an expensive lesson to learn if it's no better than my cheapo's. I also like the fact that the Martin's are suppossed to be quieter with no snap, crackle and pop associated with my current foggers which can kind of ruin the effect. It also has a timer and output level adjustment along with continuous fogging which I probably won't use.

I'll post back my results when I get the fogger next week and test it. If anything, the unit will last years and longer than my cheaper units. Got to get back to prop building. It's getting closer to that haunting time and need to finish up other things. I'm happy enough with my chiller(s) at this point.


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## navdog

I was up till early in the morning reading through this thread. You guys are awesome in your quest for the lowest and densest fog!

I'm not a haunter, but a geocacher. Our group of several hundred folks have a yearly camp-out each year. We take over 50+ campsites each year and next year will be joining camping forces with the FrightFest Northwest folks and their convention. It should be a great time. There will be several events co-mingled with the two groups, and the FFNW folk seem eager to entertain us. They have one night where everyone dresses up for their costume ball. Our campsite theme next year will obviously be Halloween. I'm putting together a plan for a graveyard haunt at my site. It has electrical hookups, even 220V!, so a fogger and chiller will obviously be in the works. I'll be hitting the Halloween stores the day after Halloween for some good deals. Lots of great ideas here for props.

Back to the thread... It seems that the basic design being discussed is pretty much agreed upon. The question is really how cold can the temperature of the fog be lowered before it exits the chiller. This seems like a function of creating the largest surface space of ice within the cooler that the fog can contact. That's maybe why the separate refrigerate ice cubes as opposed to the store bought chunkier stuff seems to work better for those who have tried. The ice sounds like it melts and "blocks" together. I'm wondering if having several layers of trays in the cooler might be better. Basically creating an air space between each level as the fog moves up/down through the ice.

Obviously, higher wattage units will push the fog through the cooler faster, so more "ice contact" would be needed and this is where the larger size of the PVC tubing might help the fog to slow down a bit as it enters/exits the cooler.You are also introducing more ambient air into the mix this way.

I'm also wondering what function having two exit tubes might have and whether it may be a different effect than splitting the exit tube outside of the cooler and even affording the option of directing the fog into two separate directions.

Anyways, I'm really looking forward to playing around with some set-ups later this year and will be intently watching the forums for all the great stuff you guys come up with. Thanks for taking the time to experiment with the fog coolers and sharing all you experiences.


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## Long_Tom

Fright Zone said:


> I encourage somebody ANYBODY new or old to the proceedings after 35 pages to finally try the 3" diameter PVC since the Vortex Fusion uses it.


I used 3" ABS in my 5-gallon bucket chiller. It works outstanding with a LiteFX 1200 Constant fogger. You get a slow, rolling output that stays about 6" above the floor, with very little rising off. It spreads very nicely over smooth surfaces (like sidewalk or the floor of the garage) but tends to get bogged down in grass. I run it in the reverse direction, because that practically eliminates blowback of hot fog out of the inlet when the fogger is idling.

I also used 3" ABS in my 20-gallon-Brute chiller. It behaves nearly identically to the 5-gallon bucket chiller, even loaded up with twice the ice. The only advantage I can see is that a bigger ice load will need refilling less often (but might freeze up into a solid block, which is not desirable).

At this point, I'm sticking with the 5-gallon version and the Constant 1200 watt model. That works exactly the way I like, with no further tinkering necessary.

My LiteFX 700 Watt model behaves the same in both chillers: a lot of billowing, which I need to experiment more with to damp it down. I wonder if a better quality fogger would produce less violent bursts. My 1200 Constant is a higher wattage, but it produces more subdued jet velocity, as well as being able to run constantly. I'm tempted to go pick up another "1200 Constant" and be done.


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## Grave Digger

Fright Zone said:


> Yea!
> 
> That's how I found less ice worked better for me, about 1-2" thick as opposed to 3-4" thick didn't produce as much fog.


Fright Zone. I have a theory about the ice wall thickness/makeup and it's relationship to the spacing of the holes on the ice shelf. I haven't tested this theory yet, but maybe someone will jump in and comment. My theory is that a ice shelf with holes that are too small (like when using hardware fabric that has holes that are too small) will not allow the smallest pieces of ice to fall thru (to the bottom of the chiller) as they melt thus restricting the flow of fog thru the ice shelf.

These small pieces of ice when squeezed together (while still on the ice wall support shelf) might possibly restrict the flow of flog more so than a ice wall with larger (full size) ice cubes. In other words.... smaller melted ice cubes compact closer together (have fewer/smaller air channels between the cubes) and form a partial barrier that might possibly restrict the flow of fog.

So if a ice shelf design with holes that are too small might be at a disadvantage to the same chiller design with a ice shelf with larger sized holes (which allow the smallest ice cubes to fall thru).

Hey it's just a theory...

Food for thought?

Cheers,

Grave Digger
:xbones:


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## CountZero

Lunatic said:


> I Talked to an experienced gentleman in the theater business and it appears that a quality fogger is more important than the fog juice itself. In fact the biggest difference between high quality and low quality liquid is the impurities which I have also read about.


Not to disagree with an expert in the industry, but I've Observed a difference in output using different fluids in the same fogger and the same chiller. In my first round of chiller tests, I tried my normal fog fluid in my 1000W MBT fogger and ran it through a 60Q Vortex style Igloo. I then emptied the machine, and refilled it with a fog juice that is supposed to be formulated for use through a chiller. I DID notice a difference. A pretty significant one. To be fair, my normal choice of fluid is a higher end fluid that is designed to be dense and thick. The Chiller specific fluid form the same company had better density and seemed to last quite a bit longer.

In the interests of science, I've purchased a $14 WalMart 400W fogger. And I'm going to be testing it this weekend with the same 60Q chiller. I have 3 fluids that I'll test through it. The basic MBT fluid that came with my fogger. The denser "pro" fluid that I've been using for a while. And the "chiller" fluid that is formulated for use with a chiller. I expect decent output from my 1000W fogger. I figure that is an easy way to see if you can inprove output just by changing fluids. I expect a more efficient machine to perform better wtih higher quality fluid, so that was no surprise.

Also, since I'm going to have everything set up, I'm also going to test my 1700W fogger through the same 60Q chiller. (which based on the vortex site is too small for the output.) I know I can pump a 1000W fogger through the 60Q with good results. I'm curious to see if I can totally overwhelm the chiller with 1700W. I have a feeling that it will work fine. I think that the expension chamber and the ice is more important than the overall size of the chiller. (I'm also interested in the challenge of making the MOST dense ground hugging fog that I can with the smallest Chiller and the smallest quantity of ice.) For reference, my chiller uses 2" pipe, and so far its worked perfectly with a 1000W fogger.

I'll post my results and some photos after we test more this weekend.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Ok I ran several different cofigurations with my chiller, 7 total I think. I need a little help from everyone know. The video file size are large, 100mb+ per video and I have 8 total. What is the best way to upload these so everyone can view them? Can they be compressed? I have never done this before.

Here are the test:

Set up was in garage as it was windy outside. I used my life F/X 1200 watt fogger set to constant for the test. My top tube, one with the 90 degree bend is 2 inches from top of the can. Tubing is 4 inch diameter

Test #1
35 lbs ice (5 bags), 2/3 (16 inches) expansion chamber on the bottom of can, 1/3 (8 inches) ice layer on the top 1 inch from top of outlet tube. Regular flow for fog through 4 inch pvc pipes.

Test #2
35 lbs ice, 2/3 expansion chamber on the bottom of can, 1/3 ice layer on top 1 inch from top of outlet tube. Regular flow of fog, but plywood insert in pipes with 2 inch holes (keep in mind these are inserts only and not constant 2 inch diameter conversions).

Test #3
35 lbs ice, 2/3 expansion chamber on the top of can, 1/3 ice layer on bottom with smaller chamber at outlet area as ice tray sits on top of the outlet tube(4 inch smaller chamber at bottom). Reverse flow through the 90 bend pipe to top of can with 2 inch plywood inserts in both outlet and inlets.

Test #4
35 lbs ice, 2/3 expansion chamber on the top of can, 1/3 ice layer on bottom with smaller chamber at outlet area as ice tray sits on top of the outlet tube. Reverse flow through the 90 bend pipe to top of can using 4 inch pvc piping.

Test #5 
56 lbs ice, 1/3 expansion chamber on top of can (6 inches), 2/3 ice layer (18 inches) on bottom, with smaller expansion chamber at bottom of can as ice tray sits on the outlet tube. Reverse flow of fog through 90 bend pipe to top of can using 4 inch pvc pipe

Test #6
56 lbs ice, 1/3 expansion chamber of top of can, 2/3 ice layer on bottom, with smaller expansion chamber at bottom of can as ice tray sits on the outlet tube. Reverse flow of fog through 90 bend pipe to top of can using 2 inch plywood inserts in outlet/inlet pipes

Test #7
56 lbs ice, **no changes**, same as test 6 except the fogger was aligned into the regular flow configuration shooting through 2 inch plywood inserts into the bottom of the can, through ice layer to top and out 90 bend pipe.

OK I need to get some sleep, so I will edit/update in the morning and try to get the videos uploaded. Hope this helps.


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## Fright Zone

@ Skelly - Looking forward to it! Thanks for spelling it out so we can follow it easily. I use a MiniDV digital camcorder to record video then a firewire cable form the camcorder to my Mac to capture video in iMovie software which can export Quicktime video at mnay different resolutions inclusing Internet resolution small file sizes. But I bet you own a PC in which case my instructions do no good. youtube.com seems to work fine but I never bothered to look into it as far as how it works uploading video. The video is kind of crappy on that site but it's large and viewable. Quicktime by far is the best quality, but any video is better than no video. I haven't posted mine because I don't have the server space to begin with this year.

@ Grave Digger - I found the ice does fall through the hardware mesh. It makes a loud noise too LOL. The mesh is 1/2" square grid. The non-refrigerator ice cube tray el cheapo Walmart ice-in-a-bag sticks together right out of the bag which is scary. I drop it on the cement several times being careful not to puncture too many holes in the bag so I can re-use it. I does melt and some of it fuses together but a lot of it just turns to water and collects of course in the bottom of the cooler/chiller. I got my best results when I used more home made ice cubes BUT they were mixed in with the cheapo store bought ones. I plan on making enough by Halloween so I'll know then if it really did make a difference using home made ice. I think it will. I can use the 7lb bags I already bought for the trash can chiller (which makes LOUD noises when the ice melts and falls through the aluminum drier duct) I'm not sure I like that really. Strange noises on Halloween are one thing but when you know it's just ice melting inside a trash can filled with aluminum or ice hitting the bottom of a plastic cooler it gets on my nerves. Maybe I'll line my chillers with velvet or felt LOL


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## Grave Digger

Fright Zone said:


> @ Skelly - Looking forward to it! Thanks for spelling it out so we can follow it easily. I use a MiniDV digital camcorder to record video then a firewire cable form the camcorder to my Mac to capture video in iMovie software which can export Quicktime video at many different resolutions inclusing Internet resolution small file sizes. But I bet you own a PC in which case my instructions do no good. youtube.com seems to work fine but I never bothered to look into it as far as how it works uploading video. The video is kind of crappy on that site but it's large and viewable. Quicktime by far is the best quality, but any video is better than no video. I haven't posted mine because I don't have the server space to begin with this year.


@ Fright Zone - Good to see another OS X user (i.e. Mac user for those who are interested) online. Yes iMovie is a good soluntion not to mention free with all shipping Macs these days.

@ Skelly - YouTube.com has a 100 MB file limit (and 10 min video length for EACH video you upload). More info here http://www.youtube.com/t/help_makevideo

When you resize your videos to the recommended 320x240 resolution you'll also reduce the file size for each video and that will get you under the 100 MB file limit that youtube.com has.

If you're running Windows you'll need to use something like Windows MovieMaker to get your video onto your PC... or as Fright Zone mentioned if you're using a Mac iMove is the way to go.

Good luck,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


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## Daphne

Perhaps this is obvious to everyone but me but... If given the option to choose a 60qt cooler (which is short but long) versus a garbage can that is smaller (say 44ish) but taller, which is preferable with a 1000w fogger? I can't get my head around this. Seems like you'd need a smaller size with the increased height but maybe I am missing the boat here.

BTW, I took my shepherd out at 6AM this morning and you wouldn't believe the fog! It was amazing, I couldn't even see my neighbors. The first thought I had was that you definitely couldn't get this effect with any foggers I have ever seen and the chiller would be the size of my house! I waited to see if someone was going to run at me in a scary costume with a machete but my next door neighbor's daughter just walked out to get on the bus...

Smelly Skelly - I can't wait to see the video but tell us, tell us what was the best solution?


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## edwood saucer

Daphne,

My kid had flag football practice the other night and fog rolled in. After practice the kids ran down the field and slowly disappeared. My boy pops up after climbing the uprights and hanging from the middle. It straight up reminded me of Lost Boys hanging from the bridge. He let go and vanished again.

Yes - I would like to hear an opinion of your dilemma too.* Cooler vs. Can?*


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## airscapes

I did the 60qt CUBE cooler for a 1200watt AD Fogstorm fogger.
I would use the cooler. It holds about 30lbs of ice and the other 10lbs of a 40lb bag keeps a few days in another cooler. I have been running my fogger for the last 3 nights from Dark to 10PM. The ice needs to be brooken up and reditibuted about every hour. And the water needs to be drained every 2 hours or so. The ice keeps quite well till the following nignt, just add about 20lbs more and your are good to go. I think you would use a lot more ice if you use a trash can and plan to run the fogger more than 1 night.


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## heresjohnny

Smelly-Skelly said:


> Ok I ran several different cofigurations with my chiller, 7 total I think. I need a little help from everyone know. The video file size are large, 100mb+ per video and I have 8 total. What is the best way to upload these so everyone can view them? Can they be compressed? I have never done this before.


Skelly, if you do have a PC, Microsoft MovieMaker works very well, and it is also free. You can either import the video directly or capture it off a cam-corder that supports digital (I also have MiniDV). Once in MovieMaker you can edit for length, add sound, effects, all the basics. When you save you can specifiy resolution to meet the YouTube requirements. I used MovieMaker for all the videos on my site.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the results, it sounds someone finally captured all the diefferent ideas being discussed, Thanks!


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## Smelly-Skelly

*Vortex Chiller Video Test*

Here they are, let me know what you think. This is my first time editing and posting video. I created a playlist on YouTube so it is easy to find all the videos:






I will take some time today to re-review all my videos, but simple conclusion off the top of my head is the chiller seemed to work better in reverse flow (expansion chamber on top) and with a larger expansion chamber. When I used the plywood inserts to constrict the pipes, the flow rate was increased. It appeared the fog shot through the cooler too quickly to be chilled and condense into a thick layer.

I wish I had a pipe extension and used a plastic bag to slow the exit speed in the configurations but I didn't have any pipe. This might be something I can try later and take some videos, although time is running short.

I will post more conclusions as I review the videos, post your comments as well.


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## Lunatic

Hi Count Zero, I must not have been clear on my discussion about fog fluids, sorry about that. Yes, there is definitely a difference between them in prodcuing different fog types and that is what they are designed to do. What I was trying to say is that there are standard fluids available from different sources and different qualities that range in price. Some people by the cheaper stuff and just filter out the impurities, which is what makes a standard fluid low quality. Not to say that it's recommended to buy a gallon for 10 bucks! I wouldn't trust that stuff. I want to use the higher viscosity stuff but I can't find it locally and ordering by internet is costly. I have found that typically many suppliers force you to buy a case which can cost $200 or more not to mention expensive regulations in shipment. That is why I'm likely going to just go with the regular stuff unless I find the denser fluid locally. Thanks for the reply. I'm not always clear and accurate but I try.


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## Fright Zone

@ Lunatic & Count - Both you guys made good points about fog juice in relation to a chiller ; ) I'll have to note those comments when I step up to a quality fogger next year.


@ Skelly - Good video! Well done. It worked out well. Well organized. Good text and audio explanations. Thanx for taking the time to do it. (My Mom talked over one of my tests, like it sounded your kid did to yours LOL). I need to go back and look at them closely again also before I post any comments.

Easy questions first: Where do you get black PVC, The Vortex uses it too or did you paint it? (I'm glad you tried the 4" PVC btw)

Did you used store bought bags of ice? Some haunters stock up on refrigerator cubes daily and others have acces to ice makers, and we think the cheap store bought ice isn't as good or it fuses together and is thicker in that regard than the home made, or quality ice (I never thought I'd be saying 'quality ice' LOL) is why I didn't want to assume.

Next test would be to take your favorite set up and see what it does outside.


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## heresjohnny

Smelly-Skelly said:


> Here they are, let me know what you think. This is my first time editing and posting video. I created a playlist on YouTube so it is easy to find all the videos:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=38846800DB77C7B3
> 
> I will take some time today to re-review all my videos, but simple conclusion off the top of my head is the chiller seemed to work better in reverse flow (expansion chamber on top) and with a larger expansion chamber. When I used the plywood inserts to constrict the pipes, the flow rate was increased.  It appeared the fog shot through the cooler too quickly to be chilled and condense into a thick layer.
> 
> I wish I had a pipe extension and used a plastic bag to slow the exit speed in the configurations but I didn't have any pipe. This might be something I can try later and take some videos, although time is running short.
> 
> I will post more conclusions as I review the videos, post your comments as well.


Awesome! The expansion chamber on top is the design I am going with also based on findings back around page 12 of this thread, this provides additional validation. Thanks so much for the videos (I know how much it is to set up different test and to document).

I have a simple theory on the expansion chamber size. I have been playing around with using frozen water bottles in vinyl carpet tubes (same outside diameter as 4" PVC), and at one point tryed a larger bottle thinking it would provide more surface area to chill the fog. To the contrary the performance was worse than with smaller bottles, and I also noticed it took less time for the fog to travel the length of the tube. My conclusion was that increasing the ice (bottle) size increased the surface area of the ice but also decreased the volume the fog had to travel through, result is the fog had less time against the ice. The same may hold true for the smaller ice layer in your experiment.

Thanks again for all your work making the comparison videos.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Fright Zone;81341Easy questions first: Where do you get black PVC said:


> yeah my son walking into the garage during one of the test and I didn't want to "shooosh" him as it would be on the audio. Oh well!
> 
> I purchased the black pvc from the local Home Depot. I think they have white as well, but I don't recall if they have white in 4 inch or not.
> 
> Ice was purchased from WalMart in 7 lbs bags (bought 10 bags). I dropped each back on the concrete 4 times to break up chuncks, but you are correct it still seems to clump together a little. Between sets up when I had to scoop out all the ice, it was not one large chunck or anything like that, but maybe 3-8 pieces together that were easy to break apart again.
> 
> Fog juice was cheap stuff I had laying around. I think it was purchased at party city. Would be interesting to try some of better quality.
> 
> One test I did not run and wish I had was inlet with 4 inch and outlet with 2 inch insert in normal flow configuration, then 2" inlet with 4" outlet in normal flow configuration, then switched it around so the flow was reversed and did the 2/4 thing. I might have been able to slow the flow down some to it chilled longer, but I am unsure what set up would work best for this.


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## Lunatic

FZ & Skelly,
I found the black pvc to be non existent in the Boston area. I looked around and called many places and it appears that it just isn't popular here. One Home Depot said that other HD stores may supply it but I didn't find it myself.


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## airscapes

Lunatic said:


> FZ & Skelly,
> I found the black pvc to be non existent in the Boston area. I looked around and called many places and it appears that it just isn't popular here. One Home Depot said that other HD stores may supply it but I didn't find it myself.


Um.. if it is black it is abs plastic or PVC painted black. ABS is hard to find in my area to. If there is a woodworking store near you, they sell it for the dust collection pipeing in wood shops, so you can find it with the dust collection systems.


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## Long_Tom

Fright Zone said:


> ...The non-refrigerator ice cube tray el cheapo Walmart ice-in-a-bag sticks together right out of the bag which is scary.....


Yeah, I noticed the ice from the store doesn't seem to be frozen very hard to begin with. (Maybe they want your ice to melt quickly, so you'll buy more?) When you add in the wait in the checkout line and the trip home, there goes a bunch of your cold. Bringing them home in a cooler instead of just in the car trunk helps a little, but not much. For Halloween, I intend to get my bags of ice several hours ahead of time, and stick them in my freezer to get them good and frozen again.


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## CountZero

Lunatic said:


> Hi Count Zero, I must not have been clear on my discussion about fog fluids. Yes, there is definitely a difference between them in prodcuing different fog types and that is what they are designed to do. What I was trying to say is that there are standard fluids of different qualities that range in price and that some people by the cheaper stuff and just filter it. Not to say that it's recommended to by a gallon for 10 bucks! I wouldn't trust that stuff. I want to use the higher viscosity stuff but I can't find it locally and ordering by internet is costly. I have found that typically many suppliers force you to buy a case which can cost $200 or more not to mention expensive regulations in shipment. That is why I'm likely going to just go with the regular stuff unless I find the denser fluid locally. Thanks for the reply. I'm not always clear and accurate but I try.


Not a problem.  For reference, I've had really good luck with the "froggy's fog" brand of Fog juice. Its not available locally for me, but I've been getting it off of Ebay. Cases are reasonable, and even with shipping its been less than $100 for teh most expensive stuff they have. (I'm in Arizona. so if you are closer to TN where they are based, shipping should be less than I have to pay.)

I was using the Froggy's "Swamp Juice" which they have listed an an super dense fluid. Which I was totally happy with. I was thrilled with it right up until I tried their new "Freezin Fog" chiller formula.  I would say you can't really go wrong with either one of them. The Freezin formula is a little more expensive, and seems to work better through a chiller. But they BOTH work really well through a chiller. The Freezin formula just seems to cling lower and last a little longer. (And I'll be testing both formulas in a cheap Walmart fogger this weekend, so I should have more info by monday as to the output on a entry level machine.

They have a website, as well as a store on Ebay. Ebay usually ends up a little cheaper for some reason. A case of "Swamp juice" on Ebay is $49.99 with shipping at $24.94 to AZ. Which I've found is really reasonable for what I'm getting. I like it alot.  They sell it in gallons and in cases. So if you cant find any locally, it might now be bad to give them a shot. (And I have no ties to the company. I just REALLY like their juice.)


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## Lunatic

Airscapes, Yeah your right, I was looking for black ABS and not pvc.


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## Lunatic

Count Zero, thanks for the info. I will look into getting some of Froggy's Freezin Fog liquid. I still want to create the lowest lying fog and using a fluid that is designed to would be best. Is the Freezin Fog fluid thick in viscosity compared to the regular stuff?


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## Smelly-Skelly

I just did a side by side comparison of the Test #1 and Test #4 videos (both use 4" pipe, test 1 normal vortex flow, test 4 is reversed).

I sized the windows so I could watch both at the same time and I noticed a couple of things. In test #1 the fog velocity out of the "outlet" seems greater as it travels slightly farther before dropping to the ground. Output is good and the garage floor is covered in less than a minute.

In Test 4 again good coverage in 1 minute but the velocity seems slower out the "oulet" and it appears the fog drops more quickly to the ground. Not sure if this is product of slower velocity or colder fog

I did another comparison of Test 4 and Test 5, only difference being test 5 had a 1/3 expansion and 2/3 ice layer, both with 4" pipe in the "reverse" flow configuration. I did not see a big difference in these test with maybe a slight advantage in test 4 on output, maybe due to a large expansion allowing fog to finish the expansion process before being chilled.

I did not like the results of the 2" insert but I am unsure if full 2" pipe would produce better results or not. I think my next step if building a new chiller using a 32 gallon trash can with 3" piping through out. I think the combination of larger piping to slow fog velocity for longer chilling time with 2/3 expansion chamber in the reverse flow configuration might be the ticket.


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## Daphne

Here is a thought... It seems like the ice melting/clumping issue would be different with a cooler (insulated) vs. a can (not insulated). It is going to melt faster in a can but I am not sure if that is better or worse. You could potentially use separators inside (i.e. a shelf, layer of ice, piece of eggcrate, ice, eggcrate...) but then the ice is going to melt even faster I'd think. It might improve the clumping issue but who knows.

Smelly Skelly's test seemed to indicate less is more with regards to ice quantity (better results with 35 vs. 56) so the less you have, the faster it melts. Of course you could slow the internal melting by putting pipe wrap around the vertical.

It also seems he had much better results with the 4" pipe versus smaller input/output ports. If it was that dramatic with just the 2 holes smaller, I suspect that using actual 2" piping would be much worse. I am still curious if that magic size is 4" or 3" but apparently with the larger fogger, it isn't 2". 

Thanks for doing all the R&D for us, this has been incredibly informative.


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## Fright Zone

@ airscapes - Thanx for the ABS info

@ Daphne - The only thing that would concern me about using egg crate (plastic grid used for fluorescent lighting) around ice or for an ice tray is that I'd think the cold ice would make it more brittle and it would break much easier than hardware mesh or metal.

@ Skelly - I watched your youtube.com tests again with the 32 gallon brute trash can and 4" ABS pipes imitating the Vortex Pro with the 1200W fogger. 

A) I think they all work but I like the results from #4, #5 and #1. It depends on the effect you'd be after. #5 pumps it out more and it rises a little. #1 is kind of slow and turbulent but lays low and coverage is wide. #4 is the happy medium I think. 

B) I think it proves there's a reason the Vortex products use different diameter pipes (Mini @ 2", Fusion @ 3" and Pro @ 4")

C) I think that also proves it would be a good test if someone could use 3" PVC or ABS with the 60qt Igloo ICe Cube or a large plastic pail.

D) If so, I'd follow the Vortex recommendations for amount of ice, 1/3 ice & 2/3 expansion, and the 700-1000+ higher wattage of fogger, BUT probably with the reverse outlet that works well for most haunters here.

E) Yes, it would be nice to see a 30-32 gallon Hefty trash (or lawn & leaf) bag on the outlet to see how much it slows it down and spreads the fog with your setup (it does with my little 400W Gemmy to the 48 qt Igloo Ice cube cooler using 2" PVC and 1/3 ice & 2/3 lower fog expansion outlet area - I'm repeating myself just so we keep everyone's set-up straight under so many pages of reference)

F) If you can, also do those tests OUTSIDE for #4, #5 and #1 with and without the trash bag on the outlet. I think any of these work indoors because of no wind and controlled atmosphere with warmer air. The true test it outdoors like gmacted and airscapes showed with their chillers (whether someone will use it indoors or not there's a lot of people who'll use the chillers outdoors on Halloween for graveyard fog).

I'll also eventually try to get video up on youtube.com with my smaller set-up. I'm not sure if I can do it before Halloween.


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## Daphne

Frightzone, good point on the eggcrate, hardware mesh or metal sounds like a better option.


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## Grave Digger

Lunatic said:


> I have found that typically many suppliers force you to buy a case (of fog juice) which can cost $200 or more not to mention expensive regulations in shipment.


Living in a small town I couldn't find any quality fog juice (except what they sell at Walmart (aka Wally World)) so I looked on the Internet like everyone else. What I also discovered were good prices on the fog juice, but the shipping kills the deal.

Well I am happy to report that I found a good deal on a case of quality fog juice (Martin Regular DJ Fluid). Midwest Stereo sells a case of 4 gallons (buy three get one free) for $121 (shipping included).

http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fluids/MARFOGFOUR/

$121.00..........Buy 3 Gallons get one free
$0.00..........UPS Ground included
----------
$121.00

Price per Gallon (with shipping included) $30.25

Although it appears you can purchase it cheaper by getting it in the one gallon containers ($26.99) instead of by the case... shipping is additional when purchase in individual containers. The end result is the price per gallon is more.

$26.99............One Gallon Fog Juice
$16.12............UPS Ground to NC (Note your shipping charges may vary)
----------
$43.11

Price per Gallon (with shipping included to NC) $43.11

http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fluids/MARFOGJUICEG/

Side note:
I ordered one case of 4 gallons last week. The case was scheduled to be delivered by UPS today, but UPS dropped it while unloading the truck at the depot, and the case was damaged. Midwest notified me today about the problem and took care of all the details. They have another case going out today. The fog machine (Martin Magnum Pro 2000) I ordered at the same time as the fog juice did come in today. Although the box was in sad shape the fogger looks to be in pristine condition. When I get my fog chiller (44 gallon Vortex Pro design) built and the juice is delivered I'll post the results.

Cheers,

Grave Digger
:xbones:


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## Fright Zone

@ Gravedigger - Thanx for the 411 on the fog juice.

@ Skelly - Since Daphne brought up the ice tray, I forgot, what are you using for an ice tray, the hardware mesh or metal grid?


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## Brad Green

Can't seem to get away from this thread! First, excellent videos SmellySkelly. In answer to Daphne's concerns as to a 2" pipe being ineffecient, the use of an insert with a 2" hole on a 4" pipe works in the same way a restrictor plate works on a race engine. You end up with a tremendous amount of reversion and turbulance at the exit (won't really affect the entrance, as it will simply expand once past the hole). The fog is traveling towards the exit with at least some velocity in a 4" diameter column when it encounters a 1" flat wall directly in it's path along the outer edge of the pipe. It will then collide with that area and roll back on itself rather than compress and exit. If a bell type reducer had been used, something with a more gradual decrease to the 2" size, there would have been different results than those witnessed on the tape. I am not trying to disparage Skelly's results, but I have a bit of experience with NHRA required restrictor plates, and they work exactly the same way on a flow-bench. I use 2" pipes on all of the chillers I have built and pretty much match output with Skelly's tests, the only real difference I noticed was that Skelly's does stay down longer, but the larger pipe doesn't seem to project as far, I can only assume velocity is lost due to pipe size being twice what I use. Again Skelly, very nice chiller! (wish I could do video). As to Daphne's second question, yes the ice melts faster in a non-insulated chiller. I have a 60qt. Igloo and 2 10gal. bucket models, both hold about the same amount of ice, an it turns into a rain storm inside the buckets (of course I am in Florida testing in 80-90 degree weather).


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## Fright Zone

That's a good analogy. i didn't' think the inlet would be affected much by plywood with a 2" dia hole, but definitely the outlet was. I use a 3" dia to 2" dia PVC reducer on the outlet of my 4" dia (by 16 ft) aluminum drier ductwork on the Ghosts of Halloween trash can-style chiller version (not to be confused with the Vortex Pro or Skeely's videos) I'll use that in addition to the Igloo Ice Cube Vortex-style chiller. The 3x2 reducer shoots the fog out farther is all it does. I just think it's a cool effect that's all.

I'm glad you reported the difference in ice melting between insulated and non insulated. We had wondered a few pages back wether that would be the case or if the hot fog would stay hot and melt the cold ice in the insulated chiller, since the Vortex official products aren't insulated but claim the ice lasts a long time.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Fright Zone - The tray is the metal grid like that found on the Vortex Pro and as diagramed on the owners page found earlier in this thread. I wasn't able to find a piece large enough last year at HD (they were sold out) so I had to use two pieces and over lap them.

Brad Green - You are correct, I was thinking the same thing when filming, the plywood inserts are not the same as a full 2" pipe. I guess someone would have to build one using 2" pipe that could be taken apart, the holes enlarged and then use 3". I was actually thinking about doing this as I am curious to see how a 32 gallon can do with 2" vs. 3" piping and what is better. Would the 2" be too restrive and not allow enough air flow with the fog? I almost bought the parts today at lunch, but then again I just know it is going to be windy on H-night and all would be for not!

For everyone else - as to ice melting, last year I had this cooler set up and ready to use, but it was too windy so I moved it to our front porch. Well I quickly realized that front steps covered in low lying fog with TOTs in costume and limited visibilty = lawsuit waiting to happen. I turned it off but by the next morning I would say at least 1/2 of the ice was still ready to go. I had about 60 lbs to start last year.

On a side note, I really like the idea of experimenting with this and the idea of low fog to set the scene for my cemetary, but I have to face reality and ask is it worth it. Just a little wind and all the hard work it out the window.

I do have 2 Lite f/x Commander 1200 watt units being delivered on Monday, I guess I didn't really look reality in the face close enough, sigh!


----------



## Lunatic

Grave Digger, Thanks for the info on a cheaper source of fog fluid. Good to know! Also, since I am waiting to receive my Martin Magnum 800 I am very interested to see how the 2000 Pro works for you. Nice machine! The gentleman that I talked to when I bought mine said he uses a few of the 2000 Pro's and works excellent in his haunted house. He is a dealer that sells them and he has never had a unit returned because it broke down. In fact the only one ever returned was damaged during shipment. Good luck!


----------



## gmacted

Grave Digger said:


> Living in a small town I couldn't find any quality fog juice (except what they sell at Walmart (aka Wally World)) so I looked on the Internet like everyone else. What I also discovered were good prices on the fog juice, but the shipping kills the deal.
> 
> Well I am happy to report that I found a good deal on a case of quality fog juice (Martin Regular DJ Fluid). Midwest Stereo sells a case of 4 gallons (buy three get one free) for $121 (shipping included).
> 
> http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fluids/MARFOGFOUR/
> 
> $121.00..........Buy 3 Gallons get one free
> $0.00..........UPS Ground included
> ----------
> $121.00
> 
> Price per Gallon (with shipping included) $30.25
> 
> Although it appears you can purchase it cheaper by getting it in the one gallon containers ($26.99) instead of by the case... shipping is additional when purchase in individual containers. The end result is the price per gallon is more.
> 
> $26.99............One Gallon Fog Juice
> $16.12............UPS Ground to NC (Note your shipping charges may vary)
> ----------
> $43.11
> 
> Price per Gallon (with shipping included to NC) $43.11
> 
> http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fluids/MARFOGJUICEG/
> 
> Side note:
> I ordered one case of 4 gallons last week. The case was scheduled to be delivered by UPS today, but UPS dropped it while unloading the truck at the depot, and the case was damaged. Midwest notified me today about the problem and took care of all the details. They have another case going out today. The fog machine (Martin Magnum Pro 2000) I ordered at the same time as the fog juice did come in today. Although the box was in sad shape the fogger looks to be in pristine condition. When I get my fog chiller (44 gallon Vortex Pro design) built and the juice is delivered I'll post the results.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Grave Digger
> :xbones:


You may want to check Coolstuffcheap.com for fog juice. They have some very good prices. I've bought VEI fog juice from them in the past. Right now you can get a case (4 gallons) of Chauvet fog juice for $57. They would charge me ~$25 to ship it. That would work out to be ~$82 which would be ~$20 per gallon.


----------



## Grave Digger

gmacted said:


> You may want to check Coolstuffcheap.com for fog juice. They have some very good prices. I've bought VEI fog juice from them in the past. Right now you can get a case (4 gallons) of Chauvet fog juice for $57. They would charge me ~$25 to ship it. That would work out to be ~$82 which would be ~$20 per gallon.


Thanks for the heads up.

I'll bookmark their site.

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## Grave Digger

*Death Lord Fog Chiller Designs from 1997*

For those who are interested here are some early Death Lord fog chillers that predate the Vortex Pro design.

http://wolfstone.halloweenhost.com/HalloweenTech/fogchl_FogChiller69.html#DeathLordIceVac

Enjoy,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


----------



## Daphne

I finally found a 60qt cube cooler at Super Target today. Bass Pro Shops have them also but for an additional $20. It got kind of exciting when I determined a half hour from my house in the parking lot that it would NOT fit in my trunk!

I need to go to Home Depot to get PVC but got to thinking. I will go with 2 inch as per Brad's recommendation unless someone does a 3 inch test before tomorrow afternoon that works better. What I needed to clarify though was size. The sizes we are discussing are ID diameter not OD correct? I will likely need a hole saw as well and wanted to only make one more trip (yeah right).


----------



## Fright Zone

Yes 2" or 3" ID. The 2" hole saw is 2-3/8" to cut the OD plus the mandrel needed to attach the hole saw to the drill. Once again PVC Schedule 40 & 80 pipe sizes http://www.pvcplus.com/PVC schedule_40_&_80_pipe.htm


----------



## Brad Green

Pipe sizes are always measured by OD, inner diameters vary by pipe thickness (sched.40, 80, etc.). As far as a hole saw goes, if Home Depot has an adjustable size hole saw that's the way you want to go. I have one, it has 3 long cutting teeth and you loosen the center nut to increase or decrease the hole size you need. Alot better than having a pricey hole saw that's only good for a one-shot project.


----------



## Fright Zone

That's what I meant. I'm rushing to get out of there LOL. In fact my graveyard fence spindles are all 1/2 dia PVC EXCEPT Lowes in their infinite wisdom put some drinking water pipe which is 1/2 in but thicker and takes longer to cut through. Same price thankfully butI didn't notice it 'til I tried to cut it at home dooh! And CPVC that's 1/2 inch looks noticeably smaller & thicker than schedule 40 even though they both sell at 1/2". I used that for PVC prop fingers. I'll have to look for that adjustable hole saw. My Dad has an adjustable one for wood. Go to go. Have a nice weekend of experimenting everyone!


----------



## Grave Digger

*Drain Hole Size?*

I want to add a drain hole with a male fitting to attach to a garden hose to my Vortex Pro size chiller (as featured on the Vortex Fusion shown in the Vortex User's Manual -- see attached picture below).

Does anyone know:

A - the size fitting I'll need to attach to the garden hose's coupling?

B - the size hole saw I'll need to cut the hole?

TIA,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


----------



## tcarter

WOW! this thread has gone whacko long. some serious stuff. I wish I could read through all of it, but I have dial-up...argh and it's dreadful. don't ask about it. Anyway I spent a little over an hour and only got to page 10 or so out of 40... and I only get 10 min breaks at work, where I have high speed so have been hesitant to delve into it. any way, I get the basic idea of this, and hadn't planned on making a chiller, but all my planned projects are completed and I'm still itching to do something else, and my gotfog.com version I built 4 years ago just isn't cutting it. anyway, I'm sorry if maybe this is a repeat since I only got 1/4th of the way through the thread, but as far as smaller designs got, i.e, buckets, has anyone ever thought of using one of these job site type 5 gal. water coolers?

I have one of this exact model out in the garage, and I just went out there and saw it and thought, hey wait a minute... 
My thinking on this is that it's taller than a bucket so, the 1/3. 1/3 blah, blah blah, ratio would be better suited to a taller design, and it has a screw on lid that would ensure a tight seal to prevent seepage. It was given to me by an uncle and has been used to store cat food, and it;'s nasty filthy dirty Well the cat can keep it's food in a bag, screw it, and I aon't going to drink anything coming out of that disgusting thing. They are around 25 bucks or so to buy, but I got one for nothing. Is the spigot going to cause an issue? I don't think it would, and it would be a convenient way to get rid of melted ice runoff. Any opinions on this?


----------



## edwood saucer

tcarter - I understand - I wish someone would post a how to that is the consensus best of breed.

hint hint...

: ^)


----------



## Grave Digger

tcarter said:


> WOW! this thread has gone whacko long. some serious stuff. I wish I could read through all of it, but I have dial-up...argh and it's dreadful. don't ask about it. Anyway I spent a little over an hour and only got to page 10 or so out of 40... and I only get 10 min breaks at work, where I have high speed so have been hesitant to delve into it.


I have a suggestion if you really want to read it all even if you're on dialup. Download a application like "*Web Dumper*" (versions for Windows and Macintosh OS X) and let it go out and capture/dump the web site on your computer. Your computer will do this as fast as your connection will allow. Then you can read your favorite thread as fast as you can scroll offline. Better yet run Web Dumper at work (where you have broadband Internet access) then transfer the data to a CD/DVD to bring home and read. Web Dumper can do all this in the background while you're at work.

This software is shareware ($20).. but if you search around you might also find a freeware soluntion... http://www.versiontracker.com/windows/

History Lesson:
I used to use a program called Compuserve Navigator (same basic concept) back in the late 1980s to 1990s to access a online service called CompuServe.

http://home.pacific.net.hk/~johnb/mc_nav.html

CompuServe charged by the hour ($16.95) to access their online site (not including long distance charges) so I would instruct Compuserve Navigator to connect to the service, collect the 300 or so unread messages on my favorite message boards and disconnect. This took like 5 to 10 min. I could then read all the messages offline at no additional charge.

Take a look at Web Dumper.

Cheers,

Grave Digger

:xbones:


----------



## tcarter

Actually, I DON'T want to read all of that. I'd like a summary or something more concise.


----------



## Brad Green

Page 24 of this thread has a description of both mine and FrightZone's basic setups. In brief, most of us have used 2" pipe and that has worked out pretty well. Ice tray height is still in debate, some like 2/3 lower expansion, 1/3 upper ice, myself, I went with the opposite and got great results. To shorten everything - 2" pipe IN going to a 90 attached to a section of 2" that extends to 1-2" from the bottom side of your lid - ice tray, either 1/3 or 2/3 of the way down (your choice - both seem to work, depends who you ask) - 2" exit pipe that is perpendicular to the entrance pipe. Make the holes for the entrance/exit pipes about 4" (centered) from the outside bottom of your cooler/bucket/trashcan should put you about right. Fogger fires into the pipe with the 90 up through the ice layer, incoming hot air forces the cooler charge down and out. Keep the fogger nozzle about 2 1/2-3" back from the intake port for air expansion. Experimentors here have used pipe extensions, bags, T's and 90's in various combinations on the exhaust port to reduce the billowing of the out going fog so that it won't mix with the outside air as quickly and disperse. That's about as close as I can come to an abridged version of the Vortex.


----------



## tcarter

thanks Brad, that helps.


----------



## edwood saucer

I agree - thanks Brad. While I'm not on dialup - I just don't have the time to read it all.

I'm working today while Mom is at wally world with the 10 year old trying to turn him into Peter Criss!

Gotta love rock-n-roll...


----------



## itsalive

*Chiller help...*



Smelly-Skelly said:


> I just did a side by side comparison of the Test #1 and Test #4 videos (both use 4" pipe, test 1 normal vortex flow, test 4 is reversed).
> 
> I sized the windows so I could watch both at the same time and I noticed a couple of things. In test #1 the fog velocity out of the "outlet" seems greater as it travels slightly farther before dropping to the ground. Output is good and the garage floor is covered in less than a minute.
> 
> In Test 4 again good coverage in 1 minute but the velocity seems slower out the "oulet" and it appears the fog drops more quickly to the ground. Not sure if this is product of slower velocity or colder fog
> 
> I did another comparison of Test 4 and Test 5, only difference being test 5 had a 1/3 expansion and 2/3 ice layer, both with 4" pipe in the "reverse" flow configuration. I did not see a big difference in these test with maybe a slight advantage in test 4 on output, maybe due to a large expansion allowing fog to finish the expansion process before being chilled.
> 
> I did not like the results of the 2" insert but I am unsure if full 2" pipe would produce better results or not. I think my next step if building a new chiller using a 32 gallon trash can with 3" piping through out. I think the combination of larger piping to slow fog velocity for longer chilling time with 2/3 expansion chamber in the reverse flow configuration might be the ticket.


Skelly...
Thank you very much for your R&D in this forum. It's been extremely helpful. I just finished a chiller based on the exact specs you used in test #1 using the 32 gallon vortex approach. I perfomed my first test-run last night, outside. Unforunately, my fog did not come out low and rolling. My results yielded more of a waist-high smoke screen. I'm sure the wind did not help. I'm using a VEI V-950 fogger set on 10 second long burst, with 15 second intervals (even tried reversing the intake). Any ideas about what I could be doing wrong? Is the V-950 too much output for the 32 gallon chiiler? Any suggestions/feedback would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Brad Green

Itsalive, on pages 20 & 21, The Count describes his method of using a bag on the outlet extension, on page 24, I have my variation using a 'T' and 2 45's to keep the fog low to the ground. It sounds to me as if you are having a problem with the fog mixing with the outside air to quickly (we ran into this with a high-output fogger on my little 10gal. bucket model), both the bag and the 45's direct the fog to the ground where it spreads rather than billow up. Might be worth a try.


----------



## airscapes

Itsalive.. you said the four letter work.. "wind".. .. Nothing will make fog stay on the ground with wind or breeze..


----------



## brokenlaser

I read all of this thread before building my vortex style chiller. I have built the got fog version before I even knew about this one. With out even knowing about this design I did this to improve the unit.
http://terrorsyndicate.com/methodz/viewtopic.php?t=285
Then I built one from various things I read and just common sence of cold falls heat rises. I have no pics of it, but it works, better than the got fog unit. Now I have built one of the vortex from this thread. It blows doors on the others by a large margin. I have no video as it has been really windy since building it but it rocks. It's a 48q and I am running it as inlet to the 90 deg up. I am using about 1 1/2" from the top with Ice filled to approximately 1" from the end of the tube. Lower chamber is aout 4" high. It shoots the fog out, and if the wind doesn't grab it it is cooler than 41 deg outside temp. I shot the fog exiting the chiller with a high end laser temp gun and the fog was coming out at 33 deg from a lite f/x 700w fogger set to fire every 30sec. for 10 seconds. The temp shots were taken on all shots for the duration, and variance was less than a degree.
Many thanks to all of you guys that spent the time to work on this chiller and post the information. I'll take temps this weekend from all three designs and see what we come up with as a total. The key I see is the temperture the fog leaves the chiller. Also with this design The bag on the outlet rocks.


----------



## Fright Zone

That's cool. Another success story. And someone who had the patience to read about it LOL. I guess ultimately we have to thank the inventors of the Vortex product, of which if we weren't avid DIY Haunters, we would just buy one LOL. 

I'd also like to see a temperature reading of the fog out of the fogger nozzle for comparison sake as long as you have the equipment. Might also be interesting to open the lid and take a temperature reading of the ice on the tray for that matter.


----------



## itsalive

Brad Green said:


> Itsalive, on pages 20 & 21, The Count describes his method of using a bag on the outlet extension, on page 24, I have my variation using a 'T' and 2 45's to keep the fog low to the ground. It sounds to me as if you are having a problem with the fog mixing with the outside air to quickly (we ran into this with a high-output fogger on my little 10gal. bucket model), both the bag and the 45's direct the fog to the ground where it spreads rather than billow up. Might be worth a try.


Brad...
Thanks for the suggestions. I did incorporate a 4' (4" pipe) extension with a "Y", not a "T" cap, in my initial tests. I'm going to try the trash bag, some experimentation with reducing the outlet... and even trying a reducer at the top of the 90 degree pipe. I'll let everyone know how this plays out. Thanks again. BTW...the wind that I mentioned in my initial email, was minimal...I'm sure it was a factor...but it was not the "trump card" in the poor results I received.
...Good haunting!...


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

Anyone have any new set ups or results to post? Has anyone used the 3" piping yet?


----------



## DeadwoodManor

*Another Fog Chilling Option*

I've tried the coolers and they worked but I tried this design and it works really well also. I have two of these built and they work great..

http://www.geocities.com/liemavick/Fogchiller.html


----------



## tcarter

Smelly-Skelly said:


> Anyone have any new set ups or results to post? Has anyone used the 3" piping yet?


I have 2 700W Gemmy foggers so I decided to make 2 chillers, but experiment with 2 different designs.

I made one out of a storage tote with 3" pipe. The volume of fog coming out was great, I can't really attest to the cooling difference, but I like it. I need to get more ice to completely fill up the space, my intital test was only about half filled.

I also made a smaller one out of another storage container that looks like a clear trash can, it's like 14 qt or something, anyway, I used 2" on this one by the way due to size issues, for the outlet pipe, I used a 90 elbow with a piece of screen material rubberbanded around the inside to keep ice from entering, but I did not use an ice shelf, just filled the sucker up with ice. I was impressed with the performance. I'm thinking about omitting the shelf on the tote design as well to see what happens

I was going cheap here, I bought the 2" pipe and elbows, and both containers for less that $25 . I already had the 3" pipe and the wire mesh and small PVC to buiilt the ice shelf on the larger one left from other projects.

I still need to tinker with the larger one and get more ice, but I think I'm calling the small one done. they both performed well, though I thought.


----------



## incubus0

Smelly-Skelly said:


> Anyone have any new set ups or results to post? Has anyone used the 3" piping yet?


Just finished the ice tray on mine late last night, and it has 3'' piping, mostly because it started life as the gotfog.com model, and is now the vortex-type.

I'll be testing it out late tonight, and will get some pics up afterwards.


----------



## Lunatic

Smelly-Skelly said:


> Anyone have any new set ups or results to post? Has anyone used the 3" piping yet?


Hi Smelly Skelly,

I thought this thread was stagnant. I've been waiting for a new fogger to come and it will arrive today so I can do some more testing. There's little time left to do testing but I will try. I too am still interested in the 2" vs. 3" comparison in the same size cooler(60 qt cube). I still haven't cut my second cooler yet and haven't for that reason. I may try it but I also may not need it. It suppossed to rain all day Saturday with high winds. It looks like all of my props will be inside that night for a party at my friends house with no fog, bummer! Halloween will be mild here so I may get motivated to build the 3" for comparison, but then again I may not need it. I will post the results if I try.

You've got me thinking now. I also wondered if a 3" inlet with 2" outlet for the back pressure would work better. I may try a reducer on the outlet and compare it to the standard 3" Darn it, I'm not sure i have the time but will look into it.

Happy haunting!


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

Tcarter - love that mausoleum, really puts mine to shame. I did a quick 8x8 out of OSB boards for the FCG this year. I may have to rethink my design.

Great to hear everyone is still working on designs. I just received 2 new foggers, 1200 watt commanders, so I was thinking of getting a couple of cheap 20 or 32 gallon cans at walmart and making one with 2" and the other with 3" and see what happens. 

Time is running short for sure. I have a few last minute details, hot glue webbing, sound, etc, but I was going to wait until 31st for these anyway. Maybe this weekend I can get the two chillers done and see what happens.

I am also very curious on the 2"/3" combination to see what happens. Good luck everyone and Happy Halloween.


----------



## Fright Zone

This thread shall never die - it knows not the meaning of Death! 

The liemavick very long PVC pipe full of ice I've heard works well, but it's so darn long you really need the real estate to use it, and what happens when all the ice melts, that's a lot of water all over the place, unlike a cooler where it can be contained for a while until it's run off in a hose or dumped elsewhere. Although that would be one thing to try on the Vortex outlet is pointing a 90 ro 45 degree upward instead of down to see what happens to the chilled fog on exit.

Back to the Vortex-inspired design. Yes, I think that's the main thing we haven't explored by more than one person yet is the 2" vs 3" PVC. But if the Vortex Mini and Fusion use it successfully (and don't forget 4" on the large trash can container Pro version) it should work. 

I'd also like to know how many are going to use their chillers outside or inside or in between ie. covered porch or opened garage. I'll post my outdoor results after Halloween. And remember I'm also using one of mine for a fogging cauldron effect which lingers and billows but not for the graveyard effect or ground hugging indoor effect, but if it works for one it shoudl work for the other according to my tests so far. With the small fogger and small cooler I'm not above expecting to be a little dissapointed depending on the weather outside on Halloween.


----------



## DeadwoodManor

*Pvc*

I like the tube being so long so I can hide the fog machine from view and I paint the tube black so no one can see it. I've used them for two years and basically I would recommend outdoors only for these as yes when the ice melts I have a drain at the back so it drips out all night. So far I've only had to pack it one time around 6:00 in the evening and by 10:00 it is due for a refill. The ice chest works very well as well. I made my PVC one for $14.00 at Home Depot. Happy Haunting!!!!


----------



## edwood saucer

I have two chillers to slap together this weekend - both will be outside...

Now - not to beg the question - BUT (see I don't want the thread to die either) :

1 - Do most folks seem happy with the PVC and the cooler chiller vs. vortex?
2 - Do most folks like 2" PVC?
3 - Do most folks like 1/3 chamber at bottom or top?

I am going to post a diagram shortly - just to make sure I have the idea right.


----------



## edwood saucer

Take a look at my diagram - is this close?

http://www.fizzcreative.com/haunt/


----------



## tcarter

here's my thoughts. It's supposed to work on the principal that the fog needs to expand fully 1st, and then Chill.
Therefore, the expansion should be at the top, where the fog expands and then cools and falls down to the ice, chills out a bit, and exits. 
I also found that by doing it this way, the flow back from the inlet in almost non existent. The other way around TONS of flowback. 
Screw the ice shelf, you don't need it. The fog finds it's way through fine. On mine, I just tied a small piece of window screen around the outlet pipe to keep ice out, and the filled it with ice. I didn't have enough to fill it more than about 1/2 the available space, but that was enough to work good. I'm probably going to get more ice and fill it to about 2/3 or even 3/4 full and try that. 
I 'm using 3" pipe. it work great. If you're going to use this inside, don't worry, It will work great. If you're using it outside, probably none of these millions of nit-picking variations are going to matter because OUTSIDE FOG CHILLING JUST DOESN'T WORK FOR CRAP! unless there is NO WIND!


----------



## Brad Green

Edwood, your diagram looks fine, just swap where you have the fogger, we've found it works better going into the opening that goes to the top of the cooler.


----------



## incubus0

Has anyone tried putting ice on the ground underneath the black trash bag yet?
A friend of mine in a warmer area just puts ice on the ground in front of the outlet, and that works for them.


----------



## edwood saucer

Thanks guys!


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

I have been thinking about this all day and someone correct me if I am wrong in this thought.

If you used a 2" inlet with a 3" outlet, wouldn't the fog exit slower than it enters becuase the cross area of a 3" is larger thus slowing the exit flow? I remember seeing this when doing my test, however mine was using an insert on the 4" pipe making both ends restricted to 2" diameter. Thefog through the 2" diameter almost looked like a cannon shoot out it was so fast.

I may have to try this over the weekend for fun and see what happens.


----------



## gmacted

Smelly-Skelly said:


> I have been thinking about this all day and someone correct me if I am wrong in this thought.
> 
> If you used a 2" inlet with a 3" outlet, wouldn't the fog exit slower than it enters becuase the cross area of a 3" is larger thus slowing the exit flow? I remember seeing this when doing my test, however mine was using an insert on the 4" pipe making both ends restricted to 2" diameter. Thefog through the 2" diameter almost looked like a cannon shoot out it was so fast.
> 
> I may have to try this over the weekend for fun and see what happens.


That's a good question. I think the pressure in the container would be less, but the volume exiting would be the same. Since the pressure is less and the volume is the same, the fog will roll out slower.

It's all about pressure. Look at it this way, if you have a hose with a very small pin hole, the water will come out of the hole very quickly to try and equalize the pressure inside the hose to that of the outside of the hose. If the hole is very large, no pressure will build.

The larger the hole the less pressure there will be inside the container causing the outward flow to slow. I think the whole idea behind the Vortex chiller is to build pressure for fog distribution.


----------



## CountZero

I would have to agree. I dont have any side by side studies between the 2" and the 3", but my theory is that the 3" would be worse. I'm using 2" pipe on my 60Q igloo vortex style chiller. I'm using at the very minimum a 1000W pro Fogger. I got BETTER results when I put a bag over the outlet which allowed more pressure to build inside the chiller.

Going to a 3" pipe would reduce the pressure, which from what I've seen can reduce your output a little. Going between an unrestricted outlet and the same outlet with a bag over it, there was a visible increase in the volume of fog. The chiller was the same, the fogger was the same. The difference was the pressure in the cooler. the bag seems to do 2 things. 1. Slow the fog down so it billows and rolls rather than shooting out. 2. It seems to hold the fog inside the cooler a little longer, which increases the pressure. 

At first, I figured that increasing the pressure would be bad. I figured that would make it shoot out faster. I was pleasantly surprised that it didnt. Every test that I've done, I've gotten better output with the bag than without. I also tried using a T and a pair of 45's as a manifold, and while that wasnt too bad. I preferred the look and the output with a bag. For my setup, the bag seems to work better than anything else. (and I'm not putting ice in the bag or anything. Just tying a bag on the outlet, and weighting down the bottom of the bag to keep it from flying up.)

Now a 3" inlet and a 2" outlet might be an interesting test to try. And after halloween I may build another chiller and try that. I'm not sure if it will help or not though. I can pump as much fog into that 2" pipe as I want to without backing it up, so I'm not sure a 3" is going to have any real benefit. (I even tried a 1700W fogger, and the chiller just took all the fog that I shot at it.) I'm hoping to do some final testing this weekend. (Last weekends tests were pre-empted by a hearse project that needed to be done.) At this point, all I'm testing for is some final tweaks. I'm very happy with my output. I'm just trying to optimize the ice levels, the cold level, and decide which fogger I want to use this year. The basic design is sound though. I dont think you can go wrong on it, even with 2" pipe.


----------



## tcarter

I have a serious question. Who is going to use this chiller outside?


----------



## krough

I am, or at least I will attempt to. LOL


----------



## Otaku

I'll be using chilled fog in my outside cemetery. Once the sun sets, we usually(!) get very little wind.


----------



## Brad Green

I'll be using 3 outside, the two 10gal. bucket versions in my cemetery and the 60 qt. Igloo pumping through my mortuary scene. Upper 60's after sunset and all the test runs have been great.


----------



## Smelly-Skelly

Count Zero - Great information. I think I will go with the 2" for this year and experiment later. Thinking about it again tonight, it makes sense the larger the inlet/outlet the more surface area the actual pressure coming out of the fogger can work with thus lowering the overall pressure/velocity. It would also make sense if someone wants to move the fog a long distance the 2" should be consider to maintain velocity (at least to a point).

I plan to run 3 foggers outside with chillers, weather permitting, to maintain a good level of fog in the cemetary.


----------



## gmacted

tcarter said:


> I have a serious question. Who is going to use this chiller outside?


I used my chiller outside last year and it worked great. It wasn't a full-blown Vortex chiller at the time (I call it the "pseudo Vortex chiller"), but I still thought the fog clung to the ground quite nicely. I would post my video from Halloween last year, but I had to remove it from my web space to make some room for this years projects. I'm a little hesitant to make any changes to it this year since it worked so well last year, but I think I may. Most of the changes can be easily reversed if need be.

If you're interested, here's a link to my MIB (Monster in Box) project for this year. This is the project that kept me from doing any experimentation on the Vortex Chiller this year.


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## tcarter

Well I apologize for being so blunt or rough on my last post there, I just went back and reread it. It wasn't my intention, anyway, I tested my chiller outside last night, I thought it would be perfect. It was about as calm a night as it gets around here. You couldn't feel any wind, and there was no sign of trees branches swaying at all, but the darn fog just whooshed away like there was a gale. The last little bit of extra cold fog trickling out after the fogger ended the cycle lingered for a few seconds but that's about it. I know the thing works well, I tested 2 nights ago in my Garage and it filled a 16 x 16 ft area with thick ankle deep fog with just one 15 second burst that lingered for about a full minute before dissipating. So, I guess the yard isn't going to have much ground fog, but at least it will be lower.


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## edwood saucer

I think low fog is all we can hope for!

I'm actually going to build two chillers and let one fogger (I have three) - just sort of cloud things up.

It'll probably all end up a mess. But that's the fun of it.


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## gmacted

tcarter said:


> Well I apologize for being so blunt or rough on my last post there, I just went back and reread it. It wasn't my intention, anyway, I tested my chiller outside last night, I thought it would be perfect. It was about as calm a night as it gets around here. You couldn't feel any wind, and there was no sign of trees branches swaying at all, but the darn fog just whooshed away like there was a gale. The last little bit of extra cold fog trickling out after the fogger ended the cycle lingered for a few seconds but that's about it. I know the thing works well, I tested 2 nights ago in my Garage and it filled a 16 x 16 ft area with thick ankle deep fog with just one 15 second burst that lingered for about a full minute before dissipating. So, I guess the yard isn't going to have much ground fog, but at least it will be lower.


That's the one reason why I bought a constant fogger (VEI V-950). The fog may be blown away, but it is constantly being replaced. If the wind is too strong, the effect is ruined, but as long as the wind is relatively mild, the effect is great. I try to shield the wind as much as possible with my props.


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## Lunatic

I will be using two 60 qt. Igloo cubes - reverse vortex design 2" pvc, with 700watters. I would likely never use them inside because of the residue foggers leave behind, not to mention a hazardous slippery floor it can produce. It's suppossed to be 60 degrees on Halloween and will probably get down around 50 when the sun goes down. I'm thankful for that because it's been in the 
30's overnight for the past week or so.

I received my Martin Magnum 800 today but haven't tried it yet. After opening the box I was a little disappointed. It had some finger prints on it and the nozzle is pointing a little upwards and not straight out. When I test it later today and it doesn't shoot straight I am sending it back. Too much money to spend for a quality fogger that hasn't initially impressed me. Thank God I have two other foggers to use.

Final thought, reading the last two pages of this thread I must say that I will not try 3" pvc in my second cooler. I don't want to take a chance in producing less than desirable results so close to Halloween.


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## Fright Zone

Low lying fog is beginning to become like snow is to Xmas or fireweorks are to the 4th of July ; )

I understand the reservation about using it indoors and out and about experimenting with 3" PVC so close to Halloween. I think even if the fog billows away it looks cooler than straight out of the fogger most of the time. But yes, I'm prepared for either wrestling with the slightest wind by moving the chiller or being somewhat dissapointed. I'd agree a constant fogger is probably the best combatant to any wind. I've seen multiple 1400W interval and 4400W constant foggers outdoors at least do the job, if not get the desired effect (not with a chiller though). So more foggers with more power,, something most of us can't do though. I may try pointing mine at the black 3ft tarp border fence that I have to see if it keeps it contained and knocked down if there's wind destroying my little 400W Gemmy fog.


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## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> Low lying fog is beginning to become like snow is to Xmas or fireweorks are to the 4th of July


Great analogy!


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## Long_Tom

The third hazard of indoor fogging is smoke alarms. Sooner or later, some of the fog gets up to them, and then...."BEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeee...." I had to pacify my alarm company last week when I was testing in the garage.

I agree that it is very hard to get fog that is both low-lying and that fills a yard space properly. Either it gets hung up in the grass and doesn't fill the space, or it blows the wrong way, or away completely, with the littlest puff of wind, or both. Still, people ooh and aah over it when they get even a decent patch floating through, so it's worth the aggravation.


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## tcarter

Fright Zone said:


> Low lying fog is beginning to become like snow is to Xmas or fireweorks are to the 4th of July ; )


Fools we all are I suppose, but dedicated fools nonetheless. Maybe some retailer will take a note to this and make it easier on us by devising an economlically feasible system that works. Of course, not many of us would buy it if they did as everyone always says. "I can build one cheaper."


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## Daphne

Just out of curiousity... Is it possible that some type of low "fence" surrounding the cemetary would help contain the fog against a slight amount of wind or would that only work on a tiny area? The chiller will get it down much lower so it seems like a fence could create a type of windbreak but then again... I have one big weeping juniper on one side and it is rather spooky to start with but I am concerned about the other 3 sides. The only Halloween type fencing I've seen is rather expensive for a little section so it would have to be like my tombstones and get that DIY touch. (any links to cool fencing ideas would be appreciated)

I won't have time to try it this year, I don't even have the supports in my tombstones to stand them up and my chiller is still a white 60qt cooler in the garage.

It does at least sound like the 2" pipe is the way to go on the chiller though so that is what I am going to get. 

I never thought about setting off a smoke alarm indoors, outstanding tip there!

Thanks so much everyone.


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## tcarter

Daphne said:


> (any links to cool fencing ideas would be appreciated)


I don't think the fence would work, the wind would still get to it, but here's a cool easy to make fence link
http://www.hauntershangout.com/home/myfence.asp

and a photo of my version of it


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## Lunatic

I agree LT, a little fog is better than nothing. Quality fog no matter how little impresses people. Unless it rains and there’s lots of wind it’s not worth it. We are having 2-3 inches of rain on Saturday with 50-60 mile/hour winds. I will not attempt to create fog that night for a party. Also, good tip on the smoke alarm sensitivity to fogging. It didn’t even enter my mind. 

FZ, I agree with you. Fog has become the thing to do for Halloween and the best fog is through a chiller. I’d rather have it hugging the ground than eating eat!

Daphne, yes, do the 2” pvc. It will work. I’m not comfortable about going to the 3” in my 60 quart cooler in fear that it won’t build enough pressure. FYI, I wrapped the 90 degree inlet pipe with copper pipe foam insulation. I haven’t used it this way as of yet but it should help slow down the ice from melting around the pipe. I experienced some deep melting around the pipe during some testing last week. About the fencing, I would have to say that a short fence with perhaps some black plastic on the inside would help hold the fog in but if it’s windy it will still blow out to some degree. 

TCarter, nice work! Those photos are impressive.


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## Daphne

tcarter, that looks awesome. The witch and guardians of the mauseolem are amazing also!

Lunatic, I will definitely use the 2" although the PVC that my husband picked up is labeled 2" but the OD is actually 2 3/8. Weird, I thought it would be 2" on the outside and smaller on the inside. I had already planned to use the pipe wrap to conserve ice. 

I plan to do the 1/3 vs. 2/3 expansion chamber test hopefully today, tomorrow at the latest.

Sure wish I'd started this earlier so I could build more props. Everyone here has such wonderful ideas and I appreciate all of your help.


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## edwood saucer

I agree with everyone of Daphne's comments.... great job to all - just wish we had another month!


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## edwood saucer

CHillers a great success.... 2" PVC, two coolers on wheels (don't know the capacity. Fog gently rolling down the hill - very very cool. Did the intake with the 90 degree elbow... no precise measurements - and no ice shelf - just filled the cooler 2/3rds full of ice.

I will take pictures tomorrow night as we ToT on the 30th and have a town parade on the 31st.


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## Lunatic

I did get a chance Saturday night after it rained all day to do a few hours of fogging during a party. It was absolutely miserable all day with heavy rain and high winds. I only used one of my 60 qt cubes on wheels. I used an entire 40 lb bag of quality ice cubes I picked up at an ice supply house. It was still a few inches from the lid. As you may remember I have the fogger on top of the cooler and it works great. I set the fogger for 30" blasts. Even though it was pretty windy I just moved the set-up around the back yard and created some descent atmosphere. The next day there was still 2/3 ice left. 

The insulation wrapped around the inlet inside the cooler worked great. There was no sign of ice melting around it. The ice melted slowly and evenly with no deep melting near the pipe as I experienced during testing a week ago without insulation. Thanks to I think Brad for the idea or was it FZ? If it was someone else thank YOU for the idea. The thread is too long to reread who talked about it.

Anyway, Halloween is going to be well into the 60's and calm here in the Boston area, lucky me!


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## mcmcomput

I was wondering if anyone has tried placing a wall on the inside of the chiller, rather than the 90' elbow and PVC going straight up from the output pipe? I tried it on my small chiller, and it seemed to work ok, havn't re-modified it to the original vortex design. 
basically, the fog enters as normal, rises through the ice(on one side of the wall), once it reaches the top, it can go anywhere, just as the previous design, but as it sinks back down, it goes through the ice on the back side (outlet pipe). So it gets 2x the time on the rocks, still has a 1st stage expansion chamber, and you can install just the 90' elbow on the outlet, with it below the ice tray on the bottom level. Make sense?


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## CICreations

I tried my chiller out at my party this past Friday night. I used 20lbs of dry ice instead of regular ice because when I had tried it out before as the ice melted the water level at the bottom of the cooler rose up to the level of the outlet abe began leaking out onto the floor. So anyway the dry ice worked great. Got the fog really cold and the fog hugged the ground the whole night. 

2 tips that I wasn't thinking about before they happened. Make sure the music isn't so loud that you can hear when the fog machine runs out of fog. LOL In between songs I heard the loudest buzzing sound and I realized that's what it was. The other thing is that juice will begin to build up inside the inlet piping after having it going for a couple hours. It will begin to drip on the carpet. I was using a "ground fog juice" that had a purple color to it and it left nice oily purple stain on my white carpet. It came up with carpet cleaner but if I had of known I would have put something under it. 

Anyway Im gonna use it tonight outside during trick or treating so Im gonna use real ice since leaking isn't an issue outside. 

Happy Halloween everyone!


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## Lunatic

mcmcomput said:


> I was wondering if anyone has tried placing a wall on the inside of the chiller, rather than the 90' elbow and PVC going straight up from the output pipe?
> 
> MCMCOMPUT,
> 
> That is some food for thought. I would like to know how that setup would work against the DIY Vortex design. My 60 qt. igloo cube, 2" pvc reverse Vortex chillers are done for this year but maybe that is an idea worth pursuing for next year. I don't plan on changing anything at this point unless someone comes up with some serious improvements over what we've done here in this thread. Happy Haunting!:xbones:
> 
> Oh and I never intend to use my chillers inside where there are rugs because as you unfortunately found out, glycols can make a mess and leave a residue behind just from the fog alone, not to mention spillage or drippage of some sort.


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## Smelly-Skelly

I made a quick chiller tonight out of a kitty litter pail and fired up a 400 watt fogger. Very impressed for about $3 worth of materials and $2 worth of ice.

I was giving designs a thought today and I know it is popular to get the fogger off the ground and on top of the chiller. I was thinking about buying one the Rubbermaid heavy duty garbage cans that are flat on top. Using a 90 degree bend pipe through the lid into the expansion chamber on top.

I see a couple advantages to this design
1. no ice melt around the inlet pipe since fog comes directly into the expansion chamber
2. the fog would be able to expand quicker instead of having to wait to be shot through the inlet pipe up into the expansion chamber.

However I will be modify my 20 gallon can tomorrow from 2" piping to 3" piping as the 2" velocity was too quick for the larger size can and prevented the fog adequate time to chill. The larger pipe will slow the velocity allowing the fog more expansion time, chill time and hopefully better performance.

Now all we need is a windless night. Is that too much to ask for?


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## Daphne

Sorry I never got to the test of the expansion chamber I wanted to do. 

At this point, my chiller is a white 60 qt cooler with two holes drilled with a big rubber grommet in the holes... Guess it has to come together today or else!

Happy Halloween everyone!


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## boscokid775

*Last Minute help?*

I had designed a chiller from random photo's I found online. Basically running dryer vent hose threw a container filled with ice, but once I set it up I found that the fog was "trickling out". Then I was directed to this site yesterday....If I had only known!! Im not sure if the fog isnt getting time to expand or if the hose is too long.....Im stilll learning the science here!

I was wondering if anyone could help me throw something together with the materials I have.

Lite FX 700 watt Fog Machine
RubberMaid Storage Container 3ft x 2ft x 1.5 tall
12ft of aluminum dryer hose 3in diameter
4ft PVC 3 diameter
Lots of duct tape
"some" wire mesh
unlimited ice

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions!


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## Lunatic

Boscokid75,

I would nix the duct work and go with just regular ice cubes. You may be using too much duct work in such a small container and it’s advantageous to have the fog come in contact with the ice. You probably have little time to do anything but try this. 

Take a 4 inch piece of the 3” pvc and cut a hole on the short side of the container at the bottom for the outlet and stick it in a couple inches. Cut another hole on the opposite side near the lid and add another short piece of pvc for the inlet. You may need to glue or tape around the inlet & outlets to control leakage. Take some mesh and place it inside over the outlet leaving some space between it and the bottom of the container, the chilled fog will collect there before exiting. Fill the container about half to two thirds with ice and tighten down the cover. It may leak if not tight enough, put some weight on it if need be. Now prop up the fogger in front of the inlet and shoot the fog straight into the inlet about 3 inches away from the opening. The air gap will pull in fresh cool air and mix with the fog. The fog will then expand in the top expansion area without ice and fall through the ice to be cooled and then exit out the bottom outlet. It’s not necessary but you can use a pipe, or short plastic bag on the outlet to slow down the velocity and distribute the fog where desired.

That is the best you can do on such short notice. When you have more time read this thread and it will give you what you need to build something better. Good luck!


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## incubus0

Spilling in my thank you to everyone that contributed to this thread.

My gotfog conversion to a reverse vortex is working great, primed and painted and ready for this evenings festivities.


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## edwood saucer

Take a picture Incubus - like t osee what you did...


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## boscokid775

*last minute thanks*

Thanks for the last minute help!

The advise was perfect, and my neighbors are still loving it. If they only knew what I can pull next year thanks to this thread. I look forward to Halloween every year, but now I think I will plan so much more in advance.

THANKS AGAIN!


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## slightlymad

This thread was not only great information wise but the timing could not have been better. We assembled the vortex reversed and had the best results ever.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l293/Slightlymad1/Halloween026.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l293/Slightlymad1/Halloween025.jpg


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## Lunatic

Great to here the success stories! What can I say but thanks to this thread as well. Everyone who participated in this thread needs a pat on the back. I am proud to be part of it. I still think we should keep it going or keep something going to help grow this into the next generation of DIY chillers. I can always modify my chillers.

Smelley Skelly,
Yes, I too have thought about placing the inlet directly into the expansion area and bypass the ice wall. But, I went with entering above the ice tray about half way up. I used long sweep elbows for a the inlet from above the lid, down and in and straight back up inside. It worked great and it's worth it if it burps every once in a while. It's nice to have the fogger on top.

My Halloween haunt went exceptionally well tonight. Everything came together perfectly, although there was slight intermittent wind. I did a graveyard and other things at a friends house and the reaction was better than I initially thought it would be. Everyone was impressed. I used 65 pounds of ice and a whole bottle of Foggy's Freezin Fog juice. I was never sold on foggers themselves but after this experience I am sold on the simple concept and dramatic effect. Good props help too. 



When I get some sleep and catch my breath I will try and post a picture if this thread will let me. Thanks again everyone for your help.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Lunatic

I did the same tonight, the wind was rather heavy all day, but I bet on it dying down after the sun went down. Great bet and the fog worked well. I just need some quality foggers at this point. I used 2 kitty litter containers and one 20 gallon trash can with 3" piping. 

I plan to do more testing and videos for everyone to check out on the different configurations etc. 

Everyone that stopped by tonight loved the display and fog. Really set the mood even with the light wind sweeping it away.


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## Long_Tom

It was perfect fogging weather for Halloween tonight: not too cold, and no wind at all, even at sunset (which is very unusual). I had the 20-gallon-Brute going in the back yard with the 700 watt LiteFX, and it worked fantastic. I had at least two people mention having bought their own foggers and complaining that their fog just went up in the air, so I explained about chillers. Maybe I should print business cards for hauntforum, so I can just hand out the address to the mechanically inclined.

I still have one more test to do on the Brute: I can configure it with the ice tray either near the top, with a large expansion area at the bottom, or vice-versa. Tonight I ran the chiller with the tray on top, but fogging in the reverse direction. In this configuration the fog goes through the ice while it is still expanding, which seems suboptimal to me. I want to try it with the ice tray on the bottom and the expansion chamber on the top, because I like running the fog reversed, to keep it from backing out the inlet when the fog machine is idle. The Vortex has the expansion chamber "ahead" of the ice, but it runs the fog into the lower chamber, which tends to back out of the chiller. I'm hoping to get the best of both worlds: full size expansion chamber and the fog won't back out when idling.


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## Daphne

Tip of the week: While handling hardware mesh to make the ice shelf, WEAR GLOVES. My hands look like I've been mauled by Freddy Krueger, they hurt terribly and I can barely type.

I didn't get the chiller finished until 5:30 yesterday. I went with 6" of ice, 10" of expansion area. Thank goodness for the black bag suggestion. The effect didn't really work until I did that. My neighbors now think I am insane since I did a victory dance in the middle of the cemetary when the fog started "working" right. Apparently, someone dancing in low lying fog in a cemetary is not something they see regularly. 

Unfortunately, sometime later last night, something went wrong and the fogger stopped fogging. Clog? Other than trying it the day before for maybe 30 minutes, it is a new machine (VEI 930T). The plastic bag on the output was full of water (forgot to check that) but I did bust the ice up about 3 times inside the chiller. I wouldn't have thought a fogger would clog that easily. I hope the bag of water didn't cause a problem although there was a 3 inch gap between the fogger/chiller. 

Anyway, it looked awesome and when I brought my kids home from trick or treating, some guy was out there taking pictures of the cemetary. 

There is no way the scene would have even remotely worked without everyone's help here. THANKS!!

Oh, another tip, black light hair spray is amazing. I sprayed it on the tombstones and put black lights around, they were very cool!


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## incubus0

Daphne said:


> ...Apparently, someone dancing in low lying fog in a cemetary is not something they see regularly...




The weather was perfect for it here, high 50's to low 60's, very very little wind, which is not normal for us being at the top of a hill in the mountains. The chilling worked great, but the volume was way to low, so I'll be checking the sales for a good 700W - 1000W fogger with more of an output.

The only setback was the ice falling together after about 2 hours. Nothing was moving through, so I ended up just putting the fogger straight into a long black tube the rest of the night.

Now that I know what to expect from it, I'll have a better idea of how to use it next year.


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## Otaku

Another success story here! My modified FOTR chiller with a plastic bag worked fantastically! The wind cooperated by not blowing, and the fog was able to fill the graveyard and roll down the yard and into the street, about 40 feet away from the fog outlet. I was using a Chauvet F-1250 and a Lite F/X 700 watt. The 700 watt fogger was running through a modified GotFog chiller. The mod I used is one that I hadn't seen before, but it seemed to make a lot of sense, so I tried it and it worked great. If I can find the link I'll post it here. Hope all had a happy Halloween, and thanks to all the contributors in this thread.


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## Lunatic

Daphne said:


> Tip of the week: While handling hardware mesh to make the ice shelf, WEAR GLOVES. My hands look like I've been mauled by Freddy Krueger, they hurt terribly and I can barely type.
> 
> I didn't get the chiller finished until 5:30 yesterday. I went with 6" of ice, 10" of expansion area. Thank goodness for the black bag suggestion. The effect didn't really work until I did that. My neighbors now think I am insane since I did a victory dance in the middle of the cemetary when the fog started "working" right. Apparently, someone dancing in low lying fog in a cemetary is not something they see regularly.
> 
> Unfortunately, sometime later last night, something went wrong and the fogger stopped fogging. Clog? Other than trying it the day before for maybe 30 minutes, it is a new machine (VEI 930T). The plastic bag on the output was full of water (forgot to check that) but I did bust the ice up about 3 times inside the chiller. I wouldn't have thought a fogger would clog that easily. I hope the bag of water didn't cause a problem although there was a 3 inch gap between the fogger/chiller.
> 
> Anyway, it looked awesome and when I brought my kids home from trick or treating, some guy was out there taking pictures of the cemetary.
> 
> There is no way the scene would have even remotely worked without everyone's help here. THANKS!!
> 
> Oh, another tip, black light hair spray is amazing. I sprayed it on the tombstones and put black lights around, they were very cool!


Daphne,

Bummer about the fogger breaking down. I'm convinced the chiller did nothing to contribute to the break down. Maybe the fog juice was dirty? I tried the bag on the outlet during testing and it worked well for a short period of time before it got wet and heavy so I got rid of it. I just used a 45 elbow on the outlet and pointed it downward and off to one side where I wanted the fog to go. It seemed to work best for me. I selectively glued only a few parts of the pvc so I could take it apart easily. This way I can modify it anyway I want to fit the application and terrain.

Good tip on the black lite hairspray on the tombstones.


----------



## Otaku

Daphne, my F-1250 clogged it's nozzle about 30 mins. into the evening but a quick probing with a sewing needle cleared the clog. This is the second time this has happened, so I plan to tape a needle to the machine.


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## Smelly-Skelly

Otaku said:


> Daphne, my F-1250 clogged it's nozzle about 30 mins. into the evening but a quick probing with a sewing needle cleared the clog. This is the second time this has happened, so I plan to tape a needle to the machine.


I have the same fogger, but no clogging yet. How often does yours need to recycle and reheat? I can only get a few short burst of fog before it has to reheat. However it does seem to reheat fairly quickly. I just figured when I bought it that at 1200 watts it would be good to go all the time.


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## Grave Digger

Daphne said:


> Tip of the week: While handling hardware mesh to make the ice shelf, WEAR GLOVES. My hands look like I've been mauled by Freddy Krueger, they hurt terribly and I can barely type.
> 
> Unfortunately, sometime later last night, something went wrong and the fogger stopped fogging. Clog? Other than trying it the day before for maybe 30 minutes, it is a new machine (VEI 930T).


Hi Daphne,

Sorry to hear about your hamburger hands. If it's really cold out your way keep them warm and dry.... otherwise they'll crack, bleed and then you'll really be loving life. Been there, done that, got the sweat shirt. 

About your fogger clogging. I'm inclined to suspect your fog juice. What brand of juice did you buy? How old was it? I've read that some of the economy brands are more likely to clog due to the manufacturing process (or lack of) they go thru. Also old fog juice (over a year or two) starts to thicken depending on what temperature it's stored at (fog juice stored at higher temps has a shorter shelf life).

I bought 3 gallons of Martin fog juice (didn't want to run out on Halloween and besides - I got a 4th gallon free with shipping built into the case price - http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fluids/MARFOGFOUR/ ) just before Halloween.

Of course it was just after I bought 4 gallons that I learned fog juice doesn't have a long term shelf life (according to Alex Ocampo a member of the Technical Support Staff at www.martin.com).

Here is the reply I received in a inquiry about the shelf life of fog fluid.

"As far as the fluid, you must keep in mind that all fluid will thicken and smell after a year when stored. The only thing that can accelerate the process is temperature of the storage environment. For example, a garage in south Florida may spoil the fluid in about 6 months to a year while a place that is a controlled environment may take 1 to 2 years.

Best Regards,
Alex Ocampo
Technical Support Specialist
Martin Professional, Inc.
[email protected]
www.martinpro.com "

So the bottom line is always buy quality fog juice AND make sure what you're buying isn't old fluid.

It wouldn't surprise me to see more than a few resellers unloading old fluid at bargain basement prices to a unsuspecting public.

That really inexpensive fluid on sale might not such a good deal after all. Who knows how long it was in a warehouse.

Otherwise you're more likely to have a clogged machine and who has time to deal with that on a busy halloween night?

As always your mileage may vary... no deposit no return, offer void where prohibited.

I ran my 1600 watt fogger for 4 hours on Halloween (15 seconds fog burst with a 45 second pause between cycles) and didn't have a any problems. Total fog consumption - 1 gallon. Fog juice - Martin Pro Smoke Super (ZR Mix) http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=prosmokesuperzrmix

Note to reader: Originally when I ordered fog juice from www.midweststereo.com I ordered Martin "Regular DJ Fluid". When my order arrived I was pleasantly surprised to see I received Martin Pro Smoke Super (ZR Mix) instead at no additional cost. 

As always,
Grave Digger

:xbones:


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## Lunatic

Grave Digger,

I used Froggy's Freezin Fog juice and actually tried filtering the juice before I used it. I found it to be extremely clean with no particulate visible to the eye. I used an entire gallon on Halloween without a problem.

I bought a Martin fogger but used my two FX700's with 60 qt. chillers. Do you have a Martin fogger or are you just using their fog juice?


----------



## Grave Digger

Lunatic said:


> Grave Digger,
> 
> I used Froggy's Freezin Fog juice and actually tried filtering the juice before I used it. I found it to be extremely clean with no particulate visible to the eye. I used an entire gallon on Halloween without a problem.
> 
> I bought a Martin fogger but used my two FX700's with 60 qt. chillers. Do you have a Martin fogger or are you just using their fog juice?


Lunatic,
Glad to hear you had no problems with your fog juice.

Yes I too am a happy owner of a Martin fogger. I have the Martin Magnum Pro 2000 (1600 watt heater). I tried it out Tues. night for the first time... and WOW! What a cloud of fog the first time I turned it on at 100% (not yet connected to my chiller). It put out so much airborne fog so fast the neighbors thought my house was on fire when they saw red flood lights on the house thru the fog (they thought it was the flames of a fire) as they were driving by..... So much so they stopped and came over and knocked on my door just to make sure.

So yes.... it passed the grin test for me. The BIG grin test. LOL

So if anyone was a great fogger... You can't beat the Martin foggers for build quality, thermal protection, and well as variable fog output (most models).

But if you want maximum fog output..... you gotta so with the Martin Magnum Pro 2000. Yes it was more than I planned to spend... but after seeing it in action I don't regret it. The 2.5 gallon tank means I can fill it with fog juice and forget about it running dry on Halloween night.

Also NO one ever complains for having too much horsepower (or in this case too large a heater in their fog machine). 

See a video of it in action here:
http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=magnumpro2000

I first learned about the Martin brand of foggers while looking into getting a Vortex fog chiller at Deathlord's web site http://www.deathlord.net/Products/vortexpage.htm . I found Deathlord's web site after discovering a link to it at http://www.gotfog.com while researching how to build a fog chiller http://www.gotfog.com/fog_machine_chiller.html .

So it was the gotfog.com site that I have to credit with starting me on this journey to building my own fog chiller... which in the end.... landed me here to this great thread.

I ended up building a 44 gallon (RubberMaid Trash Can) Vortex Pro style fog chiller with 2/3 expansion, 1/3 ice, 4 inch inlet / outlets. 

I plan on posting photos and video in the days to come.

**** Disclaimer *****
I don't work for or know anyone who does work for any of the companies who make any of the above mentioned products. I'm just a happy owner. 

Cheers,

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## Daphne

Lunatic: the juice shouldn't be dirty. I received the fogger and juice a week ago. It is VEI juice and I have a VEI fogger so I thought everything would be fine. My understanding was that I should use the juice that was "designed" for my machine so I bought a gallon of it with the fogger. How long Haunted Fog had both items for I can't say however. I didn't notice a smell when I opened it.

None of my PVC is glued either. No ill effects other than fog coming out around the lid. I didn't tape it since I needed to get in to bust up ice. The 45 angle is a good idea. You just stuck a 45 on the end of the chiller pipe and that was all?

Otaku: stupid question but where did you stick the needle? Only option I'd think is the output nozzle. The manual gave a suggested mixture to unclog I think but I haven't had a chance to look at it. I can honestly say that if the VEI machine is going to clog after only a few hours use, I am not going to be a happy camper. My theory was that a $150 machine would perform better than the cheap models I could score locally.

Grave Digger: Hamburger hands is right and they hurt badly. Nailing my fingertips was the worst part. Typing or anything requiring my fingers to bend is horrible.

As I mentioned to Lunatic, the juice may be old but I have only had it a week and it is VEI's stuff. I didn't go through the juice as fast as I'd expect and it has a nice big reservoir. Will a machine burn itself up with a clog? Please say no.

Is it actually OK to use other manufacturer's juice in your fogger?

If anyone else has the VEI machine, are the instructions (both manual and on the machine) backwards? It says to wait to push the fog button until the light is out but I think it is supposed to be when it is on.


----------



## Daphne

Wow the Martin IS impressive! Unfortunately though, at $500 it would also result in my having to sleep outside in the graveyard!

Of course when my husband finds out how much I spent the last two days at the local Halloween places enjoying 50% off, I may end up out there anyway ha, ha!


----------



## Otaku

Daphne, the first time I found the nozzle clogged was about 10 mins. into the 1st use. I was testing a new chiller when the output suddenly dropped to about 10% and the pump sounded odd. I shut down and waited for the nozzle to cool. The F-1250 nozzle is easy to remove from the outside of the machine, so I took it off and couldn't see any light through the nozzle opening. I cleared the clog with a small sewing needle, replaced the nozzle and all was well. On Halloween night, the same thing happened, but I couldn't wait for a cool-down so I powered off and stuck the needle into the nozzle opening and moved it around gently. I didn't want to damage the geometry of the opening (enlarge the hole) as it's probably optimized for the fogger. On restart, it immediately went back to full output and didn't clog for the rest of the night (about 4 hours). I haven't yet removed the nozzle to see what was blocking it. Also, I think the unclog fluid that VEI suggests is probably for clogged heater tubes.


----------



## Grave Digger

Daphne said:


> Wow the Martin IS impressive! Unfortunately though, at $500 it would also result in my having to sleep outside in the graveyard!
> 
> Of course when my husband finds out how much I spent the last two days at the local Halloween places enjoying 50% off, I may end up out there anyway ha, ha!


Hi Daphne.

I found a good deal with a dealer on the Internet (thanks Google) for $449.99 with free shipping at http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fog/MARMP2000/ . The advertised price is $499.99 , but if you call and ask for the sale price they will sell it to you for $449.99 .

On the 50% sale: lets us know what all you picked up.

I took advantage of a 25% off sale at Halloweenasylum.com

I picked up a really cool 4 foot Tombstone to add to my growing collection http://www.halloweenasylum.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=303

and a couple of Gortraits (I 'll hang them over the fireplace where they can be seen from the front door)
http://www.halloweenasylum.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=454
http://www.halloweenasylum.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=453

Update:
You can watch a video of these Gortraits transform here:
http://www.frightcatalog.com/Hallow...Illusions/Lady+Spoilt+Gortrait+14x18-1006140/
http://www.frightcatalog.com/Hallow...ons/Captain+Redgrieve+Gortrait+14x18-1006139/

I would have waited longer for larger discounts.... but the longer I wait the greater chance they might sell out of the merchandise I want so I just pulled the trigger.

Now I only have to dread the day the postman delivers the American Express statement for all these Halloween goodies. Gulp.

Looks like I'll be eating pork-in-beans for a while LOL.

Seriously I did spend more this year than I planned since I was starting from scratch (this was my first Halloween haunt so I had to buy everything all at once).... but on the positive side these props and hardware should last for years.

Happy discount shopping,

Grave Digger
:xbones:

P.S.
If your husband does boots ya out to the sleep in the graveyard....bring a extra blanket.


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## Daphne

What did I get? He, he... what did I not...
Let's see. 
1) A giant skeleton hanging thing. The head is huge with scary eyes, big hands, long hair and about a ten foot drape. It doesn't sound big until you try to get it into the back seat of a car and have to push the hands in to shut the door.

2) http://www.halloweenexpress.com/skeleton-large-with-chains-p-8674.html 
3) Big upside down latex bat (very cool with red glass looking eyes)
4) Two flying bats
5) Three stryofoam heads
6) 20 weapons (black handle with double edge axe blade and skeleton head in middle of blade) plan to use them somehow on a fence or near the witch's cauldron where she keeps the victims
7) One piece skeleton head with hair and torso/arms to come out of ground in front of tombstone
8) Witch mask for the cauldron scene (freaky eyes)
9) Huge snarling latex cat
10) 3 big chains (2 with huge hooks, again for the cauldron)
11) Freddy Crueger glove (to go over the Freddy tombstone with the dripping blood)
12) Green witch hands to go with cauldron scene
13) small assorted witch pull on fingers (not sure why...)

Seems like something else but I can't remember... It was over $500 but 50% off.

This was my first big decorating year also. I didn't keep track of how much I spent before Halloween but it was substantial. I'll need to hide the budget for awhile I think...

The Gortraits are really cool Grave Digger and I have never seen a tombstone like that!

To keep it on topic, I will see if the nozzle comes off my fogger, I am fairly sure it doesn't but I will see if I can figure out what is wrong with it and will definitely try the elbow on the chiller output.


----------



## Lunatic

Grave digger,
Nice Martin rig ya got there. I only have the Magnum 800. I too first learned of the Martins from Deathlords and Vortex products. I wondered if the dry fog produced by the Martins would create a higher quality fog over the cheapos that produce a wetter fog. Any comments about that?

Daphne,
Yeah, I wouldn't expect the fog juice to be dirty. I learned from the gentleman that sold me my quality Martin fogger that many of his clients use the cheaper stuff (not the cheapest) and just filter it through a t-shirt to remove any particulate. He has never had anyone return a fogger because it broke sown. I had a lengthy conversation about fog fluids with him and I'm convinced that as long as you don't by a gallon for 10 bucks that you should be safe with the 20 dollar stuff.

Yes, all I did is pushed on a 45 elbow onto the outlet and it worked great. In fact, I tried an 18 inch extension with the 45 and it didn't perform as well. Keep in mind that i'm using an FX700 watt fogger in a 60 qt igloo cube. A larger fogger may benefit from the extra length of pipe.

If I can figure out how to add another photo I'll attach one. It looks like I've filled my quota for this thread.


----------



## Daphne

Otaku, thank you thank you!

I got my fogger back out today dreading it. The nozzle on the VEI is open where you can see the tiny hole in the center, I gently put a needle in it and encountered no resistance until I got way in there and I immediately stopped. I turned it back on and it worked like a charm. That tiny hole was apparently stopped up. I would have never figured that out or thought to try this.

I still can't figure out why the manual and instructions on the machine say to only press the fog button when the light is off. It only fires when the light is on but that is a different issue.

Thanks so much for the tip though!


----------



## Grave Digger

Lunatic said:


> Grave digger,
> Nice Martin rig ya got there. I only have the Magnum 800. I too first learned of the Martins from Deathlords and Vortex products. I wondered if the dry fog produced by the Martins would create a higher quality fog over the cheapos that produce a wetter fog. Any comments about that?
> 
> Daphne,
> Yeah, I wouldn't expect the fog juice to be dirty. I learned from the gentleman that sold me my quality Martin fogger that many of his clients use the cheaper stuff (not the cheapest) and just filter it through a t-shirt to remove any particulate. He has never had anyone return a fogger because it broke sown. I had a lengthy conversation about fog fluids with him and I'm convinced that as long as you don't by a gallon for 10 bucks that you should be safe with the 20 dollar stuff.


Lunatic,
Your Martin 800 is a very nice, quality fogger so it should serve you for years to come. When I decided to get a Martin brand fogger the model 800 was the model I decided to get initially. After a lot of hand wringing and floor pacing I kept thinking I would need more power! (sounds of Tim Allen grunting like a monkey/pig come to mind). So I looked at the next step up the Martin Magnum 1500 http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=magnum1500 . I even bid on a new one on ebay for only $174.86 , but I was outbid in the last 30 seconds of the auction. After some head banging for not setting a high enough bid amount on eBay, I found the next best price for a new unit at midweststereo.com for $299.99 http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fog/MARMAGNUM1500/ .

So I got to thinking there was only a $150.00 difference in price between the Martin Magnum 1500 and the Martin Magnum Pro 2000.... so I bit my tongue and pulled the trigger on the 2000.

I got the bigger unit with the intention of piping my chilled fog to two different locations (front yard and the drive way) from the safety of my closed garage (with a 4 inch ABS pipe running under the partially closed door). That way I would only have to build one chiller (44 gallon Trash can), and purchase one fogger (although a much bigger model than I initially planned to purchase). I decided to keep it all in the garage (with the door lowered almost to the ground) to keep any Halloween vandals (teenagers) from running off with my fogger while I was distracted passing out candy to the kids.

Re:
"I wondered if the dry fog produced by the Martins would create a higher quality fog over the cheapos that produce a wetter fog. Any comments about that?"

I don't know myself, but you can ask the Martin Technical Support rep to find out for sure.

Alex Ocampo
Technical Support Specialist
Martin Professional, Inc.
www.martinpro.com

954-375-2842 x264 direct
954.858.1800 office
954.858.1811 fax
MSN Messenger = [email protected]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
As to why the Martin fog juice cost more than the inexpensive fog fluids...

http://www.martin.com/productsubgroup/productsubgroup.asp?psg=fluids

"All fluids are environmentally friendly and water based. They are made from the highest quality food grade polyfunctional alcohols which are diluted with water and purified by double reverse osmosis and a ultraviolet filtration processes. This guarantees a virtually mineral and bacteria free product."

As to why they go thru the reverse osmosis and a ultraviolet filtration processes.... my best guess is since Martin is the leading provider of fog machine and fog juice to so many outdoor/indoor concerts, stage shows around the world... they can't take a chance on using any fog juice that might be contaminated with bacteria. Think of the people who might get sick (respiratory problems) with contaminated fog juice at a outdoor concert with 35,000 people. The negative press along would seriously hurt the company image and depress sales (not to mention the 100s or even thousands of lawsuits - can you say class-action lawsuit?).

Even at $26 a gallon the Martin fog juice isn't too expensive if you can get it locally. It's the UPS shipping that jacks up the price if you have to have it shipped to you.

If you get a chance pickup some Martin fog juice and compare it's output to the brand of fog juice you're using now.

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## Grave Digger

Daphne said:


> Otaku, thank you thank you!
> 
> I got my fogger back out today dreading it. The nozzle on the VEI is open where you can see the tiny hole in the center, I gently put a needle in it and encountered no resistance until I got way in there and I immediately stopped. I turned it back on and it worked like a charm. That tiny hole was apparently stopped up. I would have never figured that out or thought to try this.
> 
> I still can't figure out why the manual and instructions on the machine say to only press the fog button when the light is off. It only fires when the light is on but that is a different issue.
> 
> Thanks so much for the tip though!


Daphne,

Before you put your fogger away in storage for next year's Halloween you might want to run some cleaning fluid thru it. You can buy it commercially or you can make your own. It only requires distilled water and white vinegar. The recipe according to Alex Ocampo at Martin Professional, Inc. is:

"The cleaning formula is 1 part white vinegar to 10 parts distilled water."

Make up a batch and run it thru your fogger that way the old fog juice won't clog your hose, nozzle, pump, and heater.

Hope this helps,

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## Long_Tom

I would think that the vinegar would cause corrosion if left in the system all year? I'm guessing it would be a good idea to follow up the vinegar solution by rinsing and running some pure distilled water through the system. If I'm wrong about that, now would be a good time to correct me ;-)


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## Otaku

I have an older Lite F/X model 1741 700 watt that I've never flushed with a cleaning solution, just left a bit of the fog juice in the tank and stored it. It's been running strong for 5 Halloweens now. There's a lot of opinions and advice, both from users and manufacturers about fogger maintenance and some of it is contradictory. As far as leaving acetic acid (vinegar) in the system, I'd vote against it, too. And as for running distilled water through the system, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that the pump relies on the glycerine for lubrication. I may just be lucky, but storage with a little bit of fog juice has worked for me.


----------



## Daphne

My understanding was that VEI's recommendation on their foggeres was the same as Otaku and the glycerine was actually a good thing in there. I wouldn't have thought so either but was kind of afraid to put anything else through it after that. 

I won't be able to stand the suspense so I will have to run the fogger back through the chiller (back to the store for more ice...) to check out the 45 degree angle on the output before I store it for the year. If not, I'll finally break down around February and be freezing out in the yard testing it!

So if I understand this correctly, Martin is "the man" of foggers then? Wish I'd known that before I bought the VEI. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome fogger, I just like to try to get "the best" if possible since if anything can break, it always does when I buy it. I am thinking of having Murphy's Law painted on my house ha, ha!


----------



## Grave Digger

Long_Tom said:


> I would think that the vinegar would cause corrosion if left in the system all year? I'm guessing it would be a good idea to follow up the vinegar solution by rinsing and running some pure distilled water through the system. If I'm wrong about that, now would be a good time to correct me ;-)


Long_Tom

The Cleaning solution wasn't designed to be left in the system during storage... You simply add the white vinegar and distilled water solution to the fogger's empty tank and then you run the fogger normally until all the cleaning solution has run thru the system.

Then you store the fogger empty (dry).

Below is a list of questions and answers (Q & A) I received from Alex Ocampo, Technical Support Specialist at Martin Professional, Inc. (marker of the Martin fog machines).

Q - After use is it recommend to clean the Martin Magnum Pro 2000 to 
remove any impurities and residue from the pump, heater and hose 
before long term storage (1 year)?

A - "It is always good practice to keep you're machine clean and have
good flowing fluid lines. With that being said, our fluid is a solution
that is 99% water, therefore will not clog as easy as lets say an oil
based fluid."

Q - I plan on using this product once a year and need to store it after 
Halloween. Some say fog machines shouldn't be cleaned unless there is 
a problem... others tell me it should be cleaned before long term storage.

A - "If you intend to use it once a year, it would be a good idea to
clean out the machine after use and store it. It is recommended you buy
new fluid every year since the fluid will thicken and smell bad after a
year in storage (Especially if in a hot location, like a garage)."

Q - what is the recommended cleaning solution (to clean out the 
hoses and heat exchanger) I should use prior to storage? I've heard 
mention something along the lines of 50% distilled water and 50% 
White Vinegar - http://www.djzone.net/pg/news/tech1/66.shtml

A - "The cleaning formula is 1 part white vinegar to 10 part distilled water."

Q - Should this machine be stored "dry" (with no fog juice in it's fog 
container) or should it be stored filled (to possibly keep gaskets and seals from drying out)?

A - "You should store it 'dry' "

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding on the subject. If not let me know.

Grave Digger,
:xbones:


----------



## Grave Digger

Daphne said:


> So if I understand this correctly, Martin is "the man" of foggers then? Wish I'd known that before I bought the VEI. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome fogger, I just like to try to get "the best" if possible since if anything can break, it always does when I buy it. I am thinking of having Murphy's Law painted on my house ha, ha!


Daphne.
When I first started shopping for a fogger (after research at www.gotfog.com) I was looking to get a VEI model myself based on recommendations at gotfog. It wasn't until I discovered Deathlords website and saw a demo of the Vortex line of fog chillers that I noticed the Martin line. So I followed a link to the Martin web site to check them out. I couldn't help but be impressed. For example check out this demo of the "Jem Hydra" system using 16 of the Martin Magnum 1500 foggers in unison.

There is a video clip of this system on the right hand side of the page. Click on the magnifying glass above and to the right of the video window to enlarge the video. Then click on the red X by the speaker icon to turn on the sound. Enjoy!

http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=hydra

After you see this tell me you don't want one... Just think of what you could do with this next Halloween.

Yea I know. Your husband would disown you if you bought one of these. But just think... you wouldn't have to refill it all night with it's two 25 liter fog juice containers. 

So yea..."Martin is the man of foggers"... 

Grave Digger,
:xbones:


----------



## Lunatic

Daphne said:


> My understanding was that VEI's recommendation on their foggeres was the same as Otaku and the glycerine was actually a good thing in there. I wouldn't have thought so either but was kind of afraid to put anything else through it after that.
> 
> I won't be able to stand the suspense so I will have to run the fogger back through the chiller (back to the store for more ice...) to check out the 45 degree angle on the output before I store it for the year. If not, I'll finally break down around February and be freezing out in the yard testing it!
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, Martin is "the man" of foggers then? Wish I'd known that before I bought the VEI. Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome fogger, I just like to try to get "the best" if possible since if anything can break, it always does when I buy it. I am thinking of having Murphy's Law painted on my house ha, ha!


Daphne,

I'm not sure if Martins are the best but after doing some research on the net it appears they rank right up their. I like the pump ramping circuitry which creates a quieter running unit without the hickups and spitting like the cheaper units. It also produces a drier fog than the cheapos. Not to knock the cheapos because they worked great for me and several poster's here. I would use your existing fogger until it dies one day. Several people use it and they love it. But here's the kicker for me. I bought a Martin and used my cheapo's this year. I never used it with my chillers. I intend to do some comparison testing against the 700 watters that I have. I'm convinced the Martin will be the one that will last the longest.

I hope the 45's work for you but you are using a more powerful unit than me. You may benefit from adding a short length of pipe including the 45 in order to slow down the velocity a little. I wondered if adding two outlets would be good to slow down the velocity when using a high power fogger.


----------



## Grave Digger

Lunatic said:


> Daphne,
> 
> I would use your existing fogger until it dies one day.


Daphne

I agree with Lunatic. Use it until it dies. It's a good unit and it should work well for you for a number of years. If you keep having issues with it clogging try a different brand of fog juice. The folks at gotfog.com recommend it highly so I wouldn't worry about it unless it was to go south on you (unlikely).

But if down the road one day you are the market for a second fogger... take a serious look at the Martins. A model like the Martin Magnum 1500 can be easily and cheaply connected to up to four other 1500 models (via a simple data cable with RJ-45 connectors - Ehternet cable as far as I know) and all controlled with one remote. It's these little extras that make it shine. See page 14 of the user's manual for more info http://www.martin.com/service/downloadfile.asp?name=UM_Magnum1500_EN_A.pdf&cat=65

If you need to control more than 4 units you can add a DMX module and do so.

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## frstvamp1r

gmacted...I cant seem to download the manual for the Vortex Fog Chiller...think you can repost it for me please?


----------



## Grave Digger

frstvamp1r said:


> gmacted...I cant seem to download the manual for the Vortex Fog Chiller...think you can repost it for me please?


frstvamp1r

You can get it here

http://www.deathlord.net/Products/Pics/vortex_instruction_manual.jpg

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## Daphne

Grave Digger, the Jem Hydra is AMAZING! I think it is safe to say that my purchasing something like that would probably cause my husband to pass out (and confiscate my credit cards and move me into the front yard)! It is very cool though, very cool indeed. 

Lunatic, I tried the 45 this evening and you are right. My machine is too strong for it. Perhaps a manifold with three outputs and possibly 45's on them or maybe just a longer pipe with 1 or 2 45's. The bag worked beautifully but then filled with water. I've wracked my brain for something else to try. I considered a plastic sweater box or something that could have a hole for a drain melted into the bottom and then an output on the lower front. I even considered drilling a hole in the bottom of the PVC output pipe and using a barbed fitting or something to attach to flexible tubing (like on the chiller drain hole) and then have the end of the pipe go into the bag as before. My question of course is would the fog come out there instead and would the water come out in the bag still? You can't exactly drain the bag away from the area, you could cut a slit for the water to come out but you'd need a flat pan of some sort going into tubing to drain away from the site. Since I have rubber grommets instead of silicone sealing the input/output holes, I could actually have the output PVC tilt down slightly and figure a way to let water drain. My issue though is this: 1) is the water coming from the ice (cooler hole is too high so water doesn't actually go out through the correct hole, or 2) does condensation occur in the bag to create it. I didn't think to look at the silly thing to check. It may be as simple as drilling a new drain hole in the bottom of the cooler and going back to a bag. I am probably making this too hard, wouldn't be the first time.

When this fogger dies (cross your fingers it isn't soon!), I think I'll get a Martin. If I require a second big fogger I will definitley check them out. I know I will need around a 400W fogger for the witches cauldron next year so I'll see what they have. A Martin fogger may be overkill for something like that but my understanding is the cheap ones last a season and that's it. Thanks so much everyone!


----------



## Grave Digger

Daphne said:


> Grave Digger, the Jem Hydra is AMAZING! I think it is safe to say that my purchasing something like that would probably cause my husband to pass out (and confiscate my credit cards and move me into the front yard)! It is very cool though, very cool indeed.
> 
> When this fogger dies (cross your fingers it isn't soon!), I think I'll get a Martin. If I require a second big fogger I will definitely check them out. I know I will need around a 400W fogger for the witches cauldron next year so I'll see what they have. A Martin fogger may be overkill for something like that but my understanding is the cheap ones last a season and that's it. Thanks so much everyone!


Daphne
You can pick up the smallest Martin fogger (600 watts) for around $89.00. It comes with a remote control, but it doesn't have a timer.
http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=magnum550
http://www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=53581
http://www.midweststereo.com/catalog/martin-fog/MARMAGNUM550/

The next bigger model (the Martin Magnum 800) has a 750 watt heater, adds a timer and output control so you can adjust the level of fog output (very cool) for $229.00 (with free shipping). Also you can add a optional DMX module for sophisticated remote control capabilities should you require it.
http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=technofog
http://www.directproaudio.com/product.cfm?directid=56560

Yes you can get a inexpensive 400 watt fogger at Wallyworld (Walmart) for under $20 (when on sale).... but the ones I've seen sound like a steam locomotive coming down the track. You can also add a optional timer remote for a additional $25.... but it's still loud, has no removable fluid tank, and it spits and sputters while making fog.

Grave Digger
:xbones:


----------



## Lunatic

Daphne said:


> When this fogger dies (cross your fingers it isn't soon!), I think I'll get a Martin. If I require a second big fogger I will definitley check them out. I know I will need around a 400W fogger for the witches cauldron next year so I'll see what they have. A Martin fogger may be overkill for something like that but my understanding is the cheap ones last a season and that's it. Thanks so much everyone![/QUOTE
> 
> Daphne,
> 
> As far as Martin's options for foggers with timers, the Martin Magnum 800
> (750 watt) is the smallest they offer with a timer, which is the one I have. The smaller version doesn't have a timer and that is absolutely needed. I think cheapos have their place in smaller scenes like the caldron and i don't think they'll be squashed by the professional unit's. Especially for the annual user. We have chillers and that is the biggest piece of the puzzle.
> 
> Also, another thing to consider about any fogger is how long will it run before cycling and can it continually fog. I'm sure under the right circumstances a constant fog is warranted, but I like to see them cycle because with every wave of fog creates a new dramatic atmosphere. The fog didn't roll the same direction all of the time for me so each wave is a little different.
> 
> You have some interesting thoughts about the outlet. It would appear to me that utilizing that plastic shirt box might be the answer. Why not try the plastic box attached to the outlet with a hole on the cooler end, and the opposite end totally open to spread the fog wider. Then add a short bag over the box with the bag a few inches longer than the box so it closes a little at the opening. The box would hold the bag open so the condensed water doesn't weigh it down and choke itself off. The bag will still be slightly closed at the end for some pressure. You could slit the bag at the bottom slightly to drain any standing water. That's a good idea to try for myself, thanks. I'm pretty much done for the year but will look into it for next year. I think the chillers built here are good performers and perhaps the only tweaking that is needed is the correct outlet configuration, like the box and plastic bag method.
> 
> Ya know, I didn't drain my 60 qt igloo cubes all night on Halloween and they still performed the same straight through. The outlet is low enough where I think the water just comes out. A hole in the very bottom would work fine though. Oh, and what I did to clean the chillers to rid them from the sticky glycol was to bring them to the car wash and use high pressure sudsy soap and I cleaned all of the pvc, too. Now they can be stored clean and ready for next use.
> 
> If I decide one day I want to go higher in fog power I would probably build a DIY Vortex Pro inspired trash can. However, I must say that I'm pretty impressed with my two 60 qt. cubes running FX/700 watters on top. It was plenty enough to fill two parts of the yard. I didn't even need them near each other.


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## CountZero

*More Power..*

As silly as it sounds, I've been browsing for a bigger fogger. (I have a 1000W MBT, and a 1700W Chauvet). I like both of my foggers, and they both worked really well for Halloween, but I think I'd like continuous output as well. I suppose I'm just a "more power" kinda guy.  I've seen all the discussions on the Martin and the VEI foggers, and they both look pretty nice. Neither one of them seems to really grab my attention though. The Martin is nice, but its specs are so close to my Chauvet, I'm not sure I'd be gaining anything by moving to a Martin. And I'm just having a hard time getting excited about the specs on the VEI's. (Not that they aren't nice foggers, They just don't seem to have much different from the ones I have currently)

I think I've finally found my dream fogger though..

Has anyone else run across the CITC Fogmax? 30,000 CFM of output using a 1500W heater. This thing is a monster. It will do 100% output for 30 MINUTES straight. And according to the manufacturer, if you back the control down to 80% output it will run continuously. Even at a full 100% output, it only needs a rest period of 3 minutes to produce fog again. (they say that if you wait for 10 minutes, you can fog for another 30 minutes at 100%) Looks to be around $650 which would put it a little higher than the Martin 2000. But based on its specs, I'd think it would be pretty amazing to have. 80% of 30,000 CFM is about 24,000 CFM, which is the same output as the Martin 2000. And to have that much fog running nonstop. My Chauvet is rated at 20,000 cfm, and that is a HUGE amount of fog. 

If I decide to spring for one of these bad boys, I may go ahead and sell one or both of my current foggers to help defray the cost. So there may be an opportunity for someone here to upgrade as well. 

CountZ


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## navdog

Anyone tried fashioning a wide 10"+ or so "nozzle" out of thin sheet metal with some tin snips to the outlet pipe to spread the fog? Would take care of the condensation problem that the plastic bags seem to create. You could even place some fins in it to direct the fog laterally. No need to have a four sided design, just a "lid" to the outlet.


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## Long_Tom

I was thinking of doing the garbage bag trick, but propping the wide end open with a low arch of some stiff wire. (Haven't tried it yet. Had to get Halloween put away properly yesterday. Now just the foggers and chillers are left out to play with.)


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## Fright Zone

I refuse to let this thread die! LOL

*IGLOO ICE CUBE COOLERS IN-SEASON*
Wal-Mart is stocked up on Igloo Ice Cube coolers since they're in-season for Summer. They have the 48 qt Igloo Cubes and the 60 qt Igloo Cube rollers in both the flat lid and curved lid design. They sell them in blue and silverish grey (but you'd be painting them with Krylon Fusion Ultra Flat Camo black spray paint).

*2006 YARD HAUNT CHILLER NOTES*
I used the 48 qt Igloo Cube to build my Vortex-style chiller for last year's Yard Haunt. I bought a 60 qt Igloo Cube with the flat lid on sale after Halloween last year. I built the ice tray for it but haven't drilled the holes for the PVC. If I had my choice I'd drill holes for 3" PVC or ABS pipes in the 60 qt cooler. But practically speaking I'd have to buy a new hole saw so I might stick with the 2" dia PVC pipes that I put on the 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller.

I only have the 400W Gemmy foggers. It's not in the budget yet to step up to a 700W Martin Magnum which I would like to try with the 60 qt Igloo.

For Yard Haunt 2006 I used the Vortex-inspired 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller hooked up to a 16" plastic cauldron to create thick lingering, rolling fog out of the cauldron (supplemented with a Mini Mister to pick up the slack when the fogger was reheating). I used the non-Vortex inspired trash can style chiller with 4" dia x 16 ft of aluminum drier duct inside and a 39 gal Hefty Lawn & Leaf bag on the outlet for slow-moving graveyard fog.

At one point a ToT tried to hide behind a tombstone and scare their friends and in the process removed the trash bag from the outlet of the chiller. The fog was still thick and lingering but did not hug the ground nearly as much as when the trash bag was on the outlet.

I should also note it rained all day on Halloween up until ToT. So the ground was wet. The chilled fog out of the trash can chiller with the trash bag on the outlet definitely clung to the ground and lingered more because of the wet grass.

It does seem that the 90 degree sweep PVC does do the trick inside the Vortex-style chiller.

I used a 1/3 ice chamber and 2/3 expansion chamber. I used refrigerator freezer ice cubes that don't stick together nearly as much as store bought bagged ice cubes do inside the 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller. I think it was approx 4-5 lbs of ice. The ice was about 1-1/2 - 2" thick 1" below the top ofthe 90 degree pipe and the top of the 90 degree pipe was 1-3/8" from the closed lid.

I used store-bought bags ice for filling the trash can chiller. I think it was 15-20 lbs. It makes noise inside of the trash can as it starts to melt and fall through the can as the night goes on.

*RECENT CHILLER TESTING*
Today in April, I tested the trash bag on the outlet of the 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller on my porch. It was raining so no one was out and about wondering what I was doing. I found out that I needed to cut the trash bag's end off (in half straight across) to get it to work with that chiller. There seems to be less force of fog coming out of the reverse inlet set-up of the 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller compared to the 4" dia trash can chiller last Halloween.

I used a double wye adapter on the inlet of the 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller to create more air convection than the single wye adapter could create. I think the use of a wye adapter with the fogger nozzle right up against it helps outdoors because the wind can not disturb the flow of fog from the fogger nozzle to the chiller like it can when a 3" gap is used instead.

One other note on the 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller is that there is a lot of fog backwash out of the inlet after the fogger shuts off when using the PVC pipe that goes to the lower expansion chamber compared to using the PVC pipe 90 degree bend that goes to the top inside the chiller as the inlet.

*CONCLUSION*
Next year I plan to add the 60 qt chiller for graveyard fog on the other side of the yard to compare it to the trash can chiller.

As it stands I was pleased with the fogging cauldron effect from the 400W Gemmy to the Vortex-style 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller AND using the 26 gallon trash can chiller with the trash bag on the outlet (or even without it) for graveyard fog.

I have no problem recommending either one. Now I just wish I had a bigger fogger that didn't reaheat as often.


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## Troy

Good write up, I used the Vortex style myself (1/3 ice, 2/3 expansion) I started with a 400 watt and did updrage to a 700 watt machine and it made a large difference. The 400 watt did a nice job but was simply amazed at what the 700 watt did. Never in my dreams did I think I'd have that much ground fog.


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## Fright Zone

That's good to know. Now I really want a 700W LOL. In due time. 

Some questions come to mind to compare notes:

What model was your 700W fogger: The Martin Magnum or something else?

What size Igloo Ice Cube Cooler chiller did you use: The 48 qt or 60 qt did you use something else?

How large was the diameter of your PVC inlet & outlet pipes: 2" or 3"?

Did you use the PVC hole that has the 90 degree bend as the inlet or the outlet?


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## Troy

I can't remember the brand of Fogger, it wasn't one of the high priced ones though...I used a 48 qt Igloo, the PVC was 2" inlet & outlet. I used the 90 deg. bend on the Inlet, so in other words the fogger was at the bottom of the cooler and the fog traveled through the 90 deg. to the top 1/3 of the Cooler. 

As I'm sure you probably know you need to keep the Fogger Outlet nozzle about 2" from the Cooler Inlet pipe, this allows cool air to start to mix right away.


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## Fright Zone

That's how I set my 48 qt Igloo up using the 90 degree bend to within 1-1/2" of the closed lid as the inlet. The fog hits the lid and gets forced down through the ice tray and into the 2/3 lower expansion area and out the straight PVC pipe at the bottom of the chiller.

On Halloween I used a 3" gap between the fogger nozzle centered towards the inlet pipe for air convection. I found out even a slight wind would disrupt the fog within that 3" gap from the low wattage 400W fogger.

So yesterday I tested a single PVC Wye adapter and a Double Wye adapter screwed into a female fitting I had put on the inlet. The double wye worked fine to produce enough air convection and velocity for fog expansion in the cooler. With this set-up I can put the fogger nozzle right up against the double Wye and the wind won't disrupt it going into the chiller. The single Wye didn't seem to work well enough. The fog didn't come out of the chiller as well.

I also tried the double Wye on the straight PVC pipe into the lower fog expansion chamber to compare results. As with every test I've done using that pipe as the inlet, it produces a lot of thick fog but it seems to rise quicker, dissipate faster, leak through the lid a bit and there's backwash towards the fogger when it's off, compared to using the 90 degree pipe as the inlet.

I had to prop up the fogger to get the nozzle in line with the 90 degree pipe when it was used as the inlet because I followed the photos of the Vortex Fusion when I built it. That pipe is the intended outlet on the Vortex. I don't know why that hole is actually higher up on the Vortex than the other hole. But when I get around to cutting holes in the 60 qt Igloo I'm going to make both of them the height of what the lower hole is on the 48 qt to line up with the fogger nozzle. The only problem is that if I use a different fogger, all foggers measure differently, so there will always be a need to put pieces of wood or something underneath the fogger or chiller to get them to line up. But at least I won't have to use a Mini Mister box and a DVD spindle just to try and get the fogger at the correct height. I had also put my fogger inside a black waste basket to protect it outdoors on Halloween so I'd take that measurement into account when drilling the holes in the cooler.

I used P-seal weather stripping on Halloween to seal underneath the closed lid that helped. Not perfect but useful.

I posted some photos on photobucket to illustrate what I'm talking about.

I posted some other photos of the Fog Chiller Construction pictures by bpesti - Photobucket Incomplete since I didn't photograph everything as I was building it but you get the idea.

I posted some more showing various Fog Chiller Tests pictures by bpesti - Photobucket last year and yesterday.


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## gmacted

I'm glad you brought this thread "back to life". I had forgotten about it. I'd like to share a few of my observations from Halloween 2006. In 2005 I had a 90 degree bend on my chiller, but I did not extend a PVC pipe through the ice wall, but rather stopped it at the wire mesh. It worked very well for me in 2005. For 2006, I cut a hole in the wire mesh and ran some PVC to within a couple of inches from the top of the cooler so that the fog would be forced to the top of the cooler. I don't think the chiller was as effective as it was in 2005 so I have decided to go back to the original design for 2007. I wish I had a video, but unfortunately I do not.

I'd love to hear from others who built a Vortex type design and what worked best for them.


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## Fright Zone

I'm glad you posted your results. I was wondering how things went. I might guess that the 90 degree bend may not have worked in your case because as I recall you were using a 120 qt or 150 qt cooler that's more of a traditional horizontal rectangular shaped cooler as opposed to the Igloo Ice Cube Coolers which are more square and closer to the Vertical shapes Vortex plastic pails? You were also using a very strong 1200 W constant fogger maybe that's why it works well underneath the ice tray because it has enough force on its own to shoot fog through the ice tray?


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## Revenant

This thread is like Jason! :voorhees: 

It seems most of you folk have been using 700-1200 watt foggers, and those igloo coolers are a popular choice for your chamber... but what about those little $20 400-watt jobbies? Would a simple 5-gal bucket suffice for them, or do they put out the same volume of fog with the only difference being the length of the re-warm time between shots?


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## Fright Zone

Yeah, we needed to revisit this thread because no one posted their results after their 2006 Yard Haunts. I think we were all burnt out. Now is a good time to compare notes. Seeing the Igloo coolers in stock in the stores made me think about it. Then I went back and watched the DVD-R I made of my yard yaunt to revisit how my fog chillers did.

Like I mentioned before I used two $20 Gemmy 400 W foggers (from Wal-Mart the kind you're asking about). One with the 48 qt Igloo and one with the trash can chiller.

You can see my 48 qt Igloo Cube chiller test results photos from a few posts ago.

Like Troy mentioned the difference between 400 W and 700 W foggers is a lot of fog in addition to less down time reheating. Troy can tell us specifically but it's got to be about twice the volume of fog as the 400 W if not more not to mention at a higher velocity.

Here's a link to a video of a 750 W Martin Magnum You can see how much fog it pumps out in a short time. The video is indoors with no chiller but you get the idea why I'd want one ; )

Igloo also now makes a small 16 qt cooler  that fits in the floor in front of a car seat. It's a little smaller than a 5 gallon bucket.

I used my 400 W and 48 qt Igloo for a fogging cauldron. I didn't use it for graveyard fog.

A 400 W would be sufficient for a 5 gallon bucket or the 48 qt Igloo cooler. But because there would logically be less ice and a smaller fog expansion chamber in a 5 gallon bucket don't expect to get huge amounts of low lying fog out of it. It might fit the bill for your needs. It's what you're expectations are. It's cheap enough to experiment with.

From all the tests I've done, seen and read about, if you want lots of chilled fog you use the largest chiller you can make with the most ice you can fit in it with the highest wattage fogger you can afford. But the 400 W with small chillers can do a decent job. It will fill about a 10 to 15 ft area with chilled fog before the fog starts to really slow down and dissipate.


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## Revenant

Fright Zone said:


> From all the tests I've done, seen and read about, if you want lots of chilled fog you use the largest chiller you can make with the most ice you can fit in it with the highest wattage fogger you can afford.


Ah yes, the ToolMan Tim Taylor approach!
MORE POWER!!.... _Augh, augh, augh, augh..._


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## Fright Zone

I hardly ever watched "Home Improvement". I actually remember "Tool Time" more instead of the real show. But their catch phrase is one thing I remember. Funny enough I was thinking of it the other day mentally walking thru last year's yard haunt wondering what effect a larger fogger and chiller would have on next year's yard haunt. That's exactly what I thought of: "ugh ugh ugh *FOG!* *FOG!*" must have fog. lots of fog. fog good. fog chiller good. ugh ugh.


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## Otaku

Comparing notes is good! I used a Chauvet 1250 with a modified FOTR chiller, and a modified GotFog design with a Lite/FX 700 watt. The FOTR mod included the 90° inlet and fog expanding before going through the ice layer. It worked well, but I plan to increase the pipe ID from 2" to at least 3" this year and increase the "on" time.
The mod to the GotFog chiller was the surprising thing, though. I saw the modification in one of the posts in this thread (I think), and tried it with the 700 watt fogger. Amazing results, and the mod was very easy to do. I'll post some pix next week.


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## Fright Zone

That's great. Yes I'd like to see photos of other haunter's chiller set-ups, results with foggers if possible. The problem on Halloween was there was so much going on I took random video but not photos so that's why mine are test photos on a cramped covered porch.

Another good thing to compare notes on is: How did people cut the inlet and outlet holes in their chillers?

I used a $13 2-3/8" Ridgid hole saw from Home Depot on a $14 3/8" mandrel to drill two holes for 2" dia PVC and it was effective but I only used it that one time.

gotgfog.com instructions note you can make a 4" dia hole to fit a 3" PVC or ABS fitting by drawing the hole with a compass then cutting it out with a jigsaw if you have one, instead of buying an expensive 4" hole saw. Has anyone tried the jigsaw technique or does everyone use the hole saw I'd worry the jigsaw would be difficult to get a nice round hole but a 4" hole is a pretty big diameter and should be easier. I guess I could practice on a peice of wood.


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## Otaku

I used a jab saw. Drilled a 1/2" hole in the center, inserted the blade and cut out a circle. It's not nearly as clean a cut as a hole saw, but the caulking fills the gaps and supports the tubes.
The guy who posted the GotFog mod also had good video links in the post. I wish I could remember if the post was here or at Halloween Forum - there was a similar thread over there around the same time last year.


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## Fright Zone

The only thing I can recall about the Got fog around here was that someone was suggesting to put the fogger on top of the lid like they do but other than that I don't recall a modification so maybe it was on the other forum. I stopped posting there becasue of technical issues and too much to read between both.

I'm not familiar with a jab saw. I googled it and came up empty but I'll ask around maybe a relative has one.

Did your 700 W fogger trip any breakers? Maybe I read somewhere it was 1000W and above can do that if you have too much stuff plugged in.


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## krypt

I think a jab saw is similar to a drywall saw......Maybe even a coping saw would work if no hole saw is present........i have carved with a utility knife before but be very careful.


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## Otaku

A jab saw looks kind of like a hacksaw blade with a pistol-grip handle on one end. The blade tapers a bit toward the handle. The GotFog mod I saw was a solid baffle in the center of the screen tube, with rubber sheeting wrapped halfway around the bottom of the tube on the inlet side. The outlet side had the rubber sheeting wrapped around the top half of the screen tube. The fog path would go from the top of the screen tube, through the ice, over to the other side of the screen tube, through the ice again, and out through the bottom of the tube. It worked very well, much better than the original GotFog design, but you had to keep putting ice on the top of the inlet side as it melted faster. I'll get a pic up next week.


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## Fright Zone

I know from your descriptions which saw you guys are talking about now. Looking back in this thread it looked like airscape's 60 qt Igloo worked just fine with 2" PVC and a 1200 W fogger and a small bag on a short run of pipe on the outlet. So I guess I'll use 2" on my 60 qt.






EDIT

@ gmacted - Questions I thought of for your 120 qt version:

A) In 2005, when you had the 90 degree inlet right up against your hardware mesh ice tray, didn't the ice melt down into that pipe and then get to the fogger which was pressed up against the pseudo venturi Wye adapter?

B) How often did you have to fill fog juice into the VEI-950 constant fogger, is it a juice hog?


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## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> I know from your descriptions which saw you guys are talking about now. Looking back in this thread it looked like airscape's 60 qt Igloo worked just fine with 2" PVC and a 1200 W fogger and a small bag on a short run of pipe on the outlet. So I guess I'll use 2" on my 60 qt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT
> 
> @ gmacted - Questions I thought of for your 120 qt version:
> 
> A) In 2005, when you had the 90 degree inlet right up against your hardware mesh ice tray, didn't the ice melt down into that pipe and then get to the fogger which was pressed up against the pseudo venturi Wye adapter?
> 
> B) How often did you have to fill fog juice into the VEI-950 constant fogger, is it a juice hog?


a) That's an interesting question (One I never thought of). No water came back to the fogger at all. When I did finally open the cooler, the next night, there was a huge hole formed in the ice from where the fog was injected into the ice cavity. This was obviously a result of the hot fog coming in instant contact with the ice. This may have worked to my advantge. I'm not sure though.
Another thought. I did not use the pseudo venturi Wye adapter last year, but like I said I am planning on going back to the original configuration this year because I liked the results much better.

b) The VEI-950 has a 5 liter (1.32 gallon) reserve. I never had to refill it and used it for a good part of the night. I was able to turn it off when there were lulls. If I remember correctly, I still had a little less than half a tank left when I emptied it. I plan on buying the remote control for it this year. This should also make it more efficient.


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## Fright Zone

That makes sense since it's 1300 W constant it would burn a hole right through. Was that part of the cooler lid affected?

The remote timer description I've always seen "The V-950 Super Fogger features a wired timer that will allow you to set the time between fog bursts (10 seconds to 5 minutes) and the duration of fog output (1 to 12 second bursts)" didn't come with your VEI-950 when you bought it? I've not seen one in person just photos it always looked like the remote timer came with it. That timer description I always see makes it sound like it's not really constantly shooting out fog. I've seen 4400W foggers in amusement parks on Halloween that really do look like they never shut off.

Did you happen to guage in feet how far out the chilled fog went out from the chilelr out into your yard on average?

Come to think of it did you still have that video of your 2005 chiller working? I went back and the link was broken (understandably since it was 2 years ago).


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## Frighteners Entertainment

The 950 will continually dispense fog with very minimal reheating, if you don't set it on the highest setting.


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## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> That makes sense since it's 1300 W constant it would burn a hole right through. Was that part of the cooler lid affected?
> 
> The remote timer description I've always seen "The V-950 Super Fogger features a wired timer that will allow you to set the time between fog bursts (10 seconds to 5 minutes) and the duration of fog output (1 to 12 second bursts)" didn't come with your VEI-950 when you bought it? I've not seen one in person just photos it always looked like the remote timer came with it. That timer description I always see makes it sound like it's not really constantly shooting out fog. I've seen 4400W foggers in amusement parks on Halloween that really do look like they never shut off.
> 
> Did you happen to guage in feet how far out the chilled fog went out from the chilelr out into your yard on average?
> 
> Come to think of it did you still have that video of your 2005 chiller working? I went back and the link was broken (understandably since it was 2 years ago).


The hot fog caused no damage to the lid or the cooler. The fogger can pump out some serious continous fog however.

The VEI V-950 comes with a 32 foot wired remote control. You can buy a wireless remote control that will allow you to control the fogger up to 50 feet away. That is the remote control I plan on buying so I can control the fogger wirelessly.

The fog rolled out approximately 20-30 feet when the wind wasn't blowing. When there was a breeze, the fog would move like a big sheet. I did have to take down my 2005 video to make room on my web space. I would like to make a better web site but I haven't found any good free software yet. Any suggestions?


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## Fright Zone

That info helps. 32 ft man that's long! What always confused me about the wireless remote just looking at the product photo is how it operates. The buttons don't look anything like the regular wired remote. Is the whole idea of a wireless that you either turn the fogger on or off or hold down a button to control a burst duration? So you have control over when the fog rolls out but the trade off is you have to attend to the buttons?

The catch-22 is with all this knowledge I'd really want to make some serious fog but the reality is I better not! The yard is just too small and the other yard I could do it in is very narrow and next to a major street. I wouldn't want to get a fogger where the cops issue a safety citation because my fog rolled out into traffic ; )

I should probably just step up to 700 W so I have a fogger that doesn't shut off as often as a 400 W and produces more fog but not too much.

I've seen a hundred 1400 W and a few 4400 W constant LeMaitre foggers make an amusement park look like it was on fire.

I remember from your 2005 video your yard was nice and big so you could actually build a large chiller and have some fun with it and not worry about cops or neighbors.


Re: video I guess youtube.com or photobucket.com is the best free way.

After all this time I did like going back and seeing airscapes youtube videos of his set-up and results. That makes the American DJ 1200 W HD fogger 2" PVC and a 60 qt Igloo look like an effective way to do it.


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## Otaku

Here are some pix of the modification to a GotFog chiller that I made last year. The cooler is too small to use for a FOTR/Vortex mod. I found this modification in a thread either here or at HalloweenForum, but I don't know who the originator was. In any case, it works really well. I used 1/8" rubber sheeting and cable ties for the shields, and a circle of plastic cut from a Nestles Quik lid. I cut the wire tube about halfway around, slid in the circle and hot glued it in place. The longer shielded portion is the inlet side.

http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3709
http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3708
http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3707


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## Fright Zone

(page 53 - we'll make it to the century mark by Halloween ; ) 

That's close to what I pictured based on your previous description except for the coffeee can lid. Is the rubber sheeting halfway around the outlet portion of the hardware cloth ie. the part that we can't see from the top view and would be impossible to photograph?

It looks a little tricky to build. But then again Igloo Coolers aren't the most straightfoward symmetrical things to mesaure ice trays and pipes for either. By far the easiest to put together is the trash can chiller with drier duct. But that's not an interesting DIY haunter challenge either LOL

What wattage fogger did you use 700 or 1000 W?


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## Otaku

Yes, the sheeting goes halfway around on the outlet side, too. I used a Lite/FX 700 watt fogger with this chiller, with real good results. The mod took only 20 mins. and is easier to do than it looks. I thought that the hot fog might melt the hot glue bonds, but everything held up fine.


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## Fright Zone

That's right I remember you said the Lite FX 700W before. Approximately how far out did the fog roll before it dissapated? Since my littel 400W Gemmy was about 10 ft or so and gmacted's 1300W VEI-950 constant fogger was 20-30 ft I'm guessing the 700 W would be about 20 ft on average?

I noticed you're in California and FWIW hauntyourhome.com mentions "Fog Chiller GotFog.com - Works only in warm night climate." But the modification you show basically seems to make it more like the Vortex style so the fog has to spend more time inside the cooler flash freezing in the ice. But there's no real fog expansion chamber in the gotfog or modified design is there?


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## Otaku

You're correct, there is no expansion chamber in this design. I placed the fog machine outlet about 3" from the inlet port of the chiller. I got a pool about 20 - 25 feet across of cold, thick fog from the chiller; at that point it rose to about 1 foot and dissipated. I think the advantages this design has is that the fog spends more time in the ice, and it's an easy mod that one can make that will improve the performance of a GotFog chiller. I plan to continue using it for this year.


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## Fright Zone

That's good!


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## zeenon

For those that have build one of these out of a kitty litter container. Can you post the height of the container? 

Way way back...NickG...had some great pictures of the one he built, but I've never seen a litter container in the stores that high. My 40lb container is 17x9x11.

Z


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## Moon Dog

Otaku said:


> I used 1/8" rubber sheeting and cable ties for the shields, and a circle of plastic cut from a Nestles Quik lid. I cut the wire tube about halfway around, slid in the circle and hot glued it in place.


 What did you do to the lid? Punch a lot of little holes through it? One hole?

Please explain...

Thanks!

Scott


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## Revenant

Okay, this has been bugging me since I first read this Voorhees thread back in February.

Much earlier on, several people made references to the old Dryer Hose Inna Trashcan design, saying that fog would be lost due to condensation in all that convoluted tubing. But the Vortex setup has the hot glycol fog coming into *direct* contact with... not just wafting across, but _filtering through_... a thick layer of wet melting ice. That's a lot of surface area of cooling surface, yes, but its a lot of surface area of water for this water-based fog to filter through. There has to be a helluva lotta fog getting dissolved into the wastewater.

Not that I'm trying to dis the design... the videos speak for themselves, and any chiller system is going to lose fog to condensation no matter what anyway. And it looks like an extremely cost-effective way to build a small chiller without spending a fortune on copper tubing etc.... but wouldn't tubing-based designs that chill without filtering through wet ice have a thicker fog output? I've never built one so I have no experience to draw on but logic keeps nagging me about it.


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## slightlymad

In theory the tube based design would be best. However the votex packs almost the same bang for less buck. Any cooling model will have some lose of fog due to heat transfer.


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## Otaku

Moon Dog said:


> What did you do to the lid? Punch a lot of little holes through it? One hole?
> 
> Please explain...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Scott


There are no holes in the lid. It acts as a barrier, directing the fog up through the surrounding ice and preventing the straight-thru path that the original GotFog design uses. The fog is forced upward then back down through the ice to the exit opening.


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## Lunatic

*Wow! You guys are still at it!*

Man, I looked at this discussion thread months ago and found no further responses but now I see there is still interest. Good for you guys for keeping it alive!

But seriously, I posted some positive results with my 60 qt igloo cube, reverse vortex design with 700 watt F/X foggers on top of the lid. It worked like a charm and I received alot of praise from the kids and adults. I did use ice cubes from an ice house which are more uniform resulting in less clogging. I used 1/3 expansion chamber at the bottom with about 25 pounds of ice on top till about 1" from inside lid.

The ice lasted all night long with no clogging. I had two 60 qt cubes in two different areas and they performed very well. I'm in the boston area and it can be cold on Halloween but this past year was in the 60's. Lucky for me!

FYI- I bought an 800 watt Martin but never used it last year but I will this year. To be honest, the unit I got was scratched had finger prints all over it and the nozzle shot upwards. I sent it back for an exchange and got nothing but grief from Martin. They sent me back the same unit that they fixed and it had a huge gouge in the timer remote. I was extremely disappointed in their customer service! I'm not sure if I would buy another expensive Martin because of the poor service.

One last thing, I tried to attach some pix to my last reply months ago but experienced technical difficulties in doing so. So I appologize for not showing more. I can't seem to add any more pix to this thread.


----------



## Fright Zone

That's a good report. Yeah we talked a lot about how to build one but in our post-Halloween depression or fatigue or something we didn't post our Halloween chiller results until recently LOL.

I have a 60qt I want to try and am debating on a 700W or larger fogger so that's good to know it works. But did your 700W fogger turn off very much to reheat? (Or is it just these small 400W's that act that bad)


----------



## Daphne

Wow! I can't believe this is still ongoing! Cool!

I never made or posted pictures of my set-up either. After finishing the chiller and getting everything worked out (as much as possible in between handing out candy), I was completely burnt out. FWIW, I had the 60 qt Igloo cube (with plastic bag on end) and a VEI 930T fogger. Until the clog and bag filling with water, it was amazing!!! I looked at all the chiller options heavily for weeks and can absolutely recommend the Vortex style design, just WEAR GLOVES while working with the mesh! Oh, and finish it weeks BEFORE Halloween, not just before dark! What a fiasco...

It is refreshing to know I am not the only one starting to think about this already! The big question is at what point can one reasonably pull all the new stuff from the after Halloween sales last year to start working out the design plan without one's family committing them?

Lunatic, your post was quite interesting. While I am thrilled with my VEI fogger, I have toyed with the idea of adding a Martin 800. It is SO overkill to consider it for the witch's cauldron I want to build this year http://64.226.23.133/woodycarr/scarefx/project_witch.html but that is me, the Queen of Overkill. I do still wonder if I could get a decent effect with just a couple misters?

Anyway, I had almost resolved to get it anyway (since I can't get a Terror by Design webber now that they are out of business), build another chiller and just pump the majority of the fog around the area beside the cemetary. This is where the new stuff will go and I could just bleed off a little to feed the cauldron. That is disconcerting to hear that regarding the customer service though. If there are 3 million perfect ones made and one defective one, I am ALWAYS the one that buys the bad one...

Anyone else experience this type of problem?


----------



## oct31st

Hi guys,

I am new and totally in awe of all your wonderful ideas and thoughts. I myself love Halloween massivly. I have browsed before and just spent two hours browsing this thread on low lying fog. Unfor after two years of use I noticed the Got Fog cooler sucks hardcore. I am a bit lost going through all these threads.

I could use some directions as to I saw the size of the buckets being used, like 5 gallon or so? The wire mesh, but I could really use a parts list and or directed to the proper page for that. Also some photos would be great, I am 22...so my dad is going to be helping me with this since I suck at building stuff basically LOL. So I am trying to figure out, when you put the mesh towards the top of the bucket, do you fill the top part with ice (on top of the mesh that is?) and than the fog machine goes into the bottom pvc, rises through the ice and out the pipe? This is in regards to the "vortex" idea that everyone seemed to get good results with. I also saw the igloo blue cooler I believe and alot if not all the images were dead..dead. I just need some explainations as to where the fog machine goes...etc. Something like a diagram of how to build it also? I have a general idea but I am confused as to specifics.


----------



## Otaku

Hey, Adam, welcome to the forum. Be sure to drop in the Welcome Room and introduce yourself.

Don't give up on your GotFog yet. I saw an interesting mod to the design last season (wish I could remember who posted it) and tried it on my GotFog chiller. It worked very well using a Lite/FX 700 watt fogger. Big improvement over the original design. Here's some pics of the modification.

http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3709
http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3708
http://halloweengallery.com/displayimage.php?pos=-3707

Try it out if you still have your GotFog box.


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## oct31st

what was added that is different? I see something different on the left of the mesh but I am not sure what that is.


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## Otaku

It's a sheet of rubber about 1/8" thick. It reaches halfway around the wire mesh tube and forces the fog upward through the ice. The longer section is the inlet side. The outlet side has the sheet covering the upper half of the mesh tube so the fog has to go through the ice in the bottom of the cooler to get out. The sheets are held on with zip ties. There's a coffee can lid separating the two sections, held in place by hot glue. I cut the wire mesh along the upper portion and inserted the plastic disk. The fog can no longer go straight through the chiller; it has to take a more tortuous path through the ice, first up through the ice then back down to the outlet. It made a serious difference in the performance of the chiller. I had built a FOTR/Vortex chiller and was planning on retiring the GotFog unit until I tried this design.


----------



## Lunatic

*Hi folks!*

I've been thinking about this thread and thought I'd check it today. I'm glad I did, sorry for the delay. It's good to see there are still some friends out there still listening!

Anyway...

What's up fright Zone!?
My 700 watt Lite/FX machines do cycle every minute or so. But that is ok with me because the fog rolls around a bit while the units are reheating. I wasn't disappointed with the performance. I'm not sure if it's necessary to go any larger for a 60 quart cube. I can only think that going with a higher wattage and no cycling would use up a lot more ice and fog fluid. No big deal though. I will try my Martin 800 this year for comparison. Overall, I think the 700 watters do quite well and they're cheap. I find them for about 20-25 bucks in the Bostin area.

Hi Daphne!
The witch and caldron effect is very cool. I'd love to build one, too! Looking for a house currently so my time will be limited this year. As far as misters, I haven't seen any that impress me for use outdoors. But then again I'm fairly new at the fog thing. As far as Martin's customers service, I totally understand about one bad seed but their supplier wasn't that nice when I asked to exchange it... and darn it, i'm a nice guy!

One last thing about my 60 quart cubes. After all of the outlet variations I tested, Halloween night I simply used a 45 angle piece of PVC to get it around the tree it was hidden behind. It was shadowed by the tree and wasn't that noticeable since my display was lit from the front. I'm going to continue using them in the same fashion this year...I think. I'm just going to use them in different scenes.


----------



## Fright Zone

Thanks for clarifying the 700W reheating time and your other Halloween night notes. 

If I could afford it by Halloween I'm going to get a VEI or American DJ 1000W or better so I have fog on demand. Reheat time just drives me up the wall. Especially in a short 2-hour ToT window. But I may just set two 400W Gemmy's to different intervals close to one another so hopefully when one is one is reheating the other one goes to work. That's the only thing about inexpensive but capable proucts. You don't have full control over the effect. 

I tested a Lightning FX, tombstone and halogen lamp set-up with the 400W Gemmy this Sat at midnight. It pumped out some serious fog and even rolled over the roof of the house and into the street lamp. It literally looked like a foggy night and not anything fake or manufactured even at a small 400 watts. So maybe higher wattage isn't the best idea lest people call the fire dept or cops!

I didn't use my fog chillers for the test. But chilling the fog controls it more than right out of the fogger for anyone reading and wondering. It's not just for low-lying graveyard fog effects. 

I also picked up a trick from an amusement park that worked. I pointed the fogger toward the back side of a large tombstone 6" away from it (They use 1400-4400W LeMaitre foggers and black tarp border fences). The idea is that it shoots the fog to where it hits something and collects so the wind doesn't have it's way with the fog compared to straight out of the nozzle. The fog bank eventually goes up where the wind takes over. But you get a thicker fog effect to start out with that doesn't get easily destroyed by wind. So next test I would try with my fog chillers to see it linger even more.

Btw Lunatic, if I were you I'd sign up for the free photobucket.com account or something similar and post photos there and put a link in the thread. It'd be nice to see how the 60qt Igloos worked out in pictures.


----------



## Daphne

Hey Lunatic! In terms of the misters, I do have one that came in a resin skull head that works pretty well and I assume they are all fairly comparable. Granted, it turns different colors which I am not thrilled with but the mister effect is cool. Everything in the vicinity gets damp though so it is better outside in my opinion. Granted, it is not an "in your face" effect, it is somewhat subtle but my concern with a big fogger bleeding off to feed the cauldron is that it could look like a locomotive is trapped in there! The other issue of attempting a mister in water combined with electronics stirring the cauldron could become somewhat problematic. Even in that big steroid cauldron, there is only so much room.

Putting a 45 on the end of the tube seems too easy ha, ha. Things are never that simple around here! Definitely something to test though.

Due to work and time constraints, I have been oscillating between either the witch/cauldron and flying crank ghost... I want both but am not sure I will have time (or skill ha, ha) to build both. Going off-topic for a sec here... Someone sells a FCG full kit and an "everything but the ghost" kit but I can't remember who it was. Uggg... Someone help me out here with a link. Probably wouldn't work anyway, I want her out in the yard in a frame I can fold or take back apart for storage. 

Anyway, with all the additional "stuff" I purchased last year and the new items I have convinced myself I need, I may need another big fogger anyway... Still fighting the Martin vs. VEI thing though... Has anyone had to deal with issues/customer service with their VEI? Mine isn't a year old yet and other than a brief clog (keep a needle handy on Halloween night), it worked flawlessly.

Otaku, thanks for the tips on the Gotfog design. Something removed the drain cap on an old chest cooler (can you say rambunctious German shepherd?) so I have a useless cooler. I may try the alternate design out on it this year. As soon as I buy ANOTHER fogger first though ha, ha.

Frightzone, thanks for the great tip. I'd think having the fogger shoot right at a big tombstone would force the fog up as much as out but I haven't tried it so I could certainly be wrong (that happens a lot). Interesting idea though, I'll have to give that a shot. My fogger was under a big weeping juniper (that is positioned absolutely perfectly for the graveyard) and the tube feeding the plastic bag only worked for a short time so I have to revisit that.


----------



## Otaku

Daphne, is this the FCG you're thinking of?

http://www.theironkingdom.com/Navigation/Animation/Motorized_Props/Phantom_Flyer/index.html

I have one of these and I love it! Very quiet, very reliable. No problems for the past 4 years, and I run it ~4 hours each night for the 10 days preceding Halloween.


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## Fright Zone

@ Otaku- I bookmarked that. I still use a Kmart flying ghost and a black light LOL. I've seen too many FCG's. But if I ever change my mind I'd rather buy a kit than make one myself in this case. Chillers, fences, archway tunnels, PVC props I can DIY. But mechanical things I'd cheat with a kit ; )

@ Daphne-

Here's a couple photos (Fog Chiller Tests :: Fogging Cauldron Test Pt I picture by bpesti - Photobucket) of my 48 qt Igloo Ice Cube Chiller and a 400W Gemmy fogger hooked up to a 16" plastic cauldron with a smaller 8" and taller cauldron pail (like a coffee can) holding a Mini Mister (with a single white LED) I got off eBay. You can't see the Mini mister in those photos but it's very close to the top. I took a coat hanger and formed a pyramid shape by bending it into a series of I guess you might say "concentric" squares on top of one another. I'd have to dig up a photo to show you but the point is to get the Mini Mister on top of somehitng that doesn't float to get it as high up to the top as possible inside whatever tall water container you use. You may have to refill it once in a few hours. I didnt' have to refill mine at all on Halloween. The Mini Mister in that specific set-up did pick up the slack when the low wattage fogger turned off to reheat often. But yes in a large stirring witch cauldron a Mini Mister would have to be positioned to work via some inventive rigging I suppose. But really the point of the photos is that if you use a fog chiller then the fogging cauldron looks great and billows all over the sides. I would venture an educated guess it would work fine with a large 50 gallon drum cauldron. I did try a test without the chiller which shot straight up like a steam train. So the the chiller set-up works.

On the other fogging control note, I shot some video of my fogger positioned 6" from the back of a large tombstone. I may put screengrabs up later. It does in fact work. But note don't misunderstand me, the purpose in that case isn't to make low-lying fog. You can only achieve that by chilling the fog because the colder it is the heavier it is. I tried this particular idea for a different effect and a different type of control over the fog and the wind outdoors. I got the idea from Cedar Point Amusement Park's HalloWeekends. They shot their 1400W and 4400W constant foggers straight into the back side of black tarp border fences. It does in fact combat the wind because it forces the fog to build up against the tarp or tombstone or anything flat & solid. It collects slowly rises and lingers. The wind eventually takes control but only when the fog is way up in the air. I plan on using that effect with the Lightning FX and halogen lamps so all that fog rising slowly gets back lit by the Liightning Effect. I'll use the fog chiller for low lying graveyard fog atmosphere. Halloween is a long ways away. Plans are made to be broken. But I liked both of those ways of "semi-controlling" the fog and making it linger in an area.


----------



## Grave Digger

*Unfortunate Events & Martin Customer Service - Part 1*



Lunatic said:


> FYI- I bought an 800 watt Martin but never used it last year but I will this year. To be honest, the unit I got was scratched had finger prints all over it and the nozzle shot upwards. I sent it back for an exchange and got nothing but grief from Martin. They sent me back the same unit that they fixed and it had a huge gouge in the timer remote. I was extremely disappointed in their customer service! I'm not sure if I would buy another expensive Martin because of the poor service.


Hey Lunatic!

Long time no hear!

Glad to see you and others on the forum again. I dropped in a few times back in January thru March, but the thread was dead. With August almost upon us I'm starting to feel the need to drag out my Fog Machine and finish work on my home made Vortex Pro chiller.

Last year I had to abandon using my fog chiller at the last minute and just go with the Martin fog machine for my grave yard. What happened you ask? Well I planned out building my Vortex Pro fog chiller three weeks before Halloween. I had everything built but the critical ice shelf - and I wanted to build something that would last for years - and stay true to the original design. That called for expanded metal.

I ran into some difficulties locating the expanded metal for my ice shelf. The only places that had it or could get it (special order) wanted over $300 - and wanted 6 weeks lead time (they were backed up with other jobs). I located a source in the next town (over at a Home Depot), but when I drove over and saw it for myself - it wasn't strong enough for my needs so that trip was a bust.

With Halloween night almost upon me and and no ice shelf I had run out of options. At the last minute I found a small welder's shop (he wasn't even listen in the Yellow Pages) as I was driving home (the back way) from Lowes. So I stopped by on a whim. Luckily he had just what I needed (one last sheet of expanded metal) so I waited and he got out the plasma torch and cut it to size for me. Tickled pink I looked at my watch and notice it's about 5:00pm on Halloween Eve  talk about last minute!!! So I rushed home to add the missing piece to my chiller and complete it. Only the [email protected] thing is a bit to big to fit inside my 44 gallon Brute Trash can and it's too late to go back and have the resized! Talk about pissed. When the welder measured for the cut he used a greese pencil and made marks here and there - so the finished cut wasn't exactly what I would call round. Anyway it wouldn't fit inside my trash can (except at a 45 degree angle) and I didn't have a Jig Saw to trim it with night fall almost upon me.

Soooo I had to go with plan "B" for Halloween. 

So the moral of the story is... no how matter how much you plan a project in advance.... something will always happen so that you'll find yourself at the last minute wishing you had more time.

So what was plan "B". Well I had to omitt using the fog chiller and unfortunately just go with the fog machine. If you'll remember from last year's posts I have a Martin Magnum 2000 fog machine so I gave it a good work out. (Also of note this was the first time I had even turned this puppy on since i got it).



http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=magnumpro2000

Someone's YouTube Video demo of the Magnum 2000





And boy did it did it impress the neighboors! Especially the kids!!!

I had installed some red flood lights on one corner of the house (leading up to the front door to illuminate the walkway and a skeleton who was waist deep in the ground - digging herself out of her grave).

At first I started the fog machine with it's output dialed down (45%)and let it run continuously (no reheating required). With the pump ramping technology Martin uses it didn't make too much noise nor spit and sputter. Just a smooth stream of fog. Very very cool. So after a while I decided to crank up this baby and see what it could really do. There was no wind present so the Martin started making a lot of fog. Let me say that again to be clear. It made a lot of fog. And it just hung around in the air and started to rise and slowly drift. So much so that after a few minutes I couldn't see the yard (nor the house for that matter). A total white out!

:googly:

About this time I went into the garage for a minute to look for a thicker extension cord (heavy duty). It was then that a middle aged couple driving down the road saw the large plume of fog rising into the air and the red lights along the roof line glowing thru the fog.

Seeing the red lights and what they thought was smoke they stopped in front of my house (with the wife blowing the car horn) and the husband worriedly runing up to my house thinking it was on fire.

It was about then I came out of the garage thinking "WTF" ???

Luckily the house wasn't on fire and they didn't call the fire department.

This year I'll notify the fire department and give them a heads up just in case.

On the positive side when I turned down the output and set the timer the kids and adults loved the slowly drifting fog (airborne) that came in waves.

So yes the fog machine got a lot of good comments so it wasn't a bust. Yea it was cool, but it would have been so much better had it been ground hugging fog instead of airborne fog!

end of part 1


----------



## Grave Digger

*Unfortunate Events & Martin Customer Service - Part 2*



Lunatic said:


> FYI- I bought an 800 watt Martin but never used it last year but I will this year. To be honest, the unit I got was scratched had finger prints all over it and the nozzle shot upwards. I sent it back for an exchange and got nothing but grief from Martin. They sent me back the same unit that they fixed and it had a huge gouge in the timer remote. I was extremely disappointed in their customer service! I'm not sure if I would buy another expensive Martin because of the poor service.


Geez. Where did you buy it?

Was it factory sealed?

Was it purchased from a authorized Martin dealer?

Was it purchased new or did the dealer sell you a used unit (store return) and try and sell it as new????

If you bought it new (i.e. they sold it to you as a new unit) - by law it has to be just that or otherwise a dealer is committing fraud. If I was you I would have taken it back to the DEALER right away and asked for an exchange or if they wouldn't do that demand a refund and buy it elsewhere.

As always it's best to use a credit card so you have the Bank on your side if a sale goes south. Also if you don't have one get something like an American Express card. My AMEX card has a program (Buyer Protection Plan) that doubles the warrenty and if you buy something and the store won't take it back - AMEX will and refund your money. On TV they show an example of a lady who buys a glass vase, gets it home and drops it.... AMEX makes it good (replaces the vace) for a limited period of time.

I bought my Martin from a Authorized Dealer after finding them on the Internet. 
http://www.midweststereo.com/Contact.html
http://www.midweststereo.com/marmag2000.html

I got mine for less than what they are currently selling them for on the Internet. They had a sale for telephone orders at the time. Should you order one call and ask about a better price (sale price).

My Fogger arrived in mint condition so I was happy. And I would buy another Martin fogger from them should I ever need another.

This delivery story wasn't totally uneventful as UPS dropped my case of Fog Juice (I ordered 4 gallons of Martin Fog Juice) at the UPS Depot and the case was leaking all over the place. Knowing UPS the package either:

1 - fell off the truck when they opened the door at unloading.
2 - someone tossed it to another employee while unloading and they 
missjudged it's weight and dropping it.
3 - Fell off the ramp.
4 - Terrorist forces attacked my case of Fog Juice and mortally wounded it.

Anyway UPS contacted Midwest Stereo and they took care of the paper work. Midwest contacted me (right after UPS called) to let me know they were sending out a new case of Fog Fluid right away. Two days later I had my replacement case of Fog Juice and all was well.

Re:
"I sent it back for an exchange and got nothing but grief from Martin. They sent me back the same unit that they fixed and it had a huge gouge in the timer remote. I was extremely disappointed in their customer service! I'm not sure if I would buy another expensive Martin because of the poor service."

I'm sorry to hear you didn't have a happy experiece. I feel your pain. I once sent in a $600 cell phone for warrenty repair (that I kept it in a leather case with a clear screen protector from day one so as to protect the screen from being scratched. It was in mint condition). So when I get the phone back from repair the screen looked like someone had taken sand paper to the screen. I was really really pissed. What can you do? Make noise. Talk to the customer service manager. Go over his head if you have too. The squeeky wheel gets the greese.

Where did send your unit back for repair? To Martin directly in FL or a factory authorized repair center somewhere else?

Since you didn't get satisfaction from their customer service guy contact Martin (be polite but firm). Make a note of everyone's name (first and last) you talk to before you tell them what your problem is. Tell them what happened. Tell them what transpired and that it is totally unacceptable. Ask them what are they going to do for you.

Martin Professional, Inc.

700 Sawgrass Corporate Parkway
Sunrise, FL 33325
U.S.A.

Sale and Service
Managing Director Brian Friborg
Number of employees 62
Tel. +1 954-858-1800
Fax +1 954-858-1811

__________________________________________

The only contact I have at Martin is Alex Ocampo. He isn't with customer service, but maybe he can point you to someone who can help.

Alex Ocampo
[email protected]

Technical Support Specialist
Martin Professional, Inc.
www.martinpro.com

954-375-2842 x264 direct
954.858.1800 office
954.858.1811 fax
MSN Messenger = [email protected]

__________________________________________________

If that doen't work contact someone back at home base (in Denmark). My contact there is Larry Beck (sales rep).

Telephone: +1 719 686 0793
E-mail: [email protected]
Internet: www.martin.com

__________________________________________________

Another thought...
Tell them you are doing a product review (for a web site) of different brands of Fog machines for halloween... and right now Martin's customer service and build quality is scraping the bottom of the barrel and you want to give them a second chance before you go to print. Be nice but firm.

Let me know what happens.

Hope this helps.

Grave Digger
:xbones:


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## Daphne

Otaku, Thank you thank you!!!! Yes, that is it. I couldn't remember if you had to build your own frame but it appears you do. That is perfect since I want something collapsible to go in my front yard. Of course my next question was "Has anyone purchased this particular unit and how was it?" You nailed them both. Awesome. I thought it was $175 instead of $190 so guess I should have already ordered it. I just haven't figured out a way to sneak both it and a new fogger in on my credit card yet ha, ha! I'm with Frightzone on this, cheat with a kit on the mechanics. I spent jillions of hours building tombstones and will happily build the ghost and frame but the mechanical side isn't my strong suite (which of course makes me wonder if I'll electrocute myself building ScareFx's amazing witch/cauldron ha, ha) 

Frightzone, thanks for the pictures, they look great! I built the 60 gallon square Igloo chiller last year. (last year was actually my first year for any of this, before, we just had pumpkins and an inflatable Frankenstein). I hadn't thought of combining the mister with the fogger in the cauldron but that makes sense. It would look weird to have no residual "steam" coming from the cauldron everytime the fogger kicked off to reheat. You are right, working the mister in with a stirring stick may become a challenge. But frankly, if I can actually get the rest of it to actually function, the mister aspect should be a piece of cake. 

I didn't fully understand the "hit the tombstone with the fog" idea but now I do. Oh that is sweet. I thought you meant that it was to fog the ground for the cemetary as opposed to a completely different effect. I assume to backlight it that you have the lights pointing up around a 45 or so but you have something a few feet in front of them so the light doesn't hit people in the eyes since it is backlit? This is a very cool idea. I had heard of people hanging tulle netting around but that combined with this would totally rock.

Grave Digger, that was hilarious. That sounds like an awesome machine you have there.

Lunatic, please let us know what happens on your Martin. With all these great suggestions, I definitely have to buy a second fogger now ha, ha. I had initially decided to go Martin after reading that so many people loved them (even though my new VEI was awesome last year). After your post about the problem you had though, I got nervous and decided that perhaps I should go with a second VEI although that isn't set in stone. It would be nice to know if you can get it resolved without having to threaten to slap someone. FWIW, I have no idea how VEI's customer service is, they could be better or worse.


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## Fright Zone

GraveDigger that's a good story I hope your chiller works out this year so we can see the results of that variation.

Daphne yeah sorry I confused the issue since this is a chiller thread when I stared talking about other fog "control" techniques. Here's the thread that makes more sense of the other to keep it separate from this thread "Lightning and Thunder - On the cheap?". I posted some screengrabs on photobucket in there so you can see the basic test effect. The wind does take it a little bit but not nearly as much as the fog straight out the nozzle into thin air. the back of the tombstone collects the fog into a thicker cloud that's harder for the wind to disrupt. And the main idea is to get that type of fog cloud backlit with the Lightning FX unit and halogen lights for atmosphere a little different from rolling ground fog but still somehwat controlled within an area.

I plan to use my chiller (I bought a 60qt Igloo on sale off-season but haven't drilled the inlet and outlet holes yet but I may try that instead of my 48qt Igloo) for graveyard fog in front of the tombstones and then the fog hitting the back of the tombstone backlit by halogen lights technique hooked up to the Lighting FX unit as shown. Maybe it'll be too much different kinds of fog but what the heck I might as well experiment. I may not actually get to do a full blown yard haunt this year but should have time or an excuse in October to set a small graveyard up wiht PVC props and videotpae it at the very least so that's what I plan on trying this year. I got the Lightning FX unti backlighting the fog idea from the video seen on hauntingivyhall.com.


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## Daphne

Frightzone, thanks for the link. That is a very cool effect, the pictures were great. You won't hear me complaining, I hijacked the thread asking about the FCG ha,ha. If I have time, I will definitely look into trying this for this year. It is definitely on next year's plan otherwise.

Wonder when the Igloo's go on sale? I have the dilemna of using a pre-existing chest cooler (with the drain cap gnawed off so it is useless as a regular cooler) and using the GotFog modified design or buy another 60 to modify with the Vortex design.


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## Fright Zone

It all comes down to one more way to have fun with fog. Experiment and have fun. And when that's done think of another reason to try something else ; ) Which is why this thread is the 800 lb. Gorilla of threads LOL

The Igloos Ice Cubes were in huge supply at Wal-Mart for the Spring and Summer this 2007 season. They even had them in the grocery isles near the Sumer-themed BBQ stuff. I think they were on sale but since Wallyworld always undercuts prices and I had already bought mine I didn't pay attention to the price. I did see the WM near me had some 60qts left. I had bought mine on Oct 10, 2006 for $23.34 incl tax. I remember it was on a top shelf in the back by the hunting products and then they moved them to the top shelf by the dog food to make room for other stuff. I ended up not using it for last Halloween. WM may have a proprietary deal to sell the Cubes in stores becasue I haven't seen them anywhere else but I could be wrong. I used the 48qt which I had paid $16.33 on Sep 16, 2006. I'll to cut holes in the 60qt and try it this year but unless I get a larger fogger I don't know how the 400W will work with it. I did try putting my 400W on top of the cooler and piping into the 48qt with two 90 degree sweep connectors but it didn't produce good results. The Gemmy pumps out lots of fog but it just doesn't have the velocity I think a higher wattage fogger probably has.


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## Moon Dog

Glad to see that this thread is still, gulp, "alive"  

Looks like I have some catching up to do in my reading!


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## Fright Zone

It must eat brains to survive and stop the pain (And I think it does that quite well) LOL!


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## Hellspawn

I just scored two 48qt igloos from my local wallgreens for 12.00 each, having a hard time finding the 60qt, so ill see how these will work with my 700w lite/fx


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## Fright Zone

That's pretty good. Never would have guessed Walgreen's. Put the two together to make a 96qt LOL! I got my 48qt Igloo Cube for $16.33 incl tax at Wal-Mart in Sept last year. I got the the 60qt for $23.34 incl tax at Wal-Mart in Oct. That's the only place I saw the 60qt. Most of them are the flat lid but some of them are the rounded lid. I'd have to look it up but one of us used a 60qt with the convex lid last year.


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## LOTL

Read through all 56 pages and im ready to build my first chiller.
Im planning on the 48 Qt. Igloo if i can still find one.
My use will be primarily for indoor Halloween dances that ill be the D.J. for.
I thought i had my mind made up on the Martin Magnum 550 till i saw it had no timer built in. The 800 is out of my price range and i think a little overkill for a 40'x40' dance floor. The other option was to cheap out and just go with the Walmart 400 Gemmy.
I read a few pages back, that the martins seem to generate a dryer fog, were less noisy and have a removable reservoir. Im not all that concerned with the noise as i doubt anyone will hear it until the music stops. What i am concerned with is the amount of moisture left behind on the dance floor.
I think i only saw one person in this thread say they were using this indoors and mentioned something about spilling some juice on his carpet. A few people said they would never use it indoors, but not much else was said.
Is one juice better than another when it comes to moisture residue?
Is it worth it for me to go with the Martin 550 and try rigging up some sort of plug in timer. Would that even work with the warm cycle if i was to interrupt power completely to the unit?
Or should i just go with the Walmart special? Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Fright Zone

Congratualtions!

I only have the 400W Gemmy's from Wal-Mart so far. And the main problem is that the low wattage heating element turns off VERY OFTEN to reheat. But the timer is a must not matter what fogger you use.

If I were step it up myself I'd look at a American DJ Fog Storm 1200W for $150

Or a VEI V-930T 1000W for $150

Frighteners Entertainment also sells some name brand foggers. He posts here often.

I'd also think about making the 60qt. I have both the 48qt and an unfinished 60qt. But it sounds like the larger 60qt works well with a higher wattage fogger. Others can chime in.

I'd also recommend refrigerator ice cubes if you can make enough of them. The store bought bag of ice cubes stick together a lot more. I bought a bunch of ice cube trays and keep filling them up. You could always get a smaller Igloo the kind that fits in a car seat to keep extra ice cubes.

Also get a pet food scoop to scoop ice in and out of the fog chiller no matter which one you build.


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## LOTL

Thanks FZ, 
Funny i was initially looking at the VEI foggers and got side tracked once i started reading through this thread. Was reading the reviews on them at gotfog.com before stumbling across this forum.
I was trying to draw the line at $100 for the fogger, but as with everything else i buy (obsess over) that line almost always gets crossed. As has been mention here and elsewhere, it seems you usually get what you pay for with foggers.
I like the looks of that V-930T you linked to and may go with that. The ADJ unit doesn't come with the timer, it has to be purchased separately.
So your leaning towards the 60 Qt. Igloo now ay? I know several posts in this thread mentioned that the larger the fogger the larger the chamber. For my indoor application, im wondering if a 1000 watter will be overkill. I suppose i can always set the timer up for less frequent cycling.
Any input on the moisture build up when used indoors?


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## Fright Zone

I used the 48 qt last year because that's all I could find. I also only used the 48qt hooked up to a cauldron to make it fog. I used a trash can chiller for ground fog. That's just the way it worked out. I actually stumbled across it when we started talking about it on another forum and I realized the basic shape mimicked the taller shape of the Vortex chillers. Then others started trying the 60qt. (or gmacted used a 1300W constant fogger with a 120qt Coleman rectangular shaped cooler). And I only have 400W foggers. I think the higher wattage fogger and added velocity out of the fogger would work better with the 60qt based on what others have done here. the main benefit you get wiht a 1000W+ fogger is fog on demand. The 400W's just reheat too often. Here's 



 that shows an American DJ 1000W fogger with the 60qt Igloo and a trash bag on the outlet outdoors.

I never tried it indoors except for an enclosed patio with carpeting briefly. So I can't comment with authority on condensation building on a dance floor. You gotta think there's A/C but also body heat so it might just depend on the specific conditions. It's a legitimate concern. I'd start a new thread in the Atmosphere section with new subject line to specifically adress that issue. You may get a more direct response from those who know and may not frequent this monster thread.


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## Fright Zone

LOTL - I also have a post in another thread where turtle2778 asked about fog chillers that is a good summary of various designs "Making of a fog chiller"


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## Revenant

Okay, so I'm getting my little 400W special tomorrow (thanks Vlad!), and I have some materials at home here to get me going. I wants ta make me a chiller this week. I'm using a 5-gallon bucket, but there's not a lot of volume for an expansion chamber and enough ice, so...

I was thinking of cutting a circle out of the top of the bucket lid and sili-caulking an inverted mixing bowl there, thus expanding the headroom and giving the fog a little more room to stretch its legs before cooling and filtering down through the ice. I originally was going to use a metal bowl, so that some of the fog's heat would sink out faster and be less melty on the ice, but then decided metal might be too aggressive a cooling surface and cause more condensation i.e. less fog. So, FZ et al, whatcha think about the expanded expansion chamber? Think it might allow a little more fog to fully form before chilling?

(And in case you were about to recommend using a cooler instead... I'm sure they're better, but I just had a brutally expensive car repair today and my Halloween budget for this year is shot, so I'm staying with materials I already have. A bucket chiller is what it's gonna be. With a layer of insulation around it. A little extra work, but a free chiller.)


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## Fright Zone

I was going to recommend a cooler instead  I'd have to defer to those who have done smaller chillers out of 5 gallon buckets. Someone I recall on one of these pages took two buckets and placed one upside down on the other and taped them together to make it taller. But yeah it would need some sort of sealing otherwise the fog escapes. Go ahead and try it I say. I have a lot of the chiller variations bookmarked. 



 Note it's being used indoors. It just uses the size of the bucket and no other attachements to make the expansion chamber larger.


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## Daphne

FWIW, I have the VEI 930-T and a 60qt Igloo chiller. Awesome fogger, amazing with the chiller. I can't help you with the residue on the floor question, I only used mine outside but I recommend it highly. It does go over your $100 limit but from what I understand, you will have to buy the Wal-Mart foggers every year and you won't with this one. Also, with the smaller ones, you will have a lot of downtime for reheating. 

Little tidbit I found out about the day AFTER Halloween. On the off chance your machine clogs, you can very gently insert a needle in the end to clear the problem. You DON'T put it in very far. Mine did clog after hours of running but I easily resolved it. This is a problem they all have, I don't think there was anything magical about it happening to my VEI. The person who told me had a Martin I believe.


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## LOTL

Thanks Daphne,
I picked up my 60 Qt. Igloo today and will probably start working on it over the weekend. I stopped in at Home depot and checked out some PVC fittings among other things. Im thinking of going 3" on the inlet and maybe using a 3"x2" reducer on the outlet. That way i can play around with 2" or 3" pipe to see what works best. What did you use on yours? Have any pics you can share?

On another note, i had someone offer me a Chauvet F-1250 for $139.00 shipped.
I still think the quality may be a little better on the VEI V-930T which i have only found for $150. Not a big price difference. I like the idea of the auto shut off when it runs out of juice. Seems some people here like em and some have had issues.
FZ thanks for the link to that other thread, got me thinking about trying the frozen water bottles and maybe filling in the gaps with a few trays of home ice.


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## Fright Zone

The Vortex Fusion fog chiller product uses 3" dia ABS for their pipes. I never did find out the dimensions of the Vortex products from what I recall. But the 60 qt has to be close to that size. The only goofy thing about the 60 qt is the bottom of the insides is angled to accommodate the wheels. And the shape is more rectangular than the 48 qt which is smaller but squarer. I'd like to see someone try the 3" dia PVC so go for it. No one here was brave enough to try it. They all went with 2" dia PVC from what I recall. You'll need a large diameter hole saw and drill bit mandrel to drill a nice hole that will accommodate 3" dia PVC.

I've heard people having problems with the Chauvet fog machines. I'd just go with the VEI myself.


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## Otaku

I have a F-1250 and so far no problems except for a clogged nozzle that I cleared with a needle (happened once last Halloween). I have heard from people that had problems right out of the box, including lousy packaging that caused damage, fog juice all over the machine, fogger didn't work, and difficulty getting service. I don't know - sometimes I think it's a crap shoot, and that really surprises me given the amount of money that haunters are spending on equipment.


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## LOTL

After reading back through a few pages of this thread again, im wondering if the VEI-930T might be a little overkill for my indoor use. I take it if i set the timer up correctly, that ill be able to control the amount of fog it dispenses.
Even with the timer set correctly, is a higher wattage/power unit going to pump the fog out with more velocity than say a 400 or 700 watt unit? 
Seems the higher quality lower wattage units from Martin and VEI dont come with the same features or include timers like the higher wattage units do.
So please push me off the fence one more time and tell me ill be able to control the V-930T just as easy as a lower wattage unit.


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## Fright Zone

Honestly I'd ask one or more of the places you might buy the fogger from and see what they say. Also post this question in a new thread in the "Atmosphere" section. More people will see it. This thread is such a monster. I don't think everyone looks at it. That's why you got more good imediate responses on the indoor fog question thread. 

I can say this. The 400W ones pump out the fog pretty good. I can only compare (and not side-by-side) to 1400W and 4400w LeMaitre's outdoors that I've seen. Those pump it out farther and wider it's true. But by leaps and bounds. Even watching the 400W Martin demo video I'm not so sure. I think the main thing is a higher wattage fogger is "fog on demand" when you nat it because the heating element doesn't shut off to reheat as often, if at all ,compared to 400W. Believe me the 400W Gemmy's are great for what they are an pump out a lot of fog BUT that aspect drives me up the wall it's very bothersome. it seems like it spends more time off than on. I timed it once. I'd have to look it up. but the point is the low wattage fogger turns off way too often especially if you're only using them for a couple hours once a year and want the effect happening often. So if it was in my budget and I knew for a fact I was doing a yard haunt (can't speak for an indoor event), I'd definitely step up to the 1000W and the timer. All timers control the fog burst duration as well as the interval between those bursts. So I'd say yes you could control a 1000W well enough. But ask in another thread for other first-hand opinions. And let us know what the retailer say.


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## LOTL

FZ,
I had emailed three different vendors right after i posted that last response and only got one reply that was worthwhile. 
Ill be placing an order for the V-930T this afternoon with him. Sorry about going a little off topic, but this thread seemed like a good place to ask these questions. I didn't get many replies to the post i placed in the Atmosphere forum about the Indoor use, and the responses i got here were helpful.
Ill do my best to keep things on topic and will be sure to post some pics and my results once i have this beast working.
Thanks again for all your input.


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## Fright Zone

That's fine. I wasn't actually suggesting it was off topic. I think it's on topic because that's half of the fog chilling equation. I thought the couple answers on the Indoor topic were helpful. I was thinking you might get a better response where people could see the topic. Let us know how your set-up works out for you. It's good to hear how people use the chillers and different foggers for different effects.


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## Daphne

Sorry I am just now responding. I'm working 16-18 hour days and it is about to kill me! I can't remember what size PVC I used on my chiller but I'll drag it out of the attic this weekend (now I have an excuse he, he) and I'll see if I can't check measurements AND take a few shots.

I don't know squat about Chauvet other than some folks here have them. I was going to recommend that you order now but it appears you already have. I waited and everyone was out. I literally found one vendor online that had them and I barely got it in time for Halloween.

Wish I'd seen this earlier, I would have recommended you talk to BuriedAlive (Dean) at monsterguts.com. He is extremely knowledgeable about VEI and carries the entire line I think. Had he not run out with no hopes of getting more in, I'd have bought my fogger from him in a heartbeat last year. Great guy! He knows them upside down. 

I am trying to remember but I think the next VEI down does not come with a timer and I can't remember whether you can get one for it or not. I also oscillated on the next step down versus the 930T and Dean recommended I go with the 930T (this from a man who had no prayer of a sale since he couldn't get the product and he spent more time talking to me than all the others combined!) Granted, my space is outside but I think you could throttle it down to make it work for you. You absolutely want a timer though.

Sorry I chimed in too late to provide any value. I'll look to see if you started a new thread in Atmosphere or I can post a few pictures and info for you here.

Good luck.


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## Daphne

I used 2" ID PVC on both input and output on the chiller.

I also used big rubber grommets to attach the input/output PVC. The grommet sticks out of the hole slightly and the PVC goes into it. The input is wrapped in pipe wrap. Oddly enough, I had no fog leaking from the these holes.

I used cheapo spray paint, they were all out of the Krylon (I think that was what everyone was using, I can't remember). The paint job is not beautiful but you couldn't see the chiller so it worked OK.

Do NOT under ANY circumstances, mess with the wire for the tray without gloves. My hands are healed now but I could barely use them for a week or so.

I took a picture of it but can't figure out how to post it here. Anyone, anyone?


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## LOTL

Daphne,
Thanks for the info. I don't believe this forum hosts pictures. It appears a lot of people are using photo bucket or the like to host their pics and then link to them here.
Im pretty sure im going to go with 3" on inlet and outlet and then use female threaded adapters on both. Then i can screw plugs on both for transport/storage. I can also make up both 2" and 3" pipes for the outlet using a reducer bushing for the 2" pipe. Was even considering a 3" PVC ball valve to throttle the outlet. 
Id like to think the 3" pipe on the inlet wont have any detrimental affect and may help contain any backwash (for lack of a better word) from the fog entering the unit.
The grommets you used were they anything like the ones shown on McmasterCarrs website? Link
Just search for part number 9280K38. Sorry there was no way to post a link of their catalog page surprisingly enough.
The thing with the grommets i linked to is they require a larger hole to fit them in. I think ill just keep it simple and use the 3.5" hole saw bit and silicone around the pipe. Now to go back through this thread to see what height people were keeping the pipes off the cooler bottom. I was planning on just attaching a piece of poly tubing to the drain plug on the cooler to drain the water.


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## Daphne

LOTL, it is similar but no. Mine is about 2.25 inches tall with a couple graduated barbs. It came from either Home Depot or Lowes. I did it this way to allow me to remove the output PVC for storage. You idea sounds good. I don't have the output grommet secured so it is sort of a pain to hook up the PVC. (those type of problems arise when you are finishing the chiller at 5:45 on Halloween! I always over-engineer/beat everything to death and there is typically 7 different simpler methods I should have used ha, ha. Yours sounds like one of those better ideas ha, ha.

I measured and the top of the wire shelf is 8 inches from the bottom of the cooler. Note: This measurement is on the front of the cooler which is 
deeper. 

Make sure your plug is lower than the holes so you can just stick a hose on it. That was what I used to drain away from the area and it worked fine.

I'd be curious to see how your tests turn out once you have everything ready to go.


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## tcarter

I don't know if this has been addressed or not since this thread is way too frikin long for me to feel like reading it in even the smallest capacity, but I just got back from my local CVS and they have a 75% summer clearance on their cooler. I picked up two 50 quart igloo ice cube coolers for $7.49 each. Worth checking out if you need a cooler


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## Revenant

2 questions:

1) What or who is CVS?

2) How important is the space for the bottom(collection) chamber? I'm using a 5-gallon bucket for my first chiller, and I'm just putting it together now... I don't want to lose too much ice space and expansion space, but I don't know how much room is necessary for the cold fog to collect on its way out.


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## LOTL

tcarter said:


> I don't know if this has been addressed or not since this thread is way too frikin long for me to feel like reading it in even the smallest capacity, but I just got back from my local CVS and they have a 75% summer clearance on their cooler. I picked up two 50 quart igloo ice cube coolers for $7.49 each. Worth checking out if you need a cooler


Ive heard people talk about 48 and 60 Igloo ice cube coolers but not 50 qt. are you sure this wasn't a 60 qt.? I might take mine back to Wally world and head over to CVS.
CVS is a drug store chain here in the northeast. (maybe elsewhere)


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## Fright Zone

Apparently they did make a 50 qt this Summer. It looks like the 48qt bottom with a redesigned lid. I would still use the 60 qt if I were you. Here's a Fog Chiller Construction :: Can vs 60 qt vs 48 qt picture by bpesti - Photobucket of a side-by-side comparison of my 48 and 60.

As far as where to drill the inlet and outlet holes. That's admittedly the hardest part to decide. I based mine on what the Vortex Fusion looks like. It has one hole centered and lower on one side. Then on a perpendicular side it has a hole up higher and 1/3rd from the back side. This is the one that goes to the 90 degree bend/sweep inside the chiller.

Why is it designed like that? I don't know. Except that the perpendicular idea is to position the inlet and outlet to not be straight across from each other, so the fog has to travel inside and take more time to get chilled and expand in separate chambers before moving out of the chiller. But as far as the height difference of where they're positioned form the bottom of the chiller, I don't know if it has something to do with material costs dictating the measurement or not.

The other point of confusion is that some of us like myself liked the way the intended outlet worked as the inlet instead. So I had to prop up my fogger on a box to get the nozzle centered with the PVC hole.

Regardless that's an important point to remember: The fogger nozzle should be positioned to shoot the fog into the center of the pipe's diameter. Don't forget the 2-3" gap of space between the fogger nozzle and the inlet pipe for air convection and therefore fog velocity and expansion. Or use a pseudo venturi wye or Fog Chiller Misc :: 400W to Double Wye picture by bpesti - Photobucket to create air convection and then you can put the fogger nozzle right up against it without using a 2-3" gap of space.

Btw, the forum accepts inline photos (see the how to build a Pumpkin Rot thread for an example). It is easier to see them in a thread. But the page will load slower. I personally just choose to keep them all straight on photobucket. But it's easier to keep track of them in a web gallery.


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## Revenant

*Finally built!*

I finally built my first chiller. It's a little one, in a bucket, but it'll work. And I got my little fogger from Vlad and I'm all ready to go... except when I wanted to test it tonight I realized I didn't have enough ice cubes. DOH!!!









Dumped the ice I had into a bag, refilled the ice cube trays... _tomorrow_ I play with fog... sheesh...


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## LOTL

Well should see the fogger this week. I been brainstorming (more like a light rain)
some today and came up with this idea for an outlet pipe. Was wondering if you guys think it might create to much turbulence and restrict the fog coming out of the chiller.
I was thinking the 2 pipes could be left loose at the tee so they could be rotated downward or up if need be.
I decided to stick with 2" piping seeing as how i already have the hole saw bit for it. Another $15 for the 3 1/2" bit was just to much for this little experiment.
So any thoughts on the drawing idea would be appreciated.


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## Revenant

*Woohoo! At last!*

I frozed me up some ice cubes last night, and tested my new creation... I must say, I just _luvs_ chillin' me some fog! My little bucket chiller works fine for the little 400W fogger... it was especially cool at the side of the house where the slope is; the fog swept wide and marched/rolled down the hill in ghostly little ripply waves... I think I'm gonna have all kindsa fun experimenting with this!
:jol:


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## Fright Zone

LOTL - I'm not following you on that PDF diagram. Why put a Tee in the middle of an outlet pipe?

The cost of a hole saw and 3" PVC was why a lot of us didn't try it. One of these days someone will. I think the effect is that the fog would just pour out more, kind of dump out of the chiller whereas the 2" PVC I think probably causes the fog to shoot out "tighter" and farther befroe preading out.

Rev - Fog chillin' is fun! I noticed Target had these small 12qt 12x12x11 Igloo Ice Cube coolers that could be fun to play with but pricier than a 5 gallon bucket.


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## LOTL

Fright Zone said:


> LOTL - I'm not following you on that PDF diagram. Why put a Tee in the middle of an outlet pipe?
> The cost of a hole saw and 3" PVC was why a lot of us didn't try it. One of these days someone will. I think the effect is that the fog would just pour out more, kind of dump out of the chiller whereas the 2" PVC I think probably causes the fog to shoot out "tighter" and farther before spreading out.


 FZ, my thinking on the tee is that it might accomplish what the trash bag does, but look a little less trashy The slots in the two pipes would disperse the fog over more of a wide area. I was thinking the pipes would be about 16" in length. Ill see what the tee, 2 caps and the additional piping will cost and if its more than $10, ill stick to a straight outlet. I saw someones video here that had used the double wye fitting on his outlet. Most of the fog seemed to come straight out of the middle pipe. 
Im surprised no one has tried the 3" pipe yet. Ill be heading out Saturday to pick up the piping and other supplies. Fogger is coming today and the juice on Friday. I may break down and give the 3" a try we will see.


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## airscapes

OMG.. a year later and this thread still goes on.. amazing..


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## Fright Zone

^ airscapes - Yeah I still point new people to your youtube videos for proof it works. Thanx for keeping them up there. As new people try it I guess we also try different methods and variations to put a DIY individual stamp on the project is why it keeps goign I think. The other thing is I got it going again because after all that talk we got burnt out after Halloween 2006 and forgot to share our results or photos.

^^ LOTL - I ried the double wye for kicks in the photo you mention. It did in fact mostly go out the center pipe. But it did seem to shoot it out farther FWIW. Jus tnot by leaps and bounds. You can try your outlet experiment. But I found the fog wants a single opening to go out of and then a wide open area like a trash bag will do its work by slowing down the velocity. Condensation does eventually build up in the bag. At night in the dark you can't see the bag. Indoors like what you want to do you could try it without the bag. But I actually cut my Hefty 30 or so gallon in half. It works better and is less obtrusive. (I'll answer your PM questions later tonight.)


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## The_Caretaker

Does anyone have a condensed version of this thread with all the pros and cons listed in one message?


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## Fright Zone

No. But I had done something similar in another thread that asked about making fog chillers in general. Not just the Vortex variations. I'll just requote it here:

That's a loaded question! ; ) Give yourself 2 hours and start reading our Vortex Chiller Manual thread:
http://www.hauntforum.com/showthread.php?t=3577

There's a bunch of dead links in that thread and a lot of discussion on trying to tweak a couple basic designs. But they do in fact work. There's a lot of discussion of testing on inlets, outlets and attachments. Bottom line is that the DIY chillers that work are the A) Vortex Igloo Ice Cube Chiller 48qt or 60qt size of which Wal-Mart has in stock right now in season. See the Vortex thread and my Photobucket links below in the last paragraph. It can also be made out of things the size of kitty litter pails and 5 gallon buckets for smaller indoor areas 



 B) a larger 120qt Coleman if you happen to have a 1000W or higher or 1300W constant fogger (which you do not) gmacted made one shown here and I believe Zombie-F uses this design and then there's C) Ghosts of Halloween trash can design shown here and D) a modified version of the gotfog.com chiller you're looking at in the link in your post. Otaku explains his mod on page 54 of the monster Vortex Chiller Manual link I posted above and there's the E) a trash can style Vortex design (not to be confused with the Ghosts of Halloween trash can design) this one shown 



 acts like a large cooler and uses no dryer ductwork. F) Not part of the Vortex thread but here's a "$20 chiller."

The thing about that Vortex Manual thread is a lot of us intentionally experimented to see how we could get our intended effects for the outdoor or indoor, large or small foggers, large or small areas, windy or not and shared ideas and results. ie. I encourage you to experiment yourself. I had two 400W Gemmy foggers which shut off a lot. I used my Vortex Igloo Cube to make a fogging cauldron while I used my trash can chiller with a Hefty bag on the outlet for graveyard fog successfully. Note for creeping, lower-lying fog, use a Hefty trash bag on the chiller outlet. Experiment with the size you cut it down to.

Note that anything corrugated like a dryer duct will create a wavy effect to the fog. Packing a tube with frozen water bottles is not necessary and will in fact slow down the fog output.

I successfully used Krylon Fusion Camo Ultra Flat Black (no need for primer) in Wal-Mart's paint section.

I personally don't have diagrams or printed instructions for my chillers because I liked the free-form experimentation aspect of figuring out how to make them work, but for my part, I posted photos on Photobucket with descriptions a long time ago. A 48qt Vortex Igloo Ice Cube Chiller Fog Chiller Construction pictures by bpesti - Photobucket. Fog Chiller Tests pictures by bpesti - Photobucket (which I included in response to your Fog and Strobe thread). My trash can chiller I used successfully last Halloween on Trash Can Chiller Construction pictures by bpesti - Photobucket (note the Hefty trash bag was cut smaller than what you see in the photos) and Trash Can Chiller Tests pictures by bpesti - Photobucket.

End quote


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## scare-m

Almost done BUT....

Can anyone please give me some advice on the inlet to my fog chiller from the fogger connection to the inlet of the chiiler

My fogger has its own internal "chiller" (really bad) I am bypassing it

The brass nozzle itself can be accessed directly and has about 1/2 inch circumfrence. The location of the nozzle requires tubing to access it directly. You cannot reach it with PVC as it would require too many angles.
Very hot nozzle picture by scare-m - Photobucket

I applied clear rubbing tubing and a tube clamp... pretty easy huh? NO, pretty stupid, it melted (duh)

So my question is "where in real life can I get a 2 ft piece of heat proof 1/2 inch tubing that I can clamp to this blazing hot nozzle? is this an automotive itemor do Lowes or Home Depot carry andI just have no idea what to ask for?


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## slightlymad

Plumbing store copper


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## Fright Zone

Target had the small 12 qt Igloo Ice Cube coolers on sale. So I drilled holes in one this weekend. I'm going to try and make a mini chiller and see what happens. It might be nice and compact for hooking up to a fogging cauldron with a 400W fogger. I used the 48 qt for that end last year. This is smaller than a 5 gallon bucket but it's the in the size same range. I used Plumbers Putty instead of caulk around the inside of the 2" PVC outlet. I pressure fit a female adapter on the outside of the cooler to a short straight PVC piece to a 90 degree bend pressed up against the inside. That puts the the bend in the corner inside the cooler so I may also try a longer piece of PVC to align the 90 degree bend centered going up to the lid. I'll also try the ice tray at different heights. I'll post photos when I get a chance. It might be a fun compact little chiller to play with.


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## LOTL

*60 Qt. Igloo Chiller w/ 3" PVC*

Got done building my chiller yesterday and tested it this morning.
I froze a case of spring water bottles last night along with 14 trays of ice cubes.
I was somewhat forced into a 1/2 expansion 1/2 ice design by the step on the outside of the cooler. I wanted the PVC female adapter to sit flush against the cooler and thats how it turned out. I also placed the output pipe at the same height which allows me to use the same platform for the fogger when using the reverse inlet. 
A little tip for working with the PVC pipe, you dont need to use PVC cement. In fact i used dish washing soap on all joints to allow me to more easily disassemble things after test fitting them. Works well on the 3" plugs. If you tighten them to much, they didnt want to come back out by hand.
I cut up an old U shape metal cover for a junk computer tower i had laying around for the fogger platform.
My first few tests today were done with 24 bottles of frozen spring water and the 14 trays of cubes. I definitely think all cubes will work a whole lot better. I have to fill a few of the gaps along the lid, as the fog would shoot out where ever it could. I did use some weather stripping in some areas which seemed to work well. I also kept some weight on the lid to help seal it off better. I used the Froggys quick dissipating fog juice as recommended by them for indoor use.
The trash bag trick on the outlet makes a big difference as others have said. Unfortunately by the time i got around to trying it, the ice had partially melted in the water bottles and even though the fog came out in a wider pattern, it was starting to rise more than when i first started testing.
I was surprised at how quickly the water bottles thawed out. After an hour of testing i yanked them out of the chiller and all of them had completely thawed. They were frozen solid after having sat in the freezer overnight. 
Fogger is a VEI V-930T bought from www.monsterguts.com (thanks Dean!)
Posted a few videos on youtube. I have several photos as well of the construction that i will probably post later.
Without Bag: 



With Bag on outlet: 



Reversed Input:


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## Fright Zone

Yeah! Success! I'm glad my recommendation on the fogger worked out. It looks like it gives a nice burst and fog on demand. Now I have to get one myself LOL I'm glad you read everything and understood it very well despite such voluminous info to slog thru (even though it's not rocket science there's definite doubt in one's mind until you try it and see for yourself). I'm glad you tried the 3" PVC and it worked. I think your dance will be a success and people will notice the low lying fog staying below their waist. Good videos and excellent commentary. Love the NE accent (my friend used to live up there he said something about getting buttered LOL). I'll bookmark them and add to the list of visual proof that it works.

I agree about the tray height being dictated by that wheel ledge. Good test with water bottles and why they work but don't last as long as ice cubes. Good test to see how the fog hits the speakers but then falls back down. Good test with the window open to see how a little bit of a breeze moves the fog around but not too much. Glad the trash bag worked for you. You can also try one cut down even more. That's good news about Froggy's low lying and less odor and the fog not affecting the smoke detector. I may try a test where the fogger and chiller are on a table top to see how far it falls. Btw here's what someone else said last year : "I have also used many different fog fluids with these, the cheap Party city stuff and the Froggys Swamp stuff. The amount of fog is definately different with the same machine and different juice. The cheap stuff looks thin, see thru and disapated fast, very hazy. The better stuff looked thicker, heaver, smoky and definately not see thru. Though the volume was probably the same, the better stuff made it look like twice the fog."

I also experienced more backwash with what you call the reversed input, which if I'm following your video and construction correctly is actually the Vortex Fusion's recommended input, in other words it's actually considered the "reverse inlet" when you shoot the fog up into the 90 degree bend (that's the way I do it).

I used plumbers putty around the PVC pipe and the chiller inside on the one I'm finishing. I used P-Seal weather strip just inside the lid. It's a bit tricky measuring where it should be placed. My lid got dirty at one point and conveniently made a mark where it aligned when fully closed. So I used that mark to place the weather stripping inside. If you ever remove the sharp edged hardware cloth ice tray it can pull up the weather stripping. Condensation eventually gets to the adhesive and it falls off in spots. But it's cheap enough to replace and does help the leakage around the lid. But even with leakage it works good.

I paint my chiller with Krylon Fusion Ultra Flat Camo black from Wal-Mart (seems to be the only place that sells it) since it doesn't need primering although any black paint will do. I cover the chiller with Creepy Cloth gauze. I got mine at Kmart. Kind of pricey but it looks good and acts as camo.

A) Did you use a 90 degree PVC bend or sweep inside? A sweep is a little more gradual. I have both but only have used the bend type inside my 48 qt. I may try the sweep in the 60 qt when I get around to it. I had tried sweeps when setting the fogger on top of the chiller but the little 400 W didn't do too well with that set up. Fog Chiller Attachments pictures by bpesti - Photobucket. Don't mind the goofy outlet attachments in the gallery. Those were just tests for the heck of it to give me a reason to play with the chiller this Summer. Except you can see some with a shorter trash bag that works. You can see how the weather strip came off after last year's season. I didn't repalce it when those were taken.

B) Did you try to walk or "dance" or spin thru your fog to see how real people movement affects the fog and if it creates a vortex?

C) I see you propped up the fogger on a box. Is it a box you just had laying around that was an arbitrary height?

D) I think it works fine drilling both holes at the same height (I just did that on my miniature 12 qt) but how high from the ground are the inlet/outlet holes on your 60qt chiller to the center of the pipe?


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## Daphne

LOTL,

The fogger looks great. 

Just to make sure you don't get an ugly little surprise at the event... On Halloween night after everything ran for awhile, the garbage bag filled with water on mine and stopped working properly. This happened even with the hose on the output. It's been a year since I built it but I believe my output is above the plug. (my husband put it back in the attic after I took pictures of it recently so I can't check it. I do think that signals that my Halloween stuff isn't coming down this weekend without ugly looks though ha, ha) 

With all the condensation, the bag eventually just fills up. We discussed solutions on here and the best I have come up with is a plastic shirt box bottom with a hole melted in somehow and an additional hose to keep it drained. Someone else may have a snazzier solution. 

Just be aware of it and validate you won't get an ugly surprise. This could be a huge problem indoors. Unless you plan to have a slip n slide and everyone in swim suits.


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## LOTL

FZ,
Wow payback for all those questions i had for you 
Yeah it was a little daunting at first, until i made the first hole. Then it all came together pretty quickly. Im not sure if a 1/3 - 2/3 arrangement would have worked better but after my recent test with all ice, i dont think it would matter.
I Posted another video after filling the chiller with ice.




I ran out and picked up 15 lbs of store bought ice along with several trays of freezer cubes. Filled to just below the pipe. Wow what a difference. Fog stayed low and about 6-8" off of the floor. Major difference from using the frozen water bottles.

Froggys juice seemed to work well, although it does have a slight odor when your standing in the thick of it. Im still impressed especially after this last fog test at how there is little to no residue on the kitchen tile.
Ill try trimming down the bag some and see what happens.

I dont plan on painting it just yet. No need to camouflage it for my application.

I used more of a sweep for the elbow. They had a short and long elbow and i went with the longer one. I didnt see any true sweeps at either the Depot or Lowes. I posted all of my pics on Flickr. Tried Photobucket and Imageshack but they both only let you upload 1 pic at a time. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Nope didn't do any "dances with fog", but i did walk through it and it doesn't take much to make it swirl. Im going to give it another shot tonight with the blacklights and blue and green Par lights and see how it all looks. Im hoping the fog glows like most of the other white objects do.

The box the fogger is sitting on i made out of an old computer tower. Its the metal cover for the tower cut to the exact height needed to center the fogger nozzle with the inlet and outlet pipes.

The height from the ground to the center of both pipes is 7 3/4". I tried a little something during this last test and made up a 3" x 2" reducer on the inlet. It helped some in reducing the backwash. It seems with the added ice and subsequent restriction, that im getting a little more backwash than i was before. I may try some kind of check valve/flapper and see how it works.

I did run into one little glitch with drilling the 2 holes at the same height. The top of the elbow on the inlet pipe is where my ice tray rests on. As you can see in my pics, i only ran the tray around on 3 sides and just rested it on the elbow. The 3/4" PVC pipe then runs just about 1/2 its width down in front of the outlet hole. Not a big deal and it certainly doesn't seem to affect the operation of the chiller.
I hope to try and get some video of the test tonight with the lights. If it comes out well ill upload it to youtube.


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## Fright Zone

Good job!

Yeah it would be fun to see the light set up even in a kitchen.

I think it was a good idea you stuck with the 60 qt instead of the smaller 50 qt that was on sale (which is really the 48 qt with a taller lid and no drain).

It looks like the 3" holes worked great with the 60 qt and 1000W fogger.

It'll be interesting to see how you think it does on a large dance floor. It should be fine. 

It'd be nice to see how it does outside in the chilly NE but you don't want to use anymore expensive fluid than you need to.

I had a similar tray leg problem with the fourth side of my tray on the small 12qt so I just left off a leg. I didn't even bother to zip tie the hardware cloth the the frame.

I tested it with a 400W fogger and 9 trays of freezer ice cubes with the tray height at 1/2 the chiller. It worked pretty well. It's comparable to a 48 qt just not shooting as much fog out as far or as thick. I may put photos up. It's nice for a mini chiller to play with or hook up to a cauldron or fog a small 10 ft square area without having to keep filling the ice up in one of those low lying foggers they sell at Wal-mart and Target etc. But those units work fine indoors. You just have to keep putting ice in them.


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## LOTL

Well i worked on the backwash issue at the inlet. While my flap idea failed miserably, the venturi i made up using a straight section of 3" pipe seemed to be an improvement especially with the fogger right up against the pipe.

FZ you had to make me do the fog dance. As i did my best simulated dance floor moves, the low lying fog didn't want to stay so low anymore. It would swirl up to head level and pretty much stay there. Dam always something. Add 30 people dancing around and between the body heat and air movement, i think my idea may be in trouble. Posted another few pics of the venturi and flap idea and another video with the blacklights and pars doing their thing. Nope no video of my dance moves sorry.
New Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
Fog & Light Show:


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## Fright Zone

Someone on here put a flap on the pipe inside the chiller. For the life of me I can't recall what they used or how well it worked. But your pseudo venturi simply drilling holes looks like it worked well. I may try that myself instead of using the wye adapter. I was getting backwash out of a double wye last night. The guy next door thought there was a fire when I tested the 12qt chiller on my porch late this afternoon. He said it was low to the ground  Mission accomplished.

You obviously got good results at least for a graveyard scene if you ever put one up. Good documentation to show everyone that combination of a 60qt Igloo, 3" PVC, ice cubes, trash bag on the outlet, VEI 930 1000W fogger and Froggy's Fog Juice is a winner whether it works perfectly for your dance purposes or not I still think it was a good thing to build. You should get some use out of it. But let us know after Hallloween how the dance fog worked out. I still think it will create some nice Halloween atmosphere and is better than shooting fog straight out of the fogger and up all over the place. This should still linger more and provide atmosphere instead of looking like something's on fire. Since this stage of production is for testing and experimenting, I don't know if putting the chiller up higher on a table or counter top to drop the fog down out of the chiller would be any advantage. I tried holding my little 12 qt and 400W fogger up last night and it defintely drops right down very thick right to the ground. But I didn't walk thru it either. I walked around the porch with that mini setup and had fun spreading fog all over the porch. You obviously coudln't do that wiht a 60qt.


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## SpectreTTM

I'd like to build one of these but by the time I read all 593 entries Halloween 
will be over.

Can someone please boil this down to a simple design /conclusion?


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## airscapes

http://65.78.32.161:888/cube_chiller/index.html


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## Fright Zone

^ I'm not convinced. I think we need another 60 pages to sort this thing out LOL :googly: 

^^ airscapes shows the basic idea well (and so does airscapes and LOTL's youtube fog chillers in-action videos). The reason it's the Thread of the Undead is the slight variations, different sizes, slightly different placement and sizes of the inlet & outlet, attachments, the amount & type of ice used and the wattage of fogger & fog juice. 

All those variables are slight variations on the basic idea of:
A) A container with a lid that's sealed to keep fog from leaking out
B) And inside of that container (insulated or not doesn't matter) is an ice tray that has holes in it
C) Which separates a freezing chamber on the top portion inside
D) From a fog expansion chamber on the bottom portion inside
E) And keeping those chambers separate via the use of a 90 degree bend or sweep pipe up to the top freezing chamber 
F) Whose hole is located perpendicular to a short straight pipe that's centered in the bottom expansion chamber
G) And making sure there's natural air convection on the chosen inlet pipe 
H) From a fog machine whose nozzle is centered into the inlet pipe and either 2" to 3" away from the inlet
I) Or right up against a psuedo venuturi wye adapter or a PVC pipe with holes in it

All of the DIY experimentation and specific measurements concerning each one of those areas is a result of different people tackling the same Vortex Chiller design idea with the materials and tools they want to use or have on hand or are willing to spend time and money on short of just buying a Vortex product because that wouldn't be any fun.


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## LOTL

I keep seeing all these long thread remarks. I participated in a thread at the AVS forums back when i was in the market for a HDTV. Its now up to 638 pages. 60 is nothing, sit down read a little, take a few notes and enjoy.
If its something you are really interested in and want to learn what worked for others then read up. FZ has posted his synopsis a few times recently in this thread and others when this same question was asked recently. Read the last 5 or 10 pages and check out some of our links and you'll get a good idea of how to build it. Feel free to ask specific questions once your ready to build.


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## tcarter

SpectreTTM said:


> I'd like to build one of these but by the time I read all 593 entries Halloween
> will be over.
> 
> Can someone please boil this down to a simple design /conclusion?


Hard to do. depends on what you want and need.

Here are my 2 new fog chillers for this year and my 2¢ which I think I may have contributed to this thread a couple of times already.




























Here's a low-down on how I built mine and Why I did it this way. I made 2 of them, using 50 qt. coolers. I am running 2 700W Gemmy Fog Machines. This set up may not work as well for a larger fog machine but I'm sure by just using a larger container it will.

I experimented a bit last year with things. I made one with a large Sterilite tote with the ice tray and all that stuff, and a smaller one out of a 24 qt. bucket-like container. I found the larger one, made with the tote, to cool the fog better than the smaller one, but the volume wasn't as good, presumably because of the large space relative to the output of my fog machine. I just think it was too big. Also the tote was too flimsy, and one of the latches on the lid broke so I decided to make 2 new ones for this year.

As far as the ice tray goes, My experience was that I got better results by omitting it completely, and just filling the container about 3/4 of the way with ice. I also found, that by adding an elbow to the outlet, inside the cooler, helped with keeping ice from blocking it, and gave a little better output, so for my new ones, I kept this part of the design. I just zip-tied a little window screen over the opening to keep ice out of it. The photo doesn't show this, but during operation, I will turn the elbow so the opening is facing more toward the bottom of the cooler, this also helped create a small space void of ice around the opening.

The reason I have the inlet pipe going up to the top of the cooler is because my set up requires a small area in which to operate this so I needed to place the fog machine on top of the cooler rather than next to it. I have sealed the lid simply by wrapping some black tape around the lip about 3 or 4 times. It helped with the leakage, but there it still a minimal pencil-thin stream that leaks out around the hinge, whoopy doo!. And the flow back from the inlet pipe is, in my opinion minimal, and not worth my effort to try and eliminate or minimize any further. I used 2" pipe for the inlet and 3" pipe coupler for the outlet. I used the 3" coupler, and elbows, because I had those from a previous fog chiller I had made, so I recycled them, Also, I will be attaching a vent hose to the outlet to direct the fog, and the hose fit snugly over the coupler. I didn't bother taking photos of the thing in operation, because still photos don't really show much, and I don't have a video camera. Trust me, the output of mine are the same as the umpteen thousand others out there.

Now, all that being said, If reading through all this stuff and figuring all this out doesn't appeal to you, and If space isn't an issue for you, then just take a large diameter pipe, fill it with ice, pump your fog into it, and be done with it. I filled a vinyl dryer vent hose with ice once. That was it, just the hose and ice and it chilled the fog beautifully. All of these different designs for fog chillers are good, but in the end, you just need a way to pump fog through the ice to cool it. If you really watch all the videos, and photos of the results of any of the different fog chiller designs, you'll find that they all look like pretty much the same results. It just depends on what you want to do for YOUR needs. Personally, I think fog chilling for the purpose of a thick ground cover is something that's nearly impossible to achieve. I think it's more that cooled fog looks thicker, hence more "realistic" even if it isn't hugging the ground due to wind or whatever reason, so that's why I use the chillers. And I went through this stuff only because I required a design that was more compact than a 4 or 5 or 6 foot long pipe or hose. And probably because, I'm nuts and like to go through a bunch of work, to find out for myself that it isn't worth the time. it took me about 1 1/2 hours to throw these 2 chillers together this year, but last year, I messed around with it for about 4 or 5 days, plus a couple of days of experimenting with the operation. I'm done with this stuff now, and in the future, If I need to make a new one. I think I'll just go pick up a dryer vent hose, and a bag of ice.


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## Fright Zone

That illustrates the point that there's no one steadfast how-you-do-it solution. Admittedly it's confusing as to what to try. But if you follow the basic guidelines and get fog into a cooling chamber filled with ice (realizing the ice will melt and you get a lot of water) and pipe it out of the chiller anything you do specifically to construct the chiller and additions to inlets and outlets is all DIY ingenuity for the results you want. And I agree like I said before chilled fog won't always give you the hugging-the-ground effect based on wind and weather but it will definitely make the fog heavier, slower, lay lower overall and be visually thicker because it lingers longer than fog right out of the fog machine. So overall that's why people try different variations to the same basic conclusion. A lot of times based on what materials and tools they have laying around or repurpose or have found or been given. I don't have any screen door mesh for example otherwise I'd try tcarter's solution. The two different diameters of PVC and ABS is interesting also. And once again the more powerful the fogger and the more ice you can use the larger the area of the fog effect. But even the smallest fogger and chiller can produce chilled fog just in a smaller output area.


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## trexmgd

Wow, great thread.
A couple of questions... 
1)Is there an updated link to the Vortex chiller manual referenced in the first post?
2)Is there any "Loss" by plumbing the foggers to sit on top of the cooler? That is, with the extra elbows and forcing the fog down, when it would go up. Is there any reason for doing this other than saving space?
3)Does anyone think there is any real advantage to using a cooler over, say a rubbermaid container? While a cooler or icebox may keep the ice for upto 5 days, it won't really make it any colder inside, right? Seems to me you could save alot of the cost by using a cheap tote over a costly cooler (except for those that find them by the side of the road  ).


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## airscapes

Answers to your questions is if you are using a 400watt toy fogger you get issues with to big a cooler and to long a run. If you are using a 1200 watt pro unit, you will be fine.


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## tcarter

trexmgd said:


> Wow, great thread.
> A couple of questions...
> 1)Is there an updated link to the Vortex chiller manual referenced in the first post?
> 2)Is there any "Loss" by plumbing the foggers to sit on top of the cooler? That is, with the extra elbows and forcing the fog down, when it would go up. Is there any reason for doing this other than saving space?
> 3)Does anyone think there is any real advantage to using a cooler over, say a rubbermaid container? While a cooler or icebox may keep the ice for upto 5 days, it won't really make it any colder inside, right? Seems to me you could save alot of the cost by using a cheap tote over a costly cooler (except for those that find them by the side of the road  ).


My experience with the tote, or Rubbermaid container, is that they are too flimsy, and when filled with ice the sides tend to bow out, which causes the lid to not fit snugly. Also the flimsiness causes issues with the stability of the pipes going into and out of it. but as I said, I made one out of a sterilite container and it worked ok.
I haven't noticed any significant loss of volume from the fogger on top of the cooler, and in my case, space was the only reason I did it that way. I'm hiding my chiller inside of tree stumps for scenery, so I needed it to be compact.


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## gmacted

trexmgd said:


> Wow, great thread.
> A couple of questions...
> 1)Is there an updated link to the Vortex chiller manual referenced in the first post?
> 2)Is there any "Loss" by plumbing the foggers to sit on top of the cooler? That is, with the extra elbows and forcing the fog down, when it would go up. Is there any reason for doing this other than saving space?
> 3)Does anyone think there is any real advantage to using a cooler over, say a rubbermaid container? While a cooler or icebox may keep the ice for upto 5 days, it won't really make it any colder inside, right? Seems to me you could save alot of the cost by using a cheap tote over a costly cooler (except for those that find them by the side of the road  ).


1)Check out post #124 for the link.


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## Fright Zone

Yes like airscapes said a 400W fogger isn't strong enough to be able to put it on top of the lid going into two elbows or sweeps like tcarter shows on the previous page. airscapes shows how his high wattage American DJ 1200W fogger in his 



 handles being placed on top just fine.
I tried my 400W on the lid of a 48 qt Igloo and it didn't pump out enough fog compared to when the fogger was on the ground next to the inlet pipe. And depending on how large the lid and the fogger is it's hard to fit even the smallest fogger right on top (tcarter, does your 700W fit on the lid of the small 50 qt or does the fogger overhang the lid so you have to put a board or something on the lid to keep it level?)

That's a good point about the coolers not being flimsy is one reason we use them instead of plastic containers at a larger size. The Vortex Fusion product is made out of non-insulated thin-walled plastic. But the size and shape I guess is optimal for it not to have issues like tcarter mentioned the Sterlite containers can have. And I guess the plastic is rigid enough to hold the ice and ABS pipes they use. And a lot of us use the Igloo Ice Cube coolers because I noticed the shape mimics the Vortex Fusion (kind of tall and rectangular compared to a regular cooler or Sterlite container that's rectangular and horizontal). And it's relatively compact so it you have to hide it like tcarter's it's easier to do that. Also to store. And it just looks cool. I'm not sure if the shape (the 48qt is square while the 60qt is more rectangular than a "cube") really matters or not. But it gives you two nice chambers of ice and fog expansion inside. Note that gmacted and his high wattage constant fogger did well with 60 lbs of ice which required the largest cooler he could find which was a 120qt rectangular. But in most cases people don't use constant foggers with that much ice so the Igloo Ice Cube Cooler when it's on sale at the end of the Summer is a good one to work with. And as far as being insulated, the ice gets hot and melts slowly when the hot fog touches it anyway. So the insulated aspect of a cooler isn't really the reason why coolers are used I don't think. When the fogger isn't on I suppose the ice will keep longer in a cooler. But the aforementioned rigidity makes coolers modifiable without compromising the shape, good lid closure and drains on most of them etc. I think it's kind of a coincidence they're normally used to hold ice cubes. Although that might have been the reason someone tried a cooler in the first place years ago.

It's the type of thing if time is money then might as well just buy an overpriced Vortex product if it fits the budget. Otherwise have fun figuring out and building a DIY vortex-style or other style chiller.


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## tcarter

yes, my fogger sits on top just perfectly. no overhang at all


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## Fright Zone

That's good to know. I looked up a photo of a test I did with the 400W Gemmy on top of a 48qt Igloo and sweeps instead of elbows. I used the psuedo venturi double wye adapter on the inlet because the wind would destroy the fog output if I used a 2-3" gap between the nozzle and the inlet pipe. The regular 400W Gemmy size as opposed to the smaller Mini just barely fit on the lid as seen here. It's a neat looking package. But ultimately I think the combo of the low wattage fogger, psuedo venturi and the sweeps didn't force the fog through the chiller hard enough when I tested it and didn't produce enough fog on the outlet. I don't know if elbows or sweeps make a big difference. Ironically using sweeps makes the design less compact because they stick out too far compared to elbows. I hadn't thought about the venturi that LOTL made of a couple pages back when this was done last year. I'm making one of his this weekend from a straight pipe with holes in it. But I think the basic concept that airscapes mentioned above is that a 400W fogger is very limited to put on top. It works fine on the ground. One of these days I'll get a real high wattage fogger! But this photo is interesting just to see what the set-up looked like. It looks like it means business. But it failed to produce with the 400W Gemmy. So it was fired LOL


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## Lunatic

*Wow, I'm dizzy reading this thread!*

I haven't checked this thread for a while. It's nice to see it still has mega interest. God bless each and everyone of you for keeping it alive!

I think FZ summed it up by stating that with all of the R&D conducted during this thread it ended up mostly with the same results. As long as you push the hot fog through a permeable ice wall you should see good results. It just depends on how much fog one wants to produce will dictate how big your fogger and chiller should be and how much juice you want to spend. My 60 qt Cubes with 2" inlet/outlet, 2" expansion chamber on top, a few inches of space at the bottom, with 30 pounds quality icecubes(no small pieces to clog) in the middle, 700 watt cheapo F/X foggers on top of the cooler lid with 90 degree sweeps into the side and up towards the lid of the chiller works quite well for me and I'm not changing it. It appears to be the right power output for the size. Thanks again for everyone's input!


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## BigDave

I just read the ENTIRE thread and it wasn't that bad (2hours max) and well worth it for all the info.


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## BigDave

*Anybody Try the 60 QT with a VEI-950*

I am probably going to get the VEI-950 and I was wondering if anyone tried the 60 QT with the 950. I know gmacted has a 950, but he is using a 120 QT "modified Vortex" chiller. I wondering if the 60 is big enough for the 950.


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## gmacted

BigDave said:


> I am probably going to get the VEI-950 and I was wondering if anyone tried the 60 QT with the 950. I know gmacted has a 950, but he is using a 120 QT "modified Vortex" chiller. I wondering if the 60 is big enough for the 950.


Was it my video that convinced you to buy the V-950? The fogger is awesome!

I give you a lot of credit for reading the entire thread. It does have a lot of great information. Too bad a lot of the links are now dead.

As far as your question regarding the 60 quart cooler. I don't have a direct answer, but I do know that I easily fill mine (120 quart) with ~60 lbs of ice and the fog eats a huge hole in it by the end of the night. I do run it constantly for at least 4 hours and there is very little ice in it the next night (I never open it up until the next night when I get home from work. I hide it behind some bushes and it's hard to get to otherwise I would open it and look.). You may be OK with a 60 Qt, but you also may need to add more ice before the night is over. It all depends on if you plan on running it constantly and for how long. If you can access it and don't mind adding ice if needed you should be good to go.

Just curious, what chiller design do you plan on using?


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## BigDave

*Modified Vortex*

I am planning on building the "modified" Vortex (i.e. switching the input/output). I am also planning on using 3" PVC and putting 2" reducers to test which is better.

I also don't plan on building an ice shelf. Just fill the bottom 2/3 with ice. I see no need for an expansion area at the bottom. The fog has already expanded as much as it can by that point.

gmacted - I never did see your video, but I just like the idea of never ending fog. I still may chicken out and save some money and get the 930 or 940. I ride in a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans and I still have big bucks to spend on my throws for that.


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## Fright Zone

That sounds good! Actually I think all of our DIY Vortex style chillers are modified  To keep things straight we were refering to that set-up you'll use as the Reverse Inlet Setup. In other words the inlet is the 90 degree bend pipe instead of the Vortex product intended inlet which is the straight pipe. So it's the "Reverse" of what the original design intented. Even though the chiller works either way. You just don't get as much backwash using the Reverse Inlet set-up. I refered to gmacted's 120qt as a "modified" Vortex style design. Which in reality is a Fog on the Rocks Chiller variation which is one of the original DIY fog chillers that used an ice cooler prior to the Vortex product design solution.

I made a couple pipes with 3/4" holes drilled in them like LOTL's psuedo venturi for the inlet I'm going to try. I'm also going to try not using an ice tray like tcarter suggested to see what happens. I won't use his 90 degree bend pointed downward. I'll just use the straight pipe that's in the chiller. And place a piece of hardware mesh over it if the ice tries to fall out but it shouldn't. It should be true that using the Reverse Inlet Setup makes for a fog expansion area inside so the ice tray isn't needed afterall. Whereas the tray IS needed for the Original or Intended Inlet Setup in order to create the lower fog expansion area as the fog goes up thru the ice tray instead of down thru it and out. 

That's why we keep this thread alive. Always something new and fun to try. Especially when someone new comes around like LOTL and BigDave


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## Moon Dog

Just to clarify... is the reversed Vortex built the same way, just used in the reverse direction?

Thanks!


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## BigDave

Moon Dog said:


> Just to clarify... is the reversed Vortex built the same way, just used in the reverse direction?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes


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## Fright Zone

Yes essentially, Except now like we discovered over the last two pages the ICE TRAY itself may not be, and probably isn't, necessary to build as part of the chiller construction if you use the Reverse Inlet Setup or Reverse Vortex Design whichever name you prefer. So technically there is that difference between a Reverse and an Original Vortex Design setup. But otherwise it IS the same design, construction and concept. Like BigDave and tcarter pointed out there's the necessary fog expansion at the top of the inside of the chiller using the Reverse Vortex Inlet Setup (the 90 degree bend as the inlet). So just try dumping ice in the bottom of the chiller WITHOUT building an ice tray. Which admittedly with PVC fitting measurments can be a pain to measure, cut and put together. It'd be a lot easier to just dump ice in the chiller. On paper it makes complete sense. But I haven't tried it myself with my fogger and chillers yet to say for certain mine will work well that way. I'm still using the lowest common denominator 400W Gemmy fogger. Which actually isn't bad becasue we know what little power you can be successful using. A high wattage fogger should work no matter what. Either way an ice tray is easily added or removed if built. There will always be that doubt in your mind what works best. But like we said eariler it probably won't make a huge difference in the output. It's a matter of what's convenient, what you want to build or what will satisfy your DIY curiosity.


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## LOTL

Well curiosity got the better of me and i picked up a 45 degree 3" elbow today.
I put it inside on the outlet pipe facing down towards the bottom of the chiller. Its about a 1/2" higher than the drain, so hopefully with a level cooler itll drain out O.K.
I wanted the bottom of the 45 to be above the drain and thats why i went with it instead of the 90. It was about 1" or so shorter than the 90. With the 45 or 90 facing down, im not even sure theres a need to put a screen over it and if there is i think id rather use the 1/4" wire mesh that i used for the tray. 
I removed the ice tray and will try packing as much ice as will fit in there and see if the colder fog will stay put with activity in the middle of it. Probably wont get to it till the weekend. 
Has anyone tried the hotel ice maker or McDonald's ice cubes? I remember stopping by a McDonald's one time years ago and asking them to fill a cooler full of ice. They did it for nothing i believe. May have to try that and see if they will go for it. Maybe offer them 5 bucks to fill the Igloo 60 Qt.


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## Fright Zone

Playing devil's advocate: The only thing I can see happening with all that ice on the bottom sans the ice tray is all the more ice to melt at the bottom and turn into lots of water. But if you leave the drain plug open to go to a hose it could drain it a little I'd think. But you'll be fogging indoors. And I wonder how well coolers drain like that without having to tilt it to get all the water out.

Ice-wise: A local Burger King was selling bags of ice last year. I jokingly told the manager what I was planning on using ice for. I told them it was for Trick-or-Treat (which is was) but I think that appealed to the lady. She said she'd just give me a couple 7 lb bags for free. But my yard haunt was out of town for ToT so I couldn't take her up on it. But if you tell them it's for ToT and the kids they may just fill it up if you talk to the manager. Maybe say you'll buy a booklet of gift certificates for ToT or something.

All I know is the Wal-Mart bagged ice sticks together too much compared to freezer ice cubes.


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## Moon Dog

Cool, I have to 48 qt coolers that I'm going to make chillers out of.

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, but it's though to keep up 
with all the reading!


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## CountZero

Dr Morbius said:


> It would super cool it for a short period of time..best to add salt to wet ice.


Been a while since I posted in this thread, but I'm still tinkering with the "modified vortex design" and super cooling of fog. I did Try rock salt in the ice last year, and it DID have a noticeable effect on the temp in the cooler. I dont have photos, but we ended up with visibally thichker denser fog, and the temperatures we shot with an IR thermometer were lower in the cooler than just plain ice. The only problem we had was with the melting, which needs to happen to super cool the cooler. It ended up melting a bit more than I had hoped and we ended up with a little overflow out the output tube. Which leads me to my "Important Safety Tip for the Day"

If you want to try rock salt to super cool your fog this year, BE CAREFUL NEAR PLANTS. The salty runoff from the cooler as well as some of the salty condensation from the output hose WILL do bad things to plants. If you aren't near plants or grass you should be Ok, but if you want to shoot over a lawn, I'd just stay with plain ice. We beat up a small tree last year and it took the better part of an entire year to get back to normal.

On a more directly related note, as I have more time this year to play, I will be doing some side by site tests of the modified vortex design in a 60Q cooler with a 400w "Wal-Mart" fogger, a 1200W MBT fogger and a 1700W Chauvet fogger. I will also take IR temp readings of the cooler interior temp and the fog temp at output. I'm also planning on doing some testing with a single fogger with and without the ice shelf. All tests will be done side by side and I'll take as many photos as I can. If there is anything that you all would like tested, I'd be more than happy to throw it into the test plan. I'm pretty sure that there is a little more efficiency that can be squeezed out of this design. The biggest help last year for volume for me was adding a garbage bag to the output. I'm interested in testing to see if there is an optimal size for that as well. 

Happy Fogging.

CountZ


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## Nancj

OMG! I think I've gone crosseyed, I'm going to try this this weekend. I don't think I can get any more info on this topic or my head will explode.
wish me luck.


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## Fright Zone

^^ Sounds good Count! One test I'd do if you had time is to take the 90 degree bend out and the ice tray, fill the chiller with ice maybe halfway then all the way to see what effect it has on the output not having the 90 degree bend just two straights going into and out of ice at perpendicular angles. I bet there's a lot of backwash but I bet the fog finds its way out the other pipe just a matter of how much. I'm thinking that way because look at the Gemmy video link below. It goes from nozzle straight to ice then out.

Good luck everyone making them for the first time like LOTL did.

I put up video clips of last year's initial [nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrWuIPa3U8[/nomedia] including one that shows the fog straight out of the fogger for those new to fog chilling who wonder what the big difference is and one of the [nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKzwI1EYKDo[/nomedia] (I posted elsewhere but I'll include it in this thread for those who read it in the future) that got me started on the whole fog chilling thing and made me decide to go build the Igloo version. Not ground-breaking. But it's a look back on what got me started.

I may do new videos with my new 12qt or old 48qt that explain the Vortex-style Igloo Chillers functionality, construction or anatomy as if someone were looking at it for the first time instead of just showing it in action. It'll be hard not to go off on all the DIY tangents of measurements, different coolers or container types and sizes, PVC sizes, inlet vs outlet, ice tray or none, venuturi variations or inlet gap, trash bag sizes or none at all. It's easier to videotape during the day but dicier because the whole neighborhood can see the fog and may call the fire dept. On second thought maybe I won't do it!  Or maybe I'll wait 'til Halloween to get away with it.


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## LOTL

Well i managed to get that test done this afternoon.
After removing the ice tray and putting in the 45 elbow on the outlet pipe.
I filled the cooler full of ice and gave it another test in my kitchen.
There was absolutely no improvement and i actually think it made things worse.
If i bother to use this thing at all, itll be with the ice tray installed.
As i mention in the video, i think these things are best suited for outdoor haunts and not for D.J.'s looking for a cool dance floor effect.
I did finish timing how long it took for the fog to dissipate after the last blast and it was between 5-6 mins. Not that it matters as there was a good deal of fog that rose up and leaked out the top of the chiller that could set off smoke alarms.




Check out the last 4 photos of this latest mod Fog Chiller - a set on Flickr.


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## airscapes

you need to do short blasts .. to much speed on fog blast blast blast blast stop
wait a little and do it again. But with 8' ceilings.. you are going to have stuff hanging up there..


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## meestercranky

the 45 degree elbow is on the INLET. causing fog to rise above the ice, where it cools. Then falls through to the bottom portion which acts as a cloud chamber causing the fog to expand, which pushes it all out.

also, looks like you have a small chiller. Back the fog machine off from it a bit with a little extra pipe if need be. Experiement with that if you think it will helo but remember: hot fog goes UP so use the elblow piece as the inlet.


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## Fright Zone

@ LOTL - you are havin' fun though aren't ya?  One thing you'll notice even though it may get kicked up or rise ts that's it noticeably lingers sort of like a haze when it's chilled compared to straight out of the fogger. But if that's not the effect you wish to achieve it wont' matter. But that's what I've found. Chilled fog is better than right out of the fogger any old day. And that's not a small chilelr you got. 60 qts is the largest Cube they make.

@ meestercranky - I'd have to see in pictures what you mean by a 45 on the inlet minus the ice tray. I think what you're saying is the 45 points up with mesh on it and the ice is dumped over it but the idea is that the fog will push it's way thru the ice with help from the 45 pointing relatively up instead of a an ice tray and a 90 degree pipe going up thru the ice?


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## meestercranky

it's simple. The inlet has an elbow inside the cooler. It comes up thru the ice tray. The hot fog rises and comes up the elbow and exits at ice level.

The fog cools and falls thru the ice. Then expands in the lower 2/3 of the icechest.

The fog is dumped out of the inlet at ice level see? and then cools and falls.

The elbow is just to get the fog above the ice.


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## Fright Zone

That's where the confusion came in. You just described the Vortex-style chiller that we're all familiar with. LOTL and I are thinking of tcarter's alternative set-up or modification if you will without the ice tray & the 90 degree bend thru it. Using a 45 degree elbow on the outlet in place of it. See his explanation and photos on page 60. I think that's what LOTL tried and it didn't work for him. But tcarter I suppose it did work the way he intended. And without looking back until now I confused you with tcarter thinking it was your idea in the first place and you were correcting LOTL's interpretation of the set-up in the post above. So I was confused. I haven't tried that set-up yet with my chiller. But I also only stil have a low wattage 400 wat fogger that may not be powerful enough anyway.


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## arcuhtek

*Vortex has arrived!*

So I am the sucker for all of you.....I finally purchased the infamous Vortex Pro Chiller....and it arrived today. I am going to test it later on tonight and take photos.

My first impression is that it is far less sophisticated than I expected.....but I did not expect anything scientific. Since this is being sold as a professionally built chiller (hey...if you earn money from it...its professional) I did expect the joints of the piping to be sealed, including at the input and output penetrations. That is not the case. However, the craftsmanship is good (even though its a simple device). I was surprised to find plastic and pvc shavings. from drilling the penetrations, still inside the can. In other words they didnt even care enough to clean it out before shipping. Thats not a big deal...its less than a tablespoon...but in my opinion, it shows either a hurried job or a bit of carefree attitude.

I am a bit skeptical of how the lid will seal against the can during fogging. After looking at the construction, I am expecting some leakage, though I do not want any. There is an attempt to apply a small, almost paper thin, strip of weatherstripping around the underside of the lid. We shall see if this works, but I am betting I will have to apply duct tape or a sheet of plastic or something to seal it.

I know its a ridiculous price for what you get, but I have tried to build this myself using the coiling dryer vents and it did not work. The weight of the ice crushed the piping and the condensation inside the dryer pipe eventually caused enough water to block over half the 4" pipe area in various areas of the coil.

I will give them credit (or whomever invented it) their solution is much easier to build than mine. I worry that the open area in the mesh ice tray is too large to actually hold much ice or standard cube size. But I think it will be okay. I plan on testing a thick layer of ice cubes, a layer of dry ice and another layer of ice cubes as the overall set up.

Also, I expected the can to be painted or have a vortex logo on it.....not so. Its a RubberMaid Brute trash can right from the factory with no alterations other than what I described and maybe or or two more.

Oh one more thing. I decided to splurge for the Volumizing Ice Crystals, which I supsected to be nothing more than rock salt. It is this dark purple black stuff...that the mfr. admitted had sodium in it...but he said it had other stuff too. I think maybe it is just dyed rock salt. Not exactly sure how this works with the ice cubes....other than to sprinkle it on the ice cubes. But since there is large holes in the ice tray...how will it stay on the ice long enough to dissolve? There were no instructions with it. It was simply wrapped in layers of plastic wrap. No bag....nothing.

Call me a sucker if you want to....but at least you benefit from a working example!


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## Moon Dog

pass the salt...


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## airscapes

Um.. well I would be crying my eyes out, but you have a great attituded so more power to you, good luck with the chiller!


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## skeletonowl

That sounds kinda crappy to me...hope it turns out to be good


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## arcuhtek

Its not crappy....I am just giving it a fair critique. And as far as the comment on "crying my eyes out" I really do not understand. I have not even tested it yet. I would at least have to test it a few times before I get all emotional about it. Sheesh. Sure its expensive, but my time is worth something. Since this will be my third fog chiller...two previous ones I have built....at some point its worth not beating your head against a wall. For me anyway. If I apply my own billing rate to the amount of time I have spent on the first two chillers....this one is CHEAPER.


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## kruella

Add me to the sucker list!

I tried to build a trash can chiller last year and didn't get it right.
Out of frustration, I decided to buy the vortex this year. 

I bought the small vortex for $125 and 3 bags of the ice crystals. 
I haven't tried it yet. 
My chiller came with a vortex logo sticker on it


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## ScareFX

Looking forward to your review. As to buying vs. making...time is money so sometimes it is cheaper to buy if you get what you want.


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## halloweenguy

You have full support on this one  If it works as well as advertised and you can pass on a few tips on how to create our own from this design, then sounds good to me...Thanks for sharing!!!


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## Fright Zone

I agree. Thanx both of you guys for buying different ones so we can compare notes. I liked the honest critique examining what you expected and what you got. I also always say that time is money. So it's cheaper to buy an expensive one. But more fun to build your own. If I had never run across the Igloo Ice Cube Coolers I may not have built one. And if this forum wasn't here to share thoughts and notes and ideas I wouldn't have been as motivated to build one. I may have purchased the Vortex Fusion and saved a lot of time and thinking. But the Vortex DIY experience has been fun talking about to see all the personal modifications and experimentation. And in fact I probably would have felt like building some sort of DIY chiller Igloo Cube or not had I bought the Vortex products to see if a DIY construction could perform just as well. I think it can. I look forward to seeing photos or video or whatever you can provide at long last. As far as the instructions go ironically you can download the PDF within the Vortex Chiller Manual thread  Although you have to dig to find a current link.


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## Otaku

Here's a link to the Vortex manual - 
http://deathlord.net/vortexpage.htm
Click on the exclamation point (!) after the text "(60 lbs)".


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## BudMan

As for the sealing issue, maybe some foam weatherstripping around the top of the can, then snap the lid on.


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## beelce

I spent days refining my ice chest style chiller and I'm sure that I spent more money on the parts than the vortex cost, but I love to design and build...so it was fun and for now I will stick with what I got. It worked good (not Great).

Maybe the vortex is the best money spent after all. I do agree that If you buy a professional tool, they should at least blow the shavings out before shipping and please stick a logo decal of the thing so that we feel better about our purchase.


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## Otaku

On the other hand, why bother putting eye candy on the product? They already have your money. But I do agree, there's a degree of professionalism that's missing here.


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## Fright Zone

I've been a professional graphic designer specializing in product graphics, packaging and product merchandising (against my will ; ) so I can appreciate the importance of such things. It won't affect the way the product performs. But marketing identification and a company image are important if they want to sell more of those and make customers feel good about the purchase even if it is psychological. Esthetics are an important thing.


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## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> As far as the instructions go ironically you can download the PDF within the Vortex Chiller Manual thread  Although you have to dig to find a current link.


OK OK I got the hint. I updated the link in the Vortex Chiller Manual thread. Now no one has to dig through the thread to find it.

To be honest, I never thought of it, but now it's correct and no one will have any problems finding it. It's on the first post. It does seem to be a very popular thread. Long live the thread!


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## gmacted

For anyone interested. I updated the link on the first post of this thread to point to the Vortex Chiller manual on the deathlord.net web site. I just never thought to do it before.


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## arcuhtek

I agree on the logo, branding efforts...or lack thereof... Sure the product performance is not affected. But if you are charging this much for the product, one would think you would want your logo spread as far as possible...not to mention the fact that sometimes its worth a company's while to at least make the customer feel that something was complex and complicated, even if its simple. It would cut down on imposters, and the overall feeling that you just paid $450 for a trash can. But in reality you paid for R&D. Okay so even THAT is a bit much for this "company"...but lets face it....they DID design something that allegedly works that is far more simple and refined than anything I have seen on the internet (posted at least). Sure there are a lot of similar designs...but did anyone who built one of their own bother to turn it into a company? Did anyone get a patent? They claim to actually have a patent! That costs money. Anyway...all of us overpay for items each day, as a result of what it took to develop and market the product versus the actual cost to make the product. Take that soda you just drank....for example.

I did not get time to test the vortex today but I will tomorrow.


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## Fright Zone

^^ In reality from what I recall it started on the halloweenforum.com when I found the PDF in one of our chiller discussions. Then you started the thread here. When that one died down and told me about it so I came over here. I found the Igloo Cube resembled the shape of the Vortex and haven't left since  I'm glad you updated the link. It makes sense being it's the first post and the gist of the big thread.

^ The other reason they have to charge so much is they don't mass produce them or market them as good they could so the profit margin has to be higher. I doubt they're living in mansion selling these. I don't know how many of the chiller DIY-ers would have bought one instead of made one. And how many would have made one if we hadn't found the manual and paid attention to their Vortex photos and demo videos. Or who would have figured out the design anyway. You could always says that one could have bought the product and posted the manual and photos online and then haunters would DIY anyhow. To be fair I always tell people it saves time if you just buy one. It's not like we want to put them out of business.

I look forward to the tests. Now we have two threads about it. I can see this one getting larger as well.


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## airscapes

The US government has paid $500 for a toilet seat!!! .. with logo


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## Otaku

airscapes said:


> The US government has paid $500 for a toilet seat!!! .. with logo


Must have been a lot of R&D involved...

Seriously, as an R&D engineer in the medical device arena, I do understand what development costs are like. You can run up hecka money on doomed research and dead ends, and after you find the design you're looking for, there's optimization costs. Vendors gouge you for one-off materials and machining runs, or you have to buy 1000' of something to get the 10' you need for proof-of-concept bench tests. Of course, doing one's R&D in a garage instead of a well-equipped lab can help reduce costs dramatically. And in this case, there don't appear to be any minimums on the off-the-shelf materials purchases. Looking at just the cost of materials, the Vortex is very overpriced. It's what happens when sales are low, and the company wants to recoup R&D costs ASAP. Given the feedback and fog chiller questions on this and other forums, I get the sense that many would prefer to buy a well-performing chiller rather than DIY if the price was reasonable. I think that the Vortex would likely have a better market going after the volume sales. For example, I think that in the years I've known about the Vortex product and have been posting on forums, I can think of only two individuals that have purchased a Vortex. Perhaps the pro haunts are the bulk of the sales.


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## Fright Zone

To that point I also know of very few who have purchased the Vortex products. It's in the nature of DIY yard haunters who post on forums to simply DIY when they can and then on top of it try to personalize it and tweak it to try get better performance out of it. But honestly I would have bought a Fusion in the first place if it was sold at a lower price point logo or no logo (regardless of the time is money concept of building one). And then I would have spray painted it black. And added chrome wheels to it. And neon lights. And a boom box. And a trash bag on the outlet LOL I wonder how much they'd charge for an "outlet accessory" like a trash bag. Maybe $50 in your choice of black or white?


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## frstvamp1r

Well me personally I can't afford to pay for any of the vortex chillers. But if it wasn't for all the heated, sometimes funny, and outright interesting posts about the Vortex Chillers and different styles of Fog Chillers and techniques and methods and ideas I would not have figured out how it was done. I have made 3 chillers, all different styles, including the Vortex style. The vortex style only cost me the price of the Rubbermaid Bin, some PVC, and a round barbeque grid. Still alot cheaper than $400+. I guess what I am saying is, at least for me, it is cheaper to build it than to buy it, but that's just my thoughts on it.


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## Severin

Fright Zone said:


> I wonder how much they'd charge for an "outlet accessory" like a trash bag. Maybe $50 in your choice of black or white?


LMAO!


----------



## airscapes

Here's what get's me.. "Buy our $450 Vortex Chill with magic salt crystals" and your 400 watt $25 fogger will make 2 x the fog.. 
A pro grade fogger will blast the pants off the hallween toy foggers....
For those who don't get it.. 1 cube chiller = $50, 1 pro fogger = $150-$200 
Now do the math.. 
If I had $450 to buy a trash can, I could build 2 cube chillers, buy 2 pro foggers and go out with my wife for lobster dinner.. 
or I can buy a trash can.
It is nice to be able to have the $ to spend on your hobby, god knows I waste enough, it is just not a good feeling when you see people dupped by over priced, over rated gimics. Yes this votex desing works well, but it is the fog machine that is the most important part .... 

Sorry for my negative reaction to this post/purchas but is strikes me like the $600 pentagon hammer.. 
Since I am not really helping here, I will refrain from anymore comments.


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## Dreadnight

I have the "standard" level Vortex. Personally I think you'll be very happy with the results.


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## Dreadnight

^ The other reason they have to charge so much is they don't mass produce them or market them as good they could so the profit margin has to be higher. I doubt they're living in mansion selling these. I don't know how many of the chiller DIY-ers would have bought one instead of made one. And how many would have made one if we hadn't found the manual and paid attention to their Vortex photos and demo videos. Or who would have figured out the design anyway. You could always says that one could have bought the product and posted the manual and photos online and then haunters would DIY anyhow. To be fair I always tell people it saves time if you just buy one. It's not like we want to put them out of business.

I look forward to the tests. Now we have two threads about it. I can see this one getting larger as well.[/QUOTE]

I know Wil and no, he is certainly not living in a mansion. He runs a funiture store in Santa Maria and he's just another hooked haunter like the rest of us who decided to market some haunt products. He's a good guy.


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## Dr Morbius

I'm sure he's a good guy, and this may not be a mansion, but is this his house?








This is the house he says is Shock Manor, his home haunt. Pretty nice house though, and I'll bet it costs a fortune here in California. I doubt the Vortex paid for it, he has a high end furniture store. He makes good money, for sure.


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## Otaku

Being an engineer, building my own stuff is second-nature. However, not all of us want to make an investment in the tools needed to build a fog chiller or risk screwing up a $30-$40 cooler with a lot of false starts and having to buy another. As I said before, given the cost and availability of the Vortex components and the amount of time that should go into building one (and having built a couple of chillers, I know how much time that comes to), the price is just ridiculous. I'm sure that Wil has his reasons for charging that much. My opinion is just that he's chosen the wrong business model.


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## Dr Morbius

More pics of his home here:
http://www.deathlord.net/Haunts/2000haunt.htm
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not posting this to slam Wil, not at all! I just had to laugh when I read "he doesn't live in a mansion." To me, this comes pretty darn close.


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## ScareFX

> ...
> Now we have two threads about it. I can see this one getting larger as well.


Maybe not for long. This topic may be merged with the other thread.


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## arcuhtek

Well I dont think it matters where he lives.....though it is nice that people start off by bringing that into the mix. I happen to live in a mansion, http://www.chileshouse.com but that does not mean my money is any different than others. It means I have another hobby of buying old houses and renovating them. It means my time IS money....and I dont have time to perfect a halloween prop. I knew from the very start that I was overpaying for the vortex. Sometimes my curiosity gets the best of me. Heck I just paid $250 bucks for a wicked laser.....its scheduled to arrvie today and I cannot wait.

I offered my feedback, and will continue to do so, just like my very first post says.....to your benefit. So you dont have to pay for your own curiosity. You can bet I will be painting my vortex....I have already thought about ways to add about 1 to 2 inches of insulation around the inner perimeter to help with heat gain or loss. I am still trying to determine if that will be helpful or detrimental. In fact I think it will help the design below the ice tray but hurt it above the ice tray. But thats another story.

I knew this post would bring out the supporters and the non-supporters. To each their own. I know my first trash can chiller DIY cost me along the lines of $50-$70 bucks in materials, plus about 5 hours of time. Now its a hunk of junk in my garage. I need to throw it away. The Vortex is much cleaner, much better put together (than I can do), and because it consists of fewer components than that damned crushed dryer vent....less can go wrong with it. I think there is a higher chance that it will work as well as mine did (until it broke in about 1 hour)......and actually last. I am hoping that it really does work.

In truth, I would be very interested in the CITC Polar Controller http://www.avgiant.com/CITC-Polar-Controller-Low-Ground-Fog-Machine which costs $5,000. Will I ever buy one...no way. Wil I always want one..yes. Why....because its professionally made, it requires not continuous trips to buy dry ice (which is hard to find here) or standard ice...or making your own mass quantities.....plus there is always modifications to the one I have.....etc. The Polar Controller...is unbelievable. Is it over priced for what it is...heck yes. I know what the design is....and one could be built for $500 plus time.

Maybe I am just the guy who feels like he got his moneys worth because I purchased it versus building it. How much is that trash bag outlet? LOL 

You can bet I will be adding the trash bag....it seems to work. Actually I attached a 10' piece of PVC with perforated holes to the end of the vortex, throw leaves on top of the entire pipe....and kids go nuts trying to figure out why fog is seeping up through the grass....

Its all about the fun.


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## Otaku

I am definitely looking forward to the test results. This was a missing part of the puzzle from the fog chiller thread of last season, having actual Vortex data. I don't mean to slam Wil or the Vortex concept - I'm just convinced that he would have a larger market if his pricing were more realistic. 'Nuff said!


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## Evil Bob

I have a video of Wil showing it off at the 2006 Transworld. I can post it if there's interest.


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## Otaku

Please, Bob, do post the vid! Thanks!


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## Evil Bob

Here it is...


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## Otaku

Cool! Do you have a vid of the fog coming out of the outlet pipe? Also, what's the wattage of your fog machine?


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## Evil Bob

That's all I have of Wil's vortex.


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## Frighteners Entertainment

Bob Andrews said:


> That's all I have of Wil's vortex.


Bob, that sounds so dirty when you say it! lol


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## Evil Bob

I'm not one to talk trash (can filled with ice)


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## randyaz

next thing you know ol Wil's a millionaire... kinfolks said "Wil move away from there" ...said Californy is the place ya oughta be ...so he packed up his things and moved to Beverly... Hills that is...vortex chillers... movie stars...


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## Fright Zone

@ arcuhtek - LOL That's $49.95 regular price or buy two bags for $89.95 plus S&H with a logo and cut to the size you need it : ) Seriously I'm looking forward to test results. I like the idea of modifying the Vortex to see what happens. Nice house too!

@ BobAndrews - Cool video. It works good with the lid off! Looks like a fogging cauldron.

@ Dr. Morbius and Dreadknight - I have seen those photos of his house come to think of it.

Check out this 



. It's the old "fill the PVC pipe 3/4 of the way with ice" and instead of a 90 degree bend it has a cap with holes cut out. No air convection gap between the fogger and pipe. That ice would melt quickly but easy to fill up. Looks like a 700W fogger. Paint that black. Put a logo on it. Give it fancy name. Then you're a movin' on up to reside in a de-luxe apartment in the sky : ) Now that makes me think I wasted my time with the Igloo Cube LOL


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## Frighteners Entertainment

randyaz said:


> next thing you know ol Wil's a millionaire... kinfolks said "Wil move away from there" ...said Californy is the place ya oughta be ...so he packed up his things and moved to Beverly... Hills that is...vortex chillers... movie stars...


There went my beer...right through my nose! lol


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## Fright Zone

You know I just thought of something. If deathlord is in the furniture business, furniture gets marked up quite a bit. I've known people in the business. So maybe being what he's used to he marked up the price point of the Vortex? Just a thought. I guess it doesn't really matter but just for the sake of discussion.


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## Dr Morbius

Fright Zone said:


> You know I just thought of something. If deathlord is in the furniture business, furniture gets marked up quite a bit. I've known people in the business. So maybe being what he's used to he marked up the price point of the Vortex? Just a thought. I guess it doesn't really matter but just for the sake of discussion.


Dude you read my mind! LOL! I was thinking that very thing today on my way to work..He lives in a very different monetary demographic from most of us, and is probably used to that price range. To him, it's probably a normal price he never thinks twice about. I don't blame him though, not one bit. He should be able to charge whatever the market will bear. More power to him.


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## arcuhtek

Okay so I ran my first test today and here are the results:

1. Dont hit me, but I did not take photos because it was quickly getting dark after work. But I will...I will.

2. I filled the ice tray with 60 lbs of ice. Way too much for a test..but it was only a few bucks. The ice had no problem staying on the tray as I once commented I was worried about this....no issue there.

3. I used a Hurricane 1700 fog machine...but I think this was a mistake because this particular machine has no "continuous" function and therefore I could not control the amount of blast at all. Everytime I hit the button it was full blast. All I could control was the output time. The 1700 is too powerful for the vortex. You really need a slower blast so the fog rolls out of the machine slower. It does not have anything to do with the vortex's ability to cool faster....it has everything to do with the rate at which the fog is moving...too fast and the machine is just forcing the fog into the air even if it does go through the chiller. I will try another machine tomorrow.

4. I learned my CITC FogMAx is once again clogged for the second year in a row even though I followed strict cleaning of the machine last year after my haunt. Grrrrrrrrrrr. There not relevant here but had to say it.

5. I worried the lid would not seal a blast and leak. With the 1700 this was definitely the case. It leaked badly. With a lower rated machine or a machine with better function controls...I think the lid would be fine. I know this because I would just barely hit the blast button and immediately let off....over and over and over..to simulate a slower input...and the lid did just fine.

6. I did not try the "volumizing crystals".....thats test two.

7. It was really too windy to see how much of the low fogging effect this vortex trash can could produce. I was too excited to wait another day. But I will test tomorrow.

8. After 45 mins of test at 55 degrees outside...the was hardly any impact on the ice at all...it looked as though 60 lbs was still in place. I ran the machine many many times at full blast until it shut down to re-heat. For me thats a good sign.

9. I tested on the concrete driveway. I tested on the grass. No comparison...the grass was much more dramatic. I will wet the grass tomorrow to see if it lingers longer than dry grass. I guess this aspect of the test is a given, but did it anyway.

10. Just for giggles I ran it in reverse...blowing fog into the output.....total failure. I could have guessed based on the design that this would be the case, but again...just for giggles.

11. The seals around the output and input penetrations held well.

Thats about it for now. Will try dry ice later, as well as a true continuous fogger with slower input.


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## Fright Zone

Sounds good! I think you're covering the bases very well.


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## Otaku

Good info! Thanks very much. Purchasing a Vortex is a leap that few of us are willing or able to take (myself included!). It's good to get an evaluation from a user of a product rather than from a sales pitch or cherry-picked testimonials.


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## Fright Zone

^ yes and I'll add that it's someone who has read up on our Vortex thread and understands the tests and tweaking we're all interested in seeing.


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## arcuhtek

Actually I have only read about 15 of the 1,678,984 posts on the vortext thread, but I know what you are looking for, because this is my eighth year of haunts....and my eighth year of having an utter desire to replicate low ground fog....CREEPY! As I have said before, I have built two on my own (cooler and trash can types) with little success.

The vortex is by far better than my own trash can build. But thats because mine sucked more than to say the vortex is a masterpiece. One thing I learned (as you can see from my post above) is that a more powerful fogger can be detrimental to the fog effect desired. A slower, yet continuous, fog is best for a chiller setup. The Hurricane 1700 can blast fog directly into the air so powerful that even the kids (the testing drew all the neighborhood kids) commented on the fact that could not even see through all the fog in the air on the street (let alone the yard). Its very powerful. But my Anatari Ice Series has a neat "continuous" control. Too bad it has a rectangular output which does not work with the 4" dia. input of the vortex.

I am now in the market to buy ANOTHER fog machine...since the CITC FogMax (very expensive piece of crap) is clogged again. I am considering the Martin Magnum Pro 2000 Fog Machine. I might add that I have shopped for this unit and found that Wil at Vortex has the unit priced at almost $300 more than the average retailer. Okay here come the comments........"we told you so......." So overpricing is his thing. Show me another vortex I could have purchased?

I will do a search on Haunt Forum for other foggers to purchase but it HAS to have an adjustable "continuous" output function like the Anatari. Any quick suggestions before I search?

I forgot to mention that I DID do the trash bag modification to the vortex output. It worked very well. I will definitely use this idea on Halloween night.


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## gmacted

arcuhtek said:


> Actually I have only read about 15 of the 1,678,984 posts on the vortext thread, but I know what you are looking for, because this is my eighth year of haunts....and my eighth year of having an utter desire to replicate low ground fog....CREEPY! As I have said before, I have built two on my own (cooler and trash can types) with little success.
> 
> The vortex is by far better than my own trash can build. But thats because mine sucked more than to say the vortex is a masterpiece. One thing I learned (as you can see from my post above) is that a more powerful fogger can be detrimental to the fog effect desired. A slower, yet continuous, fog is best for a chiller setup. The Hurricane 1700 can blast fog directly into the air so powerful that even the kids (the testing drew all the neighborhood kids) commented on the fact that could not even see through all the fog in the air on the street (let alone the yard). Its very powerful. But my Anatari Ice Series has a neat "continuous" control. Too bad it has a rectangular output which does not work with the 4" dia. input of the vortex.
> 
> I am now in the market to buy ANOTHER fog machine...since the CITC FogMax (very expensive piece of crap) is clogged again. I am considering the Martin Magnum Pro 2000 Fog Machine. I might add that I have shopped for this unit and found that Wil at Vortex has the unit priced at almost $300 more than the average retailer. Okay here come the comments........"we told you so......." So overpricing is his thing. Show me another vortex I could have purchased?
> 
> I will do a search on Haunt Forum for other foggers to purchase but it HAS to have an adjustable "continuous" output function like the Anatari. Any quick suggestions before I search?
> 
> I forgot to mention that I DID do the trash bag modification to the vortex output. It worked very well. I will definitely use this idea on Halloween night.


I would recommend the VEI V-950. It has an adjustable continuous output. I'm sure I've posted a video of it in one of the 1,678,984 posts on the vortex thread.


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## CountZero

arcuhtek said:


> 3. I used a Hurricane 1700 fog machine...but I think this was a mistake because this particular machine has no "continuous" function and therefore I could not control the amount of blast at all. Everytime I hit the button it was full blast. All I could control was the output time. The 1700 is too powerful for the vortex. You really need a slower blast so the fog rolls out of the machine slower. It does not have anything to do with the vortex's ability to cool faster....it has everything to do with the rate at which the fog is moving...too fast and the machine is just forcing the fog into the air even if it does go through the chiller. I will try another machine tomorrow.


Ok, This confuses me a little. (Which isn't your fault at all, just to be clear.) I have the same fog machine, and I ran it through a 60Q homemade Cube last year with the modified vortex design and it worked fine. (Fog into the tube with the 90 towards the top of the cooler, fog is forced DOWN through the Ice into the open chamber under the ice tray, and then out the straight pipe) No massive issues with the volume of output. The 1700 didn't seem to overwhelm the cooler, and I didn't get more fog rising with the 1700W machine than I did with my MBT 1300W machine. I just ended up with a larger volume of low ground hugging fog. The "cling and hang" of the fog was similar from machine to machine, it was just the volumes that were different with the larger machine. I did use a trashbag on the output pipe to create some additional back pressure to hold the fog in the "cold chamber" of the cooler, but I ended up with really good results in terms of volume of fog and its ability to cling to the ground. I'm planning on digging out everything this weekend and doing some testing with photos and measurements and all of that fun stuff, so I'll try to post some photos and results early next week.

Also as a Side note, Chauvet now has a remote for the foggers that has a continuous setting and an "output" adjustment. I have one on order, and I'll report back on that after it arrives next week. Its the same model (FC-4) as the previous version, so you have to be careful if you order one. The new one has 3 buttons, and 3 knobs.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but it just seems odd that the larger vortex chiller is being overwhelmed by the 1700W fogger. Vortex is advertising it as being good for machines of that size. I'm just not sure why it would not work well, when my smaller chiller doesn't seem to be overwhelmed by my 1700W fogger.  The good part of all of this is we both have the exact same fogger, which will make it a little easier to quantify results as the difference now is in the chillers themselves. I'll post results when the new remote gets here, and I'll do some testing this weekend with the 1700W machine and see what happens.

CountZ


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## Fright Zone

I like where we're going with this. 

@ arcuhtek - Fwiw if I were to buy a fogger today and knew I could use it and get away with the volume it produces in my neighborhood and price was no object I'd buy the VEI-950.


And don't worry about the cost issues anymore. That teasing, the important devil's advocate stance, and the price point of the Vortex is done with. It's time to test and see what can do what how well. Cost is always an issue to be sure that's why most don't buy the Vortex. I think we've examined that aspect enough. Don't feel the need to apologize for buying the stuff. It is what it is. 

With that being said bang for the buck from what I've seen and read over the years VEI is a good brand. 

I also liked the looks of airscapes American DJ Fog Storm 1200W in his videos. Although the remote timer is a different color than what they recommend for that fogger on their web site (I think because of the DMX capabilities) airscapes can an enlighten us on that but his video proves the less expensive basic featured timer can be used with it if you go that route.


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## Otaku

CountZero, where can I find the specs for that new Chauvet controller? I have a F-1250 with an FC-4 timer control and having output control would be a nice feature. I didn't see any blurb on the Chauvet website about an upgrade to the FC-4.


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## Frighteners Entertainment

@ arcuhtek - Fwiw if I were to buy a fogger today and knew I could use it and get away with the volume it produces in my neighborhood and price was no object I'd buy the VEI-950.

I agree, it is a work horse!!


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## Adam

I don't understand why people worry about leakage so much (unless it's A LOT), usually so much fog is going in the leaking is insubstantial. I'm sure the Vortex Chiller is decent but really, all of these do the same thing cool fog to make it dense. Which brings me to what I've noticed people have been missing in their designs, the goal to make the fog dense.

I've been using the trashcan chiller for the past 5 years. In fact, my friend and I are the creators of it those many years ago. Last year we did a lot of testing. 
The trick is to have as much cold touch the fog as possible. We had the inside of a catalytic converter which has 1000's of holes. We kept it in the freezer, modified a CD spool cover to connect to the catalytic converter, and piped the fog through it. It worked great, but in that process we also noticed that condensing the fog helped a lot too. I bought one of those 10' long corrugated drainage pipes, taped the end, rested it on the grass, pumped fog through it. Behold, out of the little drain holes came condensed fog that stayed low, without any ice. This is where I noticed piping fog into a small area so it becomes dense first helps a lot. 

This year I'm scrapping the Trash can chiller, buying another drainage pipe, adding dry ice (to help with condensing even more) and running two chillers.

I think I got off topic. Basically, I don't think designs matter that much, it's just a matter of having the fog touch a lot of cold and packing the fog into a smaller area for further condensation.


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## CountZero

Otaku said:


> CountZero, where can I find the specs for that new Chauvet controller? I have a F-1250 with an FC-4 timer control and having output control would be a nice feature. I didn't see any blurb on the Chauvet website about an upgrade to the FC-4.


The Chauvet site is pretty vague about it so far. There is no announcment that I can see. I spoke with a tech at Chauvet directly after I noticed a photo showing a button marked CONTINUOUS OUTPUT and he give me the overview on it.

The PDF manual they have up on their site does reference the continuous button, but it doesn't show the output knob. And there really aren't any specs as to how it works, or what the setting need to be to make it work.

http://www.chauvetlighting.com/test/manuals/FC-4 Timer Remote.pdf?submit=Get+Manual

The product specs at the guitar center website shows the continuous button as well as the output adjustment knob. (I have no relation to them, that's just where I ordered mine from.) I ordered from them specifically since they showed it as in stock AND showed the 3 knob version on the website. (If I get the wrong one, they cant gripe about taking it back because it does not match the website, which is what I thought I was getting.) 

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_chauvet_timer_remote_for_f800_or_f1000?full_sku=803050

From talking to the Tech at Chauvet, I get the impression that this remote is BRAND new. It still has the FC-4 part number, and from what the tech said, they are getting mixed shipments at the factory still all in the same boxes. There is no sticker or anything to mark which ones are the 3 knob and which are the old version. (Apparently there is still a demand for just the timer version of the remote so they are still making those as well.) He told me that the only way to be sure you have a new version with the continuous mode is to open the box and look at it. 3 knobs = New version. 2 Knobs = Old version. We want the version with the 3 knobs. As a side note, don't panic about the guitar center site not showing the remote working with the larger foggers. They only carry the smaller foggers, so its only listed as an accessory for those units. The Tech at Chauvet assured me that it works with ANY of their foggers. Even the big ones. 

When I get mine next week I'll let everyone know how it works.

Hope that helps.

CountZ


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## Otaku

Thanks, CZ! I called the local GC store in San Jose, and it's a special order item for them. They suggested I'd have better luck at the GC website.


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## Fright Zone

@ Adam - Ironically in all this Vortex talk I used your ghostofhalloween.com trash can chiller successfully with a 400 W Gemmy and a 26 gallon $5 Wal-Mart black thin-walled trash can for my 2006 Yard Haunt. I used (2) 8ft x 4" dia pieces of aluminum drier duct clamped and taped with waterproof tape. I can't remember how much ice. I kept a full bag of store-bought ice in the center and spread the rest around. You would hear the melting ice clink to the bottom every so often. I used the trash bag on the outlet. The grass was wet from rain all day. A ToT accidentally removed the bag for part of the night taking a photo. The fog although rising slowly at that point lingered very nice and wispy. The only thing about corrugated ductwork is it creates wavy pattern in the fog but I didn't mind. I used my 48 qt Igloo Ice Cube chiller hooked up to a cauldron using a 400W Gemmy mini. It all worked out fine for the size of our yard haunt. Here' a [nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0sbPBsOhkY[/nomedia] I recently posted of the small yard haunt. You can see how they both performed.

I've been saying lately that even if the wind destroys it, chilled fog is still heavier, lingers and is wispy when it rises producing a more interesting atmopsheric effect than straight out of the fogger any day. "Denser" is a good term to use as well.

I was thinking about fog chiller leakage concerns today. I don't think it really reduces the output so much as it looks annoying to the haunter.

I posted a link to a simple pipe chiller on the previous page. I think it's just more fun building something that you simply have fun building is part of the deal too. And that's why the Vortex is interesting as an Igloo Ice Cube Cooler for my money's worth.

It's always nice to see new ideas. Thanx for stopping by to join us!


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## arcuhtek

Yep, the leakage for me is a give away of the location of the fogger.....I want hidden in the bushes. I TOO use a 10 foot long drainage pipe with perfs attached to the end of the chiller to slow the fog down and condense it. I have not added it to the mix yet because I was trying to be fair in the review of just the vortex.

Concerning the 1700 overwhelming the vortex Pro: I think in fairness I MUST say that the wind has been a very big factor the last two days. and so JUST MAYBE my perspective of the fog being blown out very fast and into the air too fast has a lot to do with the wind carrying the fog away instead of the force of the machine. I thought I could judge the difference.

There is still a lot of testing to go....and I cannot wait. Tomorrow I have ALL day to play.

I am glad to hear about the FC-4......I will be on that like stink on....errrr. You get the point.

No I still didnt take pics today because the wind was worse today. Though I tested for about 2 hours. It sucked.

The Antari Z Ice machine makes much more dramatic low fog when blown at midpoint output than the Hurricane 1700 and the Vortex pro. But again....the Antari is ridiculously expensive for what you get. Nice but expensive. 

For the person who mention no more apologies about price.....I am just joking and me mentioning the price is more of a disclosure for those who might want to condense their own research into one spot or even compare my results with expensive machines as opposed to alleged lesser models. When in reality with a chiller, I think continuous and slower is better. 

After all......I probably have less hands on experience than all of you. I am a student too...just sharing stories (and prices).

Oh and one more thing about the VEI - 950. I found conflicting materials about wether or not it really has a continuous capability. It is identical in price to the Hurricane 1700, so if I can get another 1700, ANNNNNND the FC-4 REALLY works to make it continuous.....I may opt for another Hurricane 1700. It really has pleased me. But to those of you who own the 950....is it really continuous and capable of slow fog..nonstop? Do you have any comparisons to say it might be a more reliable machine....than the Hurricane 1700. I assume not....meaning it will only make the decision harder.

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Thanks.


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## CountZero

Just my opinion, but strictly from a logical standpoint, IF in fact the FC-4 works as advertised in a continuous mode, that and the 1700 should provide more output than a 950 just based on wattage and max rated output. (30,000 CFM for the 1700, and I believe 20,000 for the 950.) From what I've heard of ANY continuous fogger, you cannot run it at 100% output in continuous mode, its got to be throttled back. If you throttle a 950 back to 60% in continuous mode you are talking 60% of 1300W or 60% of 20,000 CFM which would be roughly 12,000CFM continuous . If the 1700 works the same way and needs to be throttled back to the same 60% for continuous use, that 60% of 30,000CFM would be 18,000 CFM roughly. Which all things being equal, is more fog.

And while I don't doubt that the 950 is a great machine, I'm a more fog kinda guy. If I can get them both for basically the same price, I'm going to grab the one that gives me more. 

CountZ


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## arcuhtek

Okay I have pics! Errrr...cept I dont have the USB2 cable at my house to get them on the net! I took pics of every component of the Vortex, both assembled and disassembled.

I wanted to make one quick correction. I said the "volumizing crystlas" did not come in a bag but were wrapped in plastic wrap and were purple, and looked like dyed rock salt. As it turns out, and the photos will show, there was a bag, which was wrapped in the plastic wrap. It appeared that the wrap was so tight, the texture of the rock salt looking crystals were embossed tightly to the black bag making them look purple. In fact, it was in a black bag, and it was normal looking rock salt, with some large white colored pebbles....not sure what to call them....I took photos.

So the weather was much nicer today. Much calmer. But still an occasionally breeze took my fog away. Here are my "test conditions and results"

1. I have yet to mention this and I think this might be a factor. ALL my fog juice is VEI. It is NOT noted as being low fog type. Someone PLEASE chime in and let me know if this is perhaps one reason for my disappointment today (keep reading).

2. It was 70 degrees and slightly breezy (enough to carry ALL the fog away instantly at times).

3. It was clear and sunny.

4. I tested today using ONLY standard ice cubes. No DRY ice today.

5. I used "volumizer crystals" near the end of the day, but they are NOT used in this description unless otherwise noted.

6. I used only 40lbs of ice instead of filling the vortex full to 60lbs....since I knew I would not test long enough to melt 60lbs.

7. I used the Chavunet Hurricane 1700 machine.....using a wireless control and only manual, no other timer.

8. I had my Antari Z Ice Low Ground Fogger side by side for comparison. In ALL tests it was on continuous and set at medium output. In all tests it has 20 lbs of standard cube ice.

Test 1
I put in 40lbs of ice in the Vortex, so as an overall unit it was probably not yet cooled down...though still effective. My first blast, the fog was not low, creepy and did not hang around long. This is when I questioned if I had the correct fog fluid. Comments? The blast lasted about 1 minute. A LOT of fog....but just not lingering like I want. The Antari was pumping away.....the fog was low, lingering longer than the Vortex. Still not lingering like I want.

Test 2.
I placed the Antari up to the input of the Vortex. The Antari has a large rectangular mouth at output...so it is not a compatible fit to the 4 inch PVC input of the Vortex. The result was indifferent....meaning the fog directly from the Antari was really unchanged when exiting the Vortex. This is not surprising as it is cooled BEFORE entering the Vortex. I was actually looking at the force of the fog not the attribute of its linger. This test confirmed to me that the 1700 is too powerful for the Vortex Pro. I can be convinced otherwise.....but for now I just dont know why the fog is hauling ass out of the Vortex and going straight into the air...or at least does not look as cool as some low lying fog I have seen in the past. The Antari was pumping away.....the fog was low, lingering longer than the Vortex. Keyword lingering. In ALL test the 1700 produces MORE VOLUME of fog than the Antari.

Test 3
Installed a 10 foot piece of PVC pipe, with perforated holes along its length, at the output of the Vortex. MUCH improved effect of fog. This pipe obviously slowed down the 1700's powerful blasts. With the far end of the PVC pipe capped off.....the fog was creeping out of the holes along the entire length of pipe. BUT.......it was still being swept away by the breeze....occasionally. The fog STILL is not lingering to my liking. The Antari was pumping away.....the fog was low, lingering longer than the Vortex. In fact, my friend, who knows NOTHING about fog machines....kept saying...._"the Antari is much more effective in making the creepy fog.....just not as much. The Antari is my favorite."
_
Test 4
Same as Test 3, except I covered the entire length of PVC with tulle cloth. This is not normally what I would do.....I would normally cover it with fallen leaves. But this year....the leaves are still on the trees. This test resulted in a very cool effect. The fog was lingering....slowly coming out of the pipe..and sticking around. It became very apparent that the breeze was the only contributor to the fogs demise.

Test 5
Same as test 4 but with Volumizer Crystals. No difference. Should I be waiting a while for the salt to kick in here? I waited no more than 10 mins.

I REALLY want a completely still day to test these again. I must also add that I have a sneaky suspicion that I need to be using the low ground fog juice. Anyone got a superstar suggestion on where to get about 8 gallons of good low fog juice?

Oh and even though I state I only ran four tests....in fact I fogged about 30 minutes per test.....to make sure I had some calm moments from the wind. I never really felt I had more than 5 mins without a breeze....even as light as they were today.

CONCLUSION:
I think the fog juice is a factor here. The Vortex is good...but still leaking like crazy. We put two gallons of fog juice on its lid and this helped a bunch...almost sealed it shut. To me, the Antari has a better effect, but less volume and more reloading of the ice...... The Antari will melt about 10lbs of ice per hour and likely 20 lbs in about 90 mins. In fact, I think DRY ICE is the way to go with the Antari.

The Volumizer Crystals did not seem to do squat, IF I USED THE CORRECTLY.

The Vortex Pro has a lot of potential....but I have a sneaky suspicion that I will be lining the lower "chamber" with dry ice, in ADDITION to the 60lbs of standard ice cubes. I am thinking that maybe I will even try to create a second ice tray with just dry ice. Not sure.

The Vortex Pro does NOT work well with a fogger that does not have a continuous function. 1700 watts and 15,000 cf of fog per minute is just too much fog for the vortex to cool fast enough.

After 3 hours of testing, the Vortex Pro had about 20 lbs of ice left on the ice tray. Overall I think I got what I expected out of this Vortex Pro, but something seems amiss, especially if you look at the MFR.'s own video of this machine.

Lastly...if the fog juice type is a contributing factor, then why does it look low and creepy from the Antari and not the Vortex? I think its the power factor. If true low ground fog juice will improve what I saw today.....I will be VERY excited. For all of you reading this...please know I am being very critical here....all the kids watching this show were having a blast (no pun intended) and commented on how cool it was. If nothing changed, the effect with what I own now...would be fine....just not the Holy Grail, scary, low, slow, creepy, lingering fog filling the entire yard I am seeking.


----------



## airscapes

If you had any breeze you wasted your time.. sorry, but the fact of the matter is, no matter how slight it will destory any low lying fog. I am going to test my cube chiller, well actually my fog machines to see if it still works and 2 differnet fog fluids as well as rock salt. Will post video on Youtube.


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## Otaku

Great test notes, arcuhtek! I'll bet my F-1250 would have trouble with the Vortex, as well. Regarding low-lying fog juice - I read a couple of accounts that say the reason the chilled fog (and all accounts stated that a chiller was used) stays low is that it dissipates more quickly, giving the appearance of hanging low for a long time. If the fog vanishes before rising, all you will see is low-lying fog. If you have a lot of fog, this probably isn't an issue.
I'm looking forward to hearing about the results with the new FC-4 controller tha CountZero is getting. If that new timer works as advertised, I'm getting one ASAP.


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## Fright Zone

The way I think about it after using chillers in my haunt last year and re-watching my haunt videos, is that even if the low-lying ground-hugging creeping rolling aspect gets destroyed by wind, the chilled fog is still denser, heavier, slower (especially with the trash bag on the outlet), lingers, wafts in the air and is overall more atmospheric than not chilling it all. So I would still chill it. But if rolling graveyard fog is the sole effect to be achieved outdoors then yes I agree it's difficult to achieve consistently.


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## arcuhtek

To be honest....it did not feel windy outside today. In fact I was excited at how still the air felt.....until the first blast. No matter what, I always have fun doing it. So I do no think I wasted my time.

Additionally, one can tell by looking right at the point of output, if the fog has a cooled "roll" to it versus a force fed blast of hot air....even before the wind gets to it. 

So I may have more succesful calm days to test...but I did learn some things.


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## Fright Zone

Maybe try Froggy's Fog Juice that LOTL tried in the Vortex Manual thread (and others have also) ?

Sidenote: I think the Vortex Pro demo video was done indoors (quoting from memory). Any chiller will work indoors. Their Vortex Mini demo video shows wet pavement to help it cling as well.

The kids had fun. That's what it' all about. I take that back it's about the big kids having fun too


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## Evil Bob

Yes the demo I saw was indoors.


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## Fright Zone

Thanx!

I have a video that shows my impromptu description of the 48 qt Igloo Ice Cube Vortex right after ToT last year. I just got around to putting it online. Even though the purpose was not ground-hugging graveyard fog it still describes the basic construction and how the chilled fog is dense and lingers nicely. I updated the "Fog Chiller Vortex Style to Witch Cauldron Yard Haunt How-to" [nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fe00HvZbN0[/nomedia]


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## CountZero

I wasnt able to pull my gear out today and play with it, which wouldn't have mattered as it was windy here all day as well. I will agree that the fog juice DOES make a difference. I started with the stock MBT juice that came with my first fogger. Then I got the Froggy's Juice and output was noticeably better. Last year I upgraded again to the Froggy's Juice that is designed for Chillers, and it was again another step in the right direction. To be honest though, I got more increase in volume with a trash bag than I did with a change in juice. The change in juice has more of an effect in how it dissipates rather than strictly affecting volume. The Chiller formula tends to rise slower, and break up slower, which helps with the "low creepy" look that we are all going for.

While I agree that using the pipe will help with the back pressure and possibly stabilize the fog some, I think the trash bag is a better option for a couple of reasons. 1. I want to keep the fog in the cooler as long as I can, its cold in the cooler and not in the pipe. 2. I want it to hit a wall in the chiller so it can build up pressure in that cold lower chamber. Once its thick enough to overcome the weight of the bag, it is free to exit. 3. I want the constant pressure of the bag pressing down on the fog as it escapes. That helps to keep the backpressure more constant, as well as funneling the fog out into a sheet rather than a column.

In theory, piping it into a pipe is going to allow it to build up a little more pressure, but I don't think it would be as much pressure as the bag would allow as the pipe is rigid and will not obstruct the flow in any way. That being said, I used solid pipe coming off of my outlet last year to route the fog away from the fogger/chiller. I put the bag on the end of that pipe anyways. I wanted to restrict that fog on its way out. It worked perfectly. Now this would not work if you were trying to have fog seeping out of the ground in your haunt. But for me, I wanted a thick, clinging creepy pool of fog. And that's what I ended up with.  These photos are from last year, but they illustrate what I'm talking about.

10 second burst from an MBT 1000W fogger.

http://www.liquidrealities.com/images/fog/close10sec.jpg

30 second burst 1000W fogger, with wind. (You can see the fog blowing down over the edge of the wall)
http://www.liquidrealities.com/images/fog/bagsteps.jpg

Probably a 1 minute blast with the 1000W fogger. (Manual blast till the fogger cycled.)

http://www.liquidrealities.com/images/fog/bagfogger.jpg

I'll take some photos this year of the 1700W fogger using the same setup with the bag. (And I'm planning on marking distances out away from the fogger so its easy to actually figure out how much fog we are getting in a more quantitative sense.

Hope this makes sense.  And hope it helps.

CountZ


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## Fright Zone

Thanks Count! Good explanation of the trash bag. Whatwas the approximate outdoor temperature in those photos?


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## CountZero

I'm not 100% positive, but I seem to remember it being in the low 60's out last year when I tested. Current temps here are running low to mid 60's in the evenings, which is when I'll be testing again this year. I prefer testing at night. Its harder to take photos at night, but the temp is cooler outside, which makes it more important to super chill the fog. During the day when its 80, you don't have to cool the fog too terribly much to get a decent temperate differential and reasonable looking low fog. When its cool outside already, that's more of a worst case scenario, which is what I'm looking for.

CountZ


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## airscapes

Here are a bunch of videos I took last night with 51 degree outside air. I was testing to make sure my AD Fogstorm was still working (fitco was not) and I wanted to see if there was a difference in fog fluids. Fitco $14 gallon, AD $9qt, and Sam Ash House brand, $22-23 a gallon..forget which it was.
Also wanted to try adding magic volumizing crystals.. or ROCK SALT to the top of the ice. I did not see much difference with the salt but only added 1 hand full. I understand the physics behind using salt just don't know if the benifit is worth the speeded melting of 40lbs of ice. Running fog every night it is not windy, for 2 weeks before halloween can get expensive.
Fog goes in the bottom chamber and out the stack pipe in these video, I tryed it the other way (no video) and it did not work as well.
Fitco juice




American DJ juice




Sam Ash Juice





Little bit of rock salt from different angle on timmer mode
America DJ juice





Fitco juice


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## arcuhtek

I am not sure why this thread was moved, as it has to do with an actual purchase and actual tests of that chiller versus discussion about a chiller manual and people talking about their own designs.


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## Fright Zone

@airscapes - interesting tests. any one of those works for me. I actually like the thicker Fitco juice test. Even though it rises a bit more it's not too bad. However I'd guess it's junk for your quality ADJ fogger if you used it often(?) The rock salt videos seemed a little different maybe thicker and slower but not as spread out although it was a different angle. and there was no trash bag used this time correct? thanx for noting the wind and the temp.


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## airscapes

No trash bag and my original runs last year was not a full 40lbs of ice and a sort output run. In reality I send the fog about as far as the pipe I used last night. I think I am done with fitco juice after this year, the stuff is like antifreeze and with all the stuff coming from china that is not safe I wonder. The AD and Sam Ash fog has very little smell compared to the fitco.. gota wonder.. BTW if you didn't chatch my other post, the fitco 1000 pump was dead this year .. can't find that number for sale anywhere so I ordered a replacement for the fogstorm from AD. $16.00 + shipping.. going to see if I can retorfit the fitco.


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## ScareFX

arcuhtek said:


> I am not sure why this thread was moved, as it has to do with an actual purchase and actual tests of that chiller versus discussion about a chiller manual and people talking about their own designs.


I understand that. That's why I left it separate for a few days. But the discussion has once again moved beyond the original topic and back to modifications and testing of different designs. It's not good for future users to have to wade through two different threads that basically contain similar information. If the discussion had stayed on-topic I would not have merged the threads. I warned about the potential for the threads to be merged.


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## Fright Zone

I agree it was inevitable. It's the DIY experimental nature of haunters. Even the Vortex product itself will now be modified in Frankenstien's lab that's the Vortex thread despite how relatively simple the design is. Let the fun continue in the quest for lingering thread I mean lingering fog :googly:


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## arcuhtek

I dont really have a problem with the move, I just think its easier to wade through two threads versus, 704 (to date) separate posts in one thread. Just my preference..but you are the decision maker.


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## Fright Zone

One reason I could see to keep them separate is if the rest of us who don't own the Vortex make a gentleman's agreement so to speak (yeah like NASACR : ) to keep our DIY chiller tests in the Vortex Manual thread. So the only people posting any test results about the actual Vortex product are the ones who own them. Then the rest of us can make suggestions and ask questions.


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## arcuhtek

Ahh whats done is done......forward we march.


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## Adam

I looked at Fright Zone's video and this was the first time I heard about the trash bag concept. I love it.  Seems to help a lot AND cause a big spread.

Sorry for getting OT, arcuhtek, your test results were fantastic. Perhaps move your very first post and the test post into its own topic.


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## arcuhtek

They used to be in their own topic....but they were merged here.


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## ScareFX

arcuhtek said:


> They used to be in their own topic....but they were merged here.


47% of the 68 posts in your original thread were not related to your Vortex Chiller test. This is an important discussion but we do not need two huge threads that essentially cover the same subject.


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## Fright Zone

^^^ I have to seriously look back in this thread and start giving credit to the haunter who posted here and gave us the idea of the trash bag on the outlet. I honestly can’t remember out of all the specific things that I do remember about who posted what or who used what and came up with which idea. :googly:

^ That's a good way to explain it for anyone wondering. That's what I meant by inevitable. We've just been talking about the Vortex DIY style too long to date. It would be hard to not vere off like we did. Personally everytime I see "archutek's" name pop up now I'll look forward to hearing about the actual Vortex. I think that's one way I'll keep it mentally straight. Except if people want to read about the Vortex they have to get to page 70-ish. Ouch my head hurts. Onward and upward.

I have a 48qt vs. 12qt Igloo DIY Vortex test video to post and show tomorrow here with notes. It wasn't ground hugging fog but it was slow lingering an atmospheric which I like. And it's the small 400W Gemmy. Even if I had a 1200W the neighbors wouldn't like it. It shows on a smaller scale what the DIY chillers do for the record.


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## arcuhtek

I finally got around to photographing the Vortex.

Here is the link to the slideshow:Vortex slideshow by arcuhtek - Photobucket

There was a limit to the number of slides so it took two slide shows. Here is the second one:

Vortex2 slideshow by arcuhtek - Photobucket

Enjoy.


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## gmacted

arcuhtek said:


> Oh and one more thing about the VEI - 950. I found conflicting materials about wether or not it really has a continuous capability. It is identical in price to the Hurricane 1700, so if I can get another 1700, ANNNNNND the FC-4 REALLY works to make it continuous.....I may opt for another Hurricane 1700. It really has pleased me. But to those of you who own the 950....is it really continuous and capable of slow fog..nonstop? Do you have any comparisons to say it might be a more reliable machine....than the Hurricane 1700. I assume not....meaning it will only make the decision harder.
> 
> Lots of good stuff in this thread. Thanks.


Sorry for the late reply to this question, but I'm just doing some catching up.

I personally own the VEI V-950 (great fogger by the way) and it is capable of continuous output, just not at 100%. In order to get continuos output you have to throttle it back to ~40-50% of it's maximum output.

Here is a link to a video of the V-950 with my chiller. THe fogger is able to produce this much fog continuosly for the entire 5 liter tank. I usually run the fogger continuously on Halloween night and I have never run out of juice yet.

By the way, I have not tried the trash bag method yet, but I do use a double-y on the output to convert the single out to a triple output. See the last picture on this page.

I have tried a couple of different variations to my chiller, but I like this one the best as I think it produces the best output for my fogger.


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## arcuhtek

Wow thats pretty awesome. I have pictures of my testing now....but have to run....will post later.

Kevin


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## Fright Zone

Thanx gmacted! I'm glad you got those posted again for a refresher and alternative set-up. One tha tI always keep in mind. Not to mention the good results form the VEI. The important thing to note for nayone new reading is that that set-up worked for your high wattage constant fogger and lots of ice. A low wattage fogger would never handle that.

Nice pics archutek! Tha't's interesting how they use the elbows to angle the pipe I guess to slow the fog down a bit.


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## Terrormaster

I know it's probably a lot of work being that this thread is more than 70 pages. But maybe it would be helpful to extract all the pertinent information, sort it in a grid by machine wattage for the noobs (like me) who weren't around during all the testing to quickly find what they need to know. Then if they want to go deeper link them back to this thread. Take that information and post it in a new thread that maybe gets updated when information is added or changed and sticky the thread.

-TM


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## Fright Zone

I kind of tried to note all the different types on occasion as seen in post two of the "Making of a fog chiller" thread.

I started to make a video describing the construction of a 12qt since it's small enough to show up on a table. Then I start to go off on tangents. Well this works and this works too. You can try this and then that. See what works in a particular situation. I can only tell you what works with a 400W and a cauldron on top of that compared to the trash can etc. So that idea was aborted so far.

On here everyone comes to some sort of general consensus but there's a lot of variables that kept us doing that. If one person got a set of foggers and chillers and differing ice and ice chamber to expansion area ratios and inlet venuturis and outlet bags and pipes and differing weather conditions indoors, covered porch and different sized yards with wet grass or border fences etc. then an excel spreadsheet could start to be definitive. But someone always comes up with something new. That's the inherent problem.

If someone want to start a chart it's a good idea and wouldn't hurt. Without my first-hand experience with larger foggers and chillers in different conditions I wouldn't want to do it myself.

But yes it's a understandable common request to distill all the info if someone would tackle it. And you really need a dedicated editor to finalize then update it.


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## arcuhtek

I am not sure why the two elbows on the inlet....they really make no sense to me. In the end, the blast of fog slams the underside of the lid anyway.

And about thread distilling. One wonders if a thread was started with exact information, if it could not be locked soon thereafter to preserve just the facts submitted. Just a thought.

I think I am going to "insulate" the bottom most "chamber" of the vortex with blocks of dry ice...all the way around the perimeter. The standard ice is good for cooling, but the dry ice might be good for any fog that makes it through, but is still not cold enough to sink completely to the ground. Just my idea for a mod. My local grocery store sells 12"x12"x2" blocks of dry ice....so I would just stand those up on their end and butt the 2 inch sides together all the way around the inner wall.

One final note.....I would start a new thread about this, but I think it still fits here.

*Alternative option for a DIY Vortex Chiller....located at Wal-Mart.*

So I was shopping at Wal-Mart yesterday and ran across a VERY interesting trash can....that I believe would make an EASY vortex chiller. First, look at my photos of my Vortex Pro, if you have not already. That will help with my upcoming description.

The trash can is a 65 gallon model from "Might-As-Well, Inc." I have tried VERY hard to locate on online....with NO success. I did not get the price of this unit but it looked to be relatively cheap construction, so I cannot imagine its expensive. I only saw ONE....and honestly I have thought of going back and getting it..thinking it will be gone by the time I get back.

Why is it so good? Here goes:

1. It has wheels. Easy to transport, locate and move in your yard.

2. It is square in shape...not round. Easy to drill or cut the three penetrations on a flat surface versus curved.

3. Its HUGE. Lots of ice.

4. Its black....not blue. No need to paint to hide it.

5. The lid is attached and pivots around the heavy duty handle. Easy to align a weather stripping seal and easier to keep all pieces in tact.

6. The bottom is sloped into a wedge shape pointing toward the front.....easy to drain and point drainage towards an outlet you create.

7. Best of all.......it has a built in (part of the original mold) lip, on which to rest a bbq grill rack or other screen to form your ice tray. And its located at almost (if not the) perfect level within the vertical dimension of the can. This means you do not have to do additional work to create table legs to hold the shelf. (see my pics of the white PVC legs of the Vortex)

8. Remember the square shape....well since it is already square.....the ice tray you have to create is easier to make....imagine trying to cut aluminum or other metal into a circle....just plain harder.

9. This is hard to describe...remember the sloped bottom? Well that slope is large....large enough to locate your inlet vertical pipe within this plane....and have your elbow, outside the can. Why is this an advantage? Because it allows you to tuck the fogger closer to the can (easier to hide). And to bet all, this means the fogger will be between the two large wheels....even more hidden.

Essentially, you will cut three holes: a) inlet 4" dia. in the sloped plane between the rear wheels, b) one 3 to 4" dia. outlet near the bottom (sides or where ever you want) and c) the small water drainage hole near the front center. Place a square ice try on the built in inner lip and cut the hole for the 4" PVC....and you are DONE!

Hope you can imagine this by description.....I cannot find a pic of it anywhere. Should I go to Wal-Mart and photograph it?


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## Fright Zone

I know the trash can you're talking about. I saw it last year before I picked up the Igloo Cube Coolers and a 26 gallon cheapo black trash can. I'd say if you're up to it give it a try. That's right up the alley of this thread.


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## BigDave

arcuhtek said:


> I am not sure why the two elbows on the inlet....they really make no sense to me. In the end, the blast of fog slams the underside of the lid anyway.


I think the double elbows are there just to clear the legs of the ice tray. Also, for all the demos I have seen, the pipe with the double elbows is the OUTLET. That might be why you are having such a problem with fog escaping through the lid.


----------



## gmacted

BigDave said:


> I think the double elbows are there just to clear the legs of the ice tray. Also, for all the demos I have seen, the pipe with the double elbows is the OUTLET. That might be why you are having such a problem with fog escaping through the lid.


Archutek,

BigDave is correct. The "Vortex" design has the fog enter the lower chamber, expand, rise through the ice, cool and then be forced out the exhaust port. I think you are using the chiller in what this thread calls the "reverse" mode where the fog is piped to the top of the chiller (via the "true" outlet) and forced down through the ice and out the inlet (if that makes any sense). I tried the "reverse" mode myself last year and didn't like the results one bit (that's why I'm going back to my original design). I still haven't tried the "true" Vortex design as my outlet and inlet are in the expansion chamber (but my inlet has a 90 degree elbow that goes flush with the ice tray) . I may have to try the true "Vortex" design this year and see how I like the results.


----------



## arcuhtek

I see what you and Dave are talking about......but go back and review my original test results and look to see.....I DID in fact test the Vortex in what I thought was the "reverse mode". From your description.....I "am" operating it in reverse mode...whereas I need to put my chiller to the other pipe and try it.

For anyone reading...I know this is confusing....so here is a little more info.

I am using the 4" dia. PVC pipe as my input....the fog goes straight up the pipe to the top of the trash can and then falls through the ice...down into a lower area and out the 3" dia. pvc outlet.

It seems that this is called the "reverse method" and I thought it was the correct method. Hmmmmm

In my test, just for giggles, I DID use the opposite method where I placed the fogger directly in front of the 3" dia. pvc pipe. As you can see from my post (I am sure its buried 50 deep now) I stated "total failure." What happened when I did this was the fogger has such a powerful blast, that 90% of the fog that went into the 3" dia. hole, immediately got kicked back out of the 3" dia. hole....back onto the fogger. Almost NOTHING came out of the 4" dia. pvc outlet. 

See this is what you get for being a poor mfr., and not sending an instruction manual.

Before I jump on this wagon....I will test it again. I admit....it was such a total failure that I only tested for about 10 seconds. I did not even let the blast finish. Maybe I should have.....to be fair. This creates two thoughts in my head. 

1. Is the Hurricane 1700 REALLY too powerful for the Vortex....since 90% of the fog in a 10 second blast spilled right back out of the same hole? For anyone who has not seen the design, this 3" dia PVC pipe is only about 4 inches long....and thats all there is to the design...at that point. The rest is only the lower area of the trash can....with the "ice tray" above. There is nothing that stops the fog from coming back out. If thi sis in fact the proper way to use it.....why would there not be at least a 90" elbow inside the can to keep fog from just being forced back out the same way it came in?

2. If I used this incorrectly, this would explain why the lid seal is so poor. Because the design does not intend for the fog blast to slam against the lid....just rise naturally into the upper "chamber".

Well I feel like a dumbaxx for not using it correctly. So I will go home and test it again tonight, with photos. (look for my first test photos today before noon)

If it spills back out, I may just add a 90 degree elbow own my own. It could be done easily and quickly.

One final response: The two elbows that are inside the can are weird to me. Dave said it was to miss the legs for the ice tray. But the legs to hold up the ice tray can be put anywhere....the "legs" as you can see from my photos...are removable....can be turned and placed at any point within the bottom of the can. So a single 90 elbow would have been good enough to accomplish this task. Perhaps their is another explanation?


----------



## Fright Zone

Yeah I also thought since the trash can is round and the legs are put together symmetrically they could be positioned anywhere. So there's another reason for the wacky bend. I can't see them adding material costs just for that. It's got to have something to do with slowing the velocity or something like that. 

Be sure to keep the fogger nozzle 2-3" away from the inlet whichever pipe you use. Don't put it right up against it. It needs air convection to create the velocity and fog expansion needed to output well. I think they state that in the manual they didn't give you. (PDF link on the first post page One here). You'd be amazed the difference between a 1" air convection gap to the inlet and a 2" gap. I'm planning on putting a video on you-tube that shows the difference with the Igloo knock-off and a 400W fogger.

Yes as stated above the intended Vortex inlet is the straight pipe at the bottom. Even though it works either way. It causes more backwash but a little bit more velocity. I use the reverse set-up with the 90 degree pipe to the top as the inlet because I don't like the backwash.


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## arcuhtek

Here is the link to photos of my test:

Fog Tests slideshow by arcuhtek - Photobucket

Note that some photos show the PVC pipe extension wrapped in white tulle cloth to slow it down. I had the end capped but I should have attached a large trash bag.

Some photos also show my Antari Z Ice unit side by side with the vortex. I should also note that the photos showing both units firing fog.....the units are not on full blast. The Antari is at 50% and the Hurricane 1700 is just completing its full blast cycle and is off with the fog coming out being the remaining fog from within the vortex.


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## Terrormaster

Fright Zone said:


> I'm planning on putting a video on you-tube that shows the difference with the Igloo knock-off and a 400W fogger.
> 
> Yes as stated above the intended Vortex inlet is the straight pipe at the bottom. Even though it works either way. It causes more backwash but a little bit more velocity. I use the reverse set-up with the 90 degree pipe to the top as the inlet because I don't like the backwash.


I'm curious to see this video myself since I'm using a 400w Gemmy (with Gemmy Juice) and a 60qt Igloo.

I tested again last night since there was barely a breeze. I found that the fog wanted to pool in one specific area of my yard most of the time - which was usually under the tree. I tried it from the porch, on the ground both in front and behind the tree with pretty much the same effect.

It is lying low to the ground so the chiller works in that regards, it's just not spreading out much at all. I even tried putting a small desktop fan on low next to the chiller to try and push the fog away. Worked some but also pushed the fog into the air. Feels like I'm loosing velocity once it hits the ground.

I did find I got better results if I tried to fog the yard horizontally instead of vertically though.

I haven't tried the "reverse" into the chiller yet though.

-TM


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## Fright Zone

^ I used a 12qt Igloo (because Target has them on sale and they were new this year and I wanted to see if something that small worked) and my 48 qt Igloo from last year. I have a 60qt Roller Igloo but I never drilled holes in it. I wanted to save it if I ever got a high wattage fogger then I'd put 3" dia PVC pipes into it instead of 2" even though people here have used the 2".

^^ Looks like they both work! I hadn't seen an Antari (the spell check wants to spell it "Atari"  in action in a yard before nor a Vortex Pro. It looks like you used the reverse inlet set-up (fog into the 4" dia vertical pipe). Did you move the fogger back 2-3" away from the inlet?

Looking at one of your photos of the Vortex Pro it looks like A) they wanted to keep the inlet perpendicular to the outlet and B) since the fog shoots straight in the bottom and C) maybe because of the shape of the trash can and D) it's meant to be used with poweful foggers E) they wanted the outlet pipe as far away from the inlet as possible which ends up being almost right on top of it so F) they use those elbows to accomplish that. Kind of like the fog is on a rebound.


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## Otaku

Back on page 67 Bob Andrews had posted a vid of a Vortex demo (it's since been removed), but it shows the Pro with the lid removed while fog is being pumped into the lower chamber. The fog is rolling over the top of the can and out onto the floor. The fog is not coming out of the long pipe near the lid, so it looks like the short pipe is the inlet.


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## Fright Zone

Yeah the PDF manual on page One says use a 3" gap between fogger and inlet. The inlet is the one that goes into the lower fog expansion chamber below the flash freezing chamber.


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## Otaku

I use a Vortex-modifed FOTR chiller. The original design had the expansion chamber below the ice tray. I tried blowing the fog into the pipe below the ice tray, and when the fogger shut off a ton of fog rolled back out. I reversed the flow such that the expansion chamber is at the top of the ice chest (I lowered the tray to ~2" off the bottom of the chest) and the hot fog enters through a long pipe and is forced down through the ice. No more backwash.


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## arcuhtek

In my defense, I have no manual, and the link was not working during my testing....so I am not a dumbaxx.....

(said with a smile)

I am now anxious to test again. The baskwash is the concern for me. It was pretty bad during my very brief test. But the outlet should always be larger than the inlet, because of expansion, so that TOO shows that I should be firing into the 3" dia hole. DUH on me.

Yes I pulled the fog machine away from the inlet during testing. I have learned this over the years. But, I think today I will test it with various distances like you did. Also, your earlier post about firing the fog into a tarp, tombstone or otherwise, gave me an idea.... I have solid walls around some of my porches, and for me to direct the fog into those walls is something I had not thought of before. You can see these walls in my test photos (right behind the vortex). This might actually slow the fog down a lot....allowing it to linger.

About the double 45 elbow and its location. You are correct....I had not thought of it, but as an Architect we design supply and return air flow in any given room to be as far away as possible form one another. That is exactly why the vortex is designed as such. I am just amazed that this thought was put into action. Perhaps the vortex is not as simple as we would like to think regardless of actual number of components.

For the person who said they had a problem with pooling...even though I used the vortex in reverse....my goodness....I only WISH i had a pooling problem. As you can see from my photos.....it looks like a floodgate opened as the fog shoots 4-5 feet away from the inlet before hitting the ground or air. I may try it with the lid off today too.

Good thread folks....good thread!


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## Terrormaster

arcuhtek said:


> For the person who said they had a problem with pooling...even though I used the vortex in reverse....my goodness....I only WISH i had a pooling problem. As you can see from my photos.....it looks like a floodgate opened as the fog shoots 4-5 feet away from the inlet before hitting the ground or air.


Care to swap places?! Hehehe... Actually I don't "think" there's anything wrong with my implementation of the Vortex design. This is what I got:










Last night's test was with 15lbs of ice, I could probably get 20lbs in there if I had to. But again, I don't think my trouble is with the chilling process as that seems to do as expected. So, I'm trying to determine if my machine is insufficient (400w Gemmy) or if maybe I need to try a different juice other than the el-cheap-o Gemmy stuff (which is 3 years old). Again it just feels like I'm loosing power.

Any recommendations would be great.

-TM


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## Otaku

TM, that's almost identical to my chiller. My ice tray is ~2" off the bottom, and the concave lid creates an expansion chamber at the top of the ice. I'm using 2" pipe throughout, and have no trouble getting good flow with either the F-1250 or the 700 watt Lite F/X.


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## Terrormaster

Otaku said:


> TM, that's almost identical to my chiller. My ice tray is ~2" off the bottom, and the concave lid creates an expansion chamber at the top of the ice. I'm using 2" pipe throughout, and have no trouble getting good flow with either the F-1250 or the 700 watt Lite F/X.


Yup, 2" on mine as well (except for the support for the chicken wire which is 1/2" but that doesn't count hehe). Except my tray is closer to the top and my intake is the straight in the bottom. Otaku, aren't you pumping in through the other side, the one with the elbow?

I dunno, part of me is still leaning towards the juice. Also wondering if maybe adding a Y to the intake and pumping a second 400w through would help?

-TM


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## Otaku

Yes, I pump the fog in through the elbow to the top of the chiller. I tried the opposite direction and while the chill effect and flow were good, there was so much backwash of cold fog coming out of the inlet that I had to re-design.


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## Fright Zone

@ arch - That explains it. They really should have provided a manual or at least a link. And they wonder why people post it online 

I think we're right about the pipe placement. Your real-world analogy is a good one.

I think the Vortex Pro is their only product that has a smaller diameter inlet pipe than the outlet.

I think there's merit to shooting fog be it hot or chilled into something like a fence, tombstone or wall etc. So it builds up in one area if you want some control over it. It will certainly rise in a slow cloud but it won't shoot straight into the neighbor's yard either. I got the basic idea in one of my recent video links noted in my Graveyard and Border Fence thread and then the one you may have seen Fog Tricks to Try to Help Combat Wind thread shows my tombstone test for those wondering what we're talking about. The combo of chilled slow moving dense fog into something should help control the fog. For that matter you could also see my trash can chiller fog hitting part of a tombstone and contained by a border fence in my Fog Chiller Trash Can Demo How-to Yard Haunt thread with a video link. Sorry that's a lot of links but they illustrate the point that's worth trying even with fog chiller output.

@ TM - I hope to have th evideo up tongiht or tomorrow. But I use the Igloo Ice Cube (Cube shaped) cooler which isn't as horizontal as your regular cooler. That may have something to do with your pooling. But Otaku and gmacted use the shape of coolers you have so I would listen to them. Only they use more ice and higher wattage foggers with more velocity to get thru all that ice and therefore will be colder as a result of all that freezing.


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## arcuhtek

*Holy Cow!!!!!*

All I can say is HOLY COW!!!!

Oh my goodness.....I am speechless.

I started testing the Vortex again today at 6:00 pm. The weather was PERFECT....no wind.....62 degrees.

I placed the vortex in a planting bed (whereas before it was in the middle of the yard), got a bunch of my testing accessories and began....here is what I learned:

1. I WAS using the Vortex PRO incorrectly. This time I fired into the 3" dia. inlet....

2. I used a full load of 60 lbs of standard ice cubes, no salt.

3. The result was amazing....a HUGE....HUGE fabirc of low, low, low, VERY COOL lingering fog. Yes the wind (or lack thereof) helped, but you could tell the correct inlet made all the difference.

4. Why was my previous test such a failure? Because I had the fogger 3-4 inches from the inlet. My Hurricane 1700 needs to be more along the lines of 12 inches from the inlet. I tried several distances and this worked best.....no question. Best of all? NO BACKWASH.....until the unit completely shut off for re-heat.

5. I fired against a wall. This worked well....but the fog began to rise immediately. This is great if you want immediate atmosphere...but if you want lingering fog...not so good. I understand this method is for combating wind.....not when you have a perfect day like I had today.

6. I tried firing with NO lid whatsoever. OH MY....the effect was INCREDIBLE. Let me say it is VERY tempting to simply leave the lid off. But I learned from this too. The ice must be thick and maximum quantity for this to work well. I would highly suggest a full (or at least 50/50) load of dry ice if you want to leave the top lid off. But I say with certainty of you had dry ice the fog would be AMAZING...low...creepy and just plain ......unbelievable!

7. My earlier tests ran for about 1 hour to 90 mins. I used 20lbs of ice. Tonight I ran for three hours and consumed 40-50 lbs. I had very little left over..... But I fogged a lot....basically when the machine was not reheating it was fogging. So this to me, confirms that using the Vortex Pro properly consumes MORE ice. Maybe one could debate this....but I am convinced. I will be using a boat load of dry ice on Halloween.

8. I used the trash bag with MUCH success. AWESOME and easy mod. It definitely works! I am only sad I only had the small kitchen size on hand. I will be finding the large leaf bags before Halloween.

9. The Hurricane 1700 is NOT too much power for the Vortex Pro, but for my taste, I prefer a slower, constant, continuous fog as I have been saying all along. I might also add that the Hurricane 1700 had a VERY LONG reheat time after blasting. I blasted max.....I did the timer with small blasts with intervals of pause....I tried everything. This darned thing still reheats for what seems like 10 mins at a time. Long enough for the fog to dissipate....fully...even on a calm night. NOT GOOD enough for me. I will be buying another machine tomorrow.

10...back to the ice. By the end of y 3 hour test session I could easily tell the fog was not clinging to the ground as well. So I emphasize.....one really needs a lot of ice on hand if you want a lot of fog.

11. If you want lots of fog in the air....dont use the trash bag....fire into a wall.....and/or use the Vortex with the lid removed and lessen the amount of ice you put into the tray. Doing so will cause the fog to stay higher than low fog...but not simply rise and disappear. I did this tonight....and it fogged the whole darned neighborhood. As a matter of fact...three cars stopped and asked if my house was on fire! Pretty impressive. I prefer low fog....crawling at your ankles.

I am now SUPER excited about Halloween.....and I just pray for a night like tonight. Now if I could only get those street lights to turn off......

Anyway....I hope this thread is helpful to people...I certainly feel like I have my moneys worth....even if it was expensive. I almost feel like I got my moneys worth in education. In fact....I think I want to build a vortex from scratch now....for my other foggers!


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## Fright Zone

Nice! 

Yeah the backwash only really shows up when the fogger shuts off.

How much water collected in the bottom when the ice melted? 

Me I'm liking my slow rising atmospheric fog. Luckily if I don't get the ground-hugging fog I'm OK and actually prefer it.

I also found that chilled fog likes to find it's way to warmer atmosphere. I had to have my porch door cracked open to get the extension cord out there for tests and if the chiller was pointed anywhere near that direction the chilled fog wanted to go straight for the door and inside. That may be why the fog likes to pool near the tree mentioned earlier. It was hot inside so I turned the AC on and that helped. I have to be careful where I point the thing so the neighbors don't complain is why. But I did angle it away from the cracked door and it performed much better as far as staying low as long as possible prior to rising slowly and lingering. I have to look at the video to make sense of it. I tried 8 lbs of ice then 14 lbs. the reverse inlet and lower inlet. With and without the Pseudo venturi inlet (LOTL's version with 2 holes on each side) and with and without a trash bag oulet. It gets confusing.


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## Terrormaster

Fright Zone said:


> I also found that chilled fog likes to find it's way to warmer atmosphere. I had to have my porch door cracked open to get the extension cord out there for tests and if the chiller was pointed anywhere near that direction the chilled fog wanted to go straight for the door and inside. That may be why the fog likes to pool near the tree mentioned earlier. It was hot inside so I turned the AC on and that helped.


This explains a lot. I was actually gonna ask if ground surface conditions would affect the fog - such as temperature and moisture. I wonder if misting the ground around the props with warm water would force the fog closer to the props... Or maybe those hand warming packs... Hmmm... Too bad I have a trip to go on this weekend or I'd experiment more.

-TM


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## arcuhtek

Try an electric blanket around the tombstones..... 

Ahhh and the tricks and experiments continue to pile on....

For now I am satisfied with my findings, except that I think I may go to Wal-Mart and buy that "Might-As-Well, inc." trash can.

Or maybe I should just finish what I have on my to do list....my sister says I have too many planes flying in the air...."just land a plane...land a plane!"


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## Otaku

There's been a lot of observation on the effect of watering the grass or driveway where the chilled fog is dispersed. The reason that this helps is due to evaporative cooling of the wet surfaces. Wetted surfaces can be several degrees cooler due to this evaporation. Grass, having more surface area for the water to cling to, will be more effective in doing this. Dry areas will shed heat more quickly than wet areas once a heat source (the Sun) goes away. If wetted, that energy is used for evaporating the water causing a drop in temperature close to the ground. I would think that trying to heat the areas around props to draw the fog closer may work, because you'd be setting up a convection current where the heat source is located, but once the fog gets there it will rise along with the heated air.


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## Terrormaster

I wonder if spreading ice along the perimeter would keep the fog contained a little better?

-TM


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## Otaku

Spreading crushed ice in your lawn would definitely keep the fog low when flowing over the grass. Since grass can handle short-term frost without damage, it likely won't harm the foliage. You could do this trick in the bushes, too. Giving the cooled fog a cold surface to flow over will only be to the good. 

TM - I like the Digital Necropolis site. That rendering of the crypt with the FCG is very cool! Can't wait to see pics.


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## arcuhtek

So I purchased a VEI-950 today from Cool Stuff Cheap. During my testing, I decided that the re-heat timing for the Chauvnet Hurricane 1700 was too long (several minutes). It does not have a continuous function or a variable output control. It is a very powerful machine. Very loud too (compared to my very silent Antari ICE). I am sure the VEI will hiss compared to the Antari, and just so I am clear...I like the hiss on Halloween, but with four fog machines, it can overpower music and sound effects.

Yes there seems to be a new FC-4 controller available for the 1700 that will allow continuous and variable output, but no one has responded to see if that really works with the old 1700.......so with time ticking...I went with the VEI-950.


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## Fright Zone

I put my recent video tests online. Make of it what you will. It was fun up to a point. Then it got to be a bit much editing it. Maybe interesting to see the differences. Note: I was limited to a 400W fogger and short bursts because it reheats often & I couldn't fog out the neighbors. The descriptions that accompany each video are self-explanatory.

I wanted to try the 12 qt for kicks. On Halloween I'd go with the old 48qt, 8 lbs of ice and either the "Pseudo Venturi Inlet & Straight Pipe Outlet" (48qt Test 1 number 3) or "Pseudo Venturi Inlet & Trash Bag on Outlet" (number 6). Using the 90 degree bend inlet and lower expansion straight pipe outlet.

I used LOTL's venturi design. (2) 3/4" holes on each side for a total of (4) holes positioned nearest the fogger worked the best for me.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ2fAWoeB_A[/nomedia] uses the 1/3 tall ice tray and 90 degree inlet.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADiOhq3P3Mo[/nomedia] uses a 90 degree sweep inside connected to the outlet and a set-up without the vertical pipe. No ice tray.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkAfIlCdRjU[/nomedia] Basically what I knew all along just verified on video. 1/3 freezing chamber with 7-8 lbs of ice for a 2" or so expansion area at the top and 2/3 fog expansion at the bottom. Reverse inlet works fine for that fogger.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g88U57ypDqs[/nomedia] Used more ice piled up to the top of the inlet pipe. The lower pipe was used as an inlet for some tests. It backwashes every time the fogger turns off. Not a great velocity or density difference. So I stick with the reverse inlet.


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## Long_Tom

Props that are lit have their own heat source, so I don't think additional heat will be necessary to create a draft to pull in the fog. Also, light fixtures scattered throughout the display create little columns of rising fog. These can be a little annoying to deal with, but I seriously doubt any trick or treaters will notice.


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## BudMan

Would there be any merit to adding a block or two of ice into the chiller instead of all cubes? Might melt a little slower.


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## Daphne

I would be concerned that blocks would inhibit the fog too much. It seems like it would cause faster burn-throughs in the areas with cubes since the blocks would be a solid barrier.

After awhile, the ice does tend to clump up and create that type of situation on it's own. Periodically last year, I would take my big stick and break up the clumps for that reason. Otherwise, they stayed nice and solid but there were vertical tunnels beside them with nothing where the heat concentrated on the holes and melted the ice even faster.

It is a good idea though.


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## boscokid775

Im gonna have to agree, I think the idea here is surface area. Although blocks would cool down the interior of the chiller...cubes give more surface area for the fog to contact, thus cooling more.


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## arcuhtek

In my chiller(s) I use a few (10 or so) lbs of dry ice. Both for cooling the fog to a lower temp. but also to keep the ice from melting as fast. The chillers use 60lbs of standard ice.


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## BudMan

Ok, I understand the theories that are being discussed, but in the interest of building a better mousetrap, let's throw this one out there. The garbage can used with the vortex is huge. I wonder if you used two levels to chill. Fog in the bottom chamber, grill with block ice chunks (not blocking totally) in the middle, then the normal top rack with cubes. The blocks would prechill the fog and also help keep the cubes from melting away. Just a thought for a home built unit.


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## arcuhtek

I was JUST thinking about creating a second chamber in the vortex. You hit the nail on the head for what I thought would work best.

I would propose regular ice on the lower ice tray and dry ice on the upper. That way, the fog that hits the ice cubes, and is close to the temp required to make it sink back down, will never make it to the upper chamber. If the fog is really hot, the dry ice will def. take care of it. PLUS, the dry ice will chill the cubes below it (and the whole can as the cold is SO COLD that it affects ANYTHING under it.

PLUS......if you put ice cubes ABOVE the dry ice, the dripping melted water would expedite the dry ice melt too. Not good.

Kevin


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## Otaku

I've used dry/wet ice in a GotFog style chiller. I put the slabs of dry ice on top of the ice cubes. Unless there was a breeze, the fog never got more than 6" off the ground. It's a shame that dry ice costs so much - I'd use it every time.


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## arcuhtek

It is a shame dry ice costs so much. $1/lb for me. And it is NOT readily available here. And I need a lot...a LOT. But its so much better....in many situations.

I swear for as much as I have spent on the stuff...I wish I could just make it. LOL


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## Severin

You actually can make dry ice, but I don't think its cost effective. Maybe if you know someone at a welding supply.

http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3071533&bhcd2=1192939200


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## BudMan

Just in the interest of safety, that picture should have shown a gloved hand.


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## arcuhtek

When I posted that last night, I KNEW someone was going to respond with one of those dry ice makers. I started to be proactive and comment on them....since I already own one. I guess I am slightly ahead of that curve but let me explain and comment.

First, I live in Asheville, NC. Its a beautiful place, but it has its shortcomings with availability of many consumer products. Thank goodness for the internet. That having been said, my need for dry ice every year is a pain in the axx. I need over and above 100lbs of dry ice every year. So I spend about $100-$150 just on ice every Halloween. No complaints here. But I only have ONE resource for it. That is obviously a problem. One that is further complicated by the fact that this resource is a grocery store. For anyone who deals in dry ice, you know its a bad idea to buy dry ice until the day you really need it. Imagine whats its like trying to get dry ice from a local grocery store on HALLOWEEN day? Very tough. Now imagine what its like to get 100-150 lbs! Its very difficult, and when you do, you must go at 7:00 am and even then people look at you like you are taking the lion share of the entire communities fun. Okay so that is a bit of an exaggeration, but boy does it feel accurate.

Back to the point.

So I buy one of these "dry ice makers" last year. Of course, one can go and buy a professional machine that costs thousands of dollars. I opted for the bottom of the line machine that cost about $50-$75 bucks. THEN I had to buy the CO2 tank. $150 deposit and another $50 bucks for each tank. I got two. When it came time to make the dry ice, this thing SUCKED. It looked like it was snowing flakes, and in about 10 minutes I may have...MAY have had 1 to 5 lbs of dry ice. Tank is now empty. I start tank two. Same result. So basically, I have 10lbs of dry ice for $150 bucks, and another $150 on hold in deposit. NOT GOOD AT ALL. If anyone wants this thing...I will GIVE it to you for free. You pay shipping.


I think I should start a new thread on this type of device to let others know of my experiences! 

So this year I called the grocery store and RESERVED 200 lbs of dry ice ( I have two additional fog machines this year) and the Manager told me that they now have a storage cooler in the back that holds 800 lbs of dry ice. So it looks like I am good to go this year, and for years to come. I feel better now.


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## HalloweenRick

Archutek, just a thought, have you checked with the local Ice company in Asheville? We have a Ice plant right here in town and they have Dry Ice in stock. You many want to check the Yellow Pages and give some local distributors a call. If no one is listed in the Yellow Pages, call local restaurants and see where they get their Ice from.


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## arcuhtek

Oh beleive me after nine years.....I have tried everything. Ice companies (there are none....and the ones that are listed are no longer in business) and have even tried welding supply companies, since they deal in CO2 a lot.

Nothing, nadda, zip.

I have even resorted to contacting ice companies like AIRGAS in Charlotte, Atlanta, Knoxville, etc.....and offered to drive to them and pick it up. But since I have the grocery store allowing me to RESERVE it, I feel secure now. And I am not sure how much cheaper I would get it than $1/lb even from an ice company.


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## Fright Zone

I put up a new video showing a practical example of how the 48qt Igloo Ice Cube Cooler DIY Fog Chiller with 7 lbs of ice, a 400W Gemmy fog machine, a Pseudo Venturi inlet pipe and trash bag on the outlet performed in a yard in 60 degree rainy weather in a small open Yard Haunt graveyard display set-up.

It won't impress the high wattage fogger & tons of ice haunters loooking for ankle high creeping graveyard movie fog, but for the rest it will show what a small set-up in an average yard can do to add atmosphere if not low lying graveyard fog. It shows the insides of the chiller from another video at the end. I pu tmore info in the youtube video description.

"Fog Chiller Graveyard Fog Atmosphere Example 48qt Igloo DIY" [nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR8nTig7JFg[/nomedia]


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## Richie

Fright,

Great fog effect. I sort of regret building a chiller out of a 30 gallon garbage can. It requires about 9 or 10 bags of ice to fill it. I may go back to the igloo design for 2008.


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## BigDave

*Chiller Tests*

Well it only took forever, but I finally got the time to build and test my 60+ quart igloo chiller with the 3" inlet/outlet vs the 2". Sorry I have no way to take video at the moment.

SETUP:
60+ Igloo Cooler
40 lbs of ice
Reveresed Vortex Inlet/Outlet
VEI-950

I tested pretty late last night (9-11) with about 5-8 mph wind. 
3" OUTLET
Very good low lying fog, but the fog didn't travel as far. Not a problem with the VEI-950, but could be with a lower wattage fogger. When I added a PVC extension to the outlet the fog was noticeably more dense. Adding a trash bag helped it hang low a little better, but it really killed the momentum across my yard.

2" OUTLET
Fog moved noticeably faster (not a surprise) but was not a low lying. The PVC extension helped some and the Trash bag was a further improvement.

Overall, think I got the best peformance with the 3" outlet through a PVC extension. This is good because I decided I will hide the chiller and fogger on the side of my house (the fogger is a little loud) and pipe the fog around the corner to my graveyard.

FOG JUICE
The Froggy's freezin fog juice worked much better than the cheap stuff, but it lingers and fogged my whole neighborhood. The cheap stuff doesn't linger nearly as long so it dissipated before it got very far out of my yard (when the wind cooperated that is). I may go with the cheap stuff to reduce the chances of pis*ing off any neighbors (the stuff hung in the air about 10-15 houses away) or getting the cops on me.

ICE
The chiller can maybe hold 45 lbs of nice and it may not be enough. I burned through half of it during my 2 hours of testing last night. The good news is that my outlet temp for my fog was about 40 deg. That will do nicely in most temps.


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## Fright Zone

Thanx Richie. And BigDave, that's a good report with good concise notes. I assume your ice tray inside is 1/3 the height of the inside therefore a 2/3 freezing chamber. I think it would have to be with 40 lbs of ice(?) I use a 1/3 area freezing chamber only because it works better with my low wattage fogger. 

I think everyone's test results lately have proved that there's different types of chilled fog effects that can be achieved. And on top of that each haunter wants to achieve or control the fog to a certain degree for their own purpose. So that's really the essence of a DIY set-up I think and the whole point of the thread for those who may read and get this far and wonder why this one doesn't die or why there isn't a definitive conclusion


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## arcuhtek

There will likely never be a definitive conclusion because people are still trying to build better mouse traps. So will we.

Additionally, fog is very important to most haunts. So its popular.

I got my VEI-950 yesterday.....so now is time to play again.

Sheesh I should just buy a deep freeze and MAKE ice. Hmmm now theres an idea!


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## Fright Zone

Sepaking of a slightly different take on the basic idea, here's some photos on this person's page LRBScarecrow of a modified Got Fog design that worked for him. He saw my 48qt video and separated the ice with hardware mesh only not in a tray but on the side opposite the ABS inlet pipe. Here's a 



 of it's success.

I think Otaku modified the Got Fog one differently with a coffeee can lid and rubberized material around the hardware cloth tube that's back on on of these pages.

Ah it's the happiest time of the year (sorry Xmas  )


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## Daphne

BigDave, have you tried VEI's fog juice? I bought a 930T and their juice last year and was thrilled with how it did. I also built a 60qt igloo, reverse inlet chiller with the 2" input/output and plastic bag. 

I was disappointed that after awhile, the bag fills with water so performance degrades. I will periodically check the bag this year (I ran out of time to implement an improved design.

I can't speak to the other juices but VEI's works beautifully in my opinion. 

That is interesting regarding the noise level with your machine, I don't find mine problematic in that department.


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## Fright Zone

That reminds me I want to have at least three trash bags cut and ready to go so I can replace them easily on ToT. The 400W Gemmy and 48qt Igloo with 7 lbs of ice doesn't really build up a whole lot of condensation in the trash bag on the outlet but it wouldn't be a bad idea just to add a little ice and a new trash bag once or twice within 2 hours. It just has to look good on video


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## Daphne

Frightzone, why not just grab the bag, flop it around a little so the water runs out and let it keep going? With the end slit open, you'll quite possibly dump all the water out anyway trying to change it. 

If you are like me, all of the water will of course end up in your shoes!


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## Fright Zone

I've used the same bag for a lot of tests recently. I like the size I ended up with. I actually have to go buy more bags. I did shake it out last time but it was so wet and greasy from the cheapo Gemmy fog fluid I thought I might as well just cut some more and have them ready. Of course on the big day I'll forget where I put them :googly: For that matter I'm putting fresh batteries in other props right now. I'm glad only a 7 lb bag of ice works with my chiller for the effect I need to achieve.


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## BigDave

*No Problems with Froggy's*



Daphne said:


> BigDave, have you tried VEI's fog juice? I bought a 930T and their juice last year and was thrilled with how it did.


Daphne I think you might have misunderstood. The Froggy's juice worked great. Too great. I fogged about 300 yards of my street.  The cheapo stuff isn't as good and dissipates faster.

I was worried about fogging the whole neighborhood and getting a Halloween visit from the cops.


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## Daphne

Sorry, BigDave, I wasn't clear. The VEI juice fogs the area/street also but not as much as the Froggy's I don't think. I was throwing it out there as a middle ground between the two extremes. Sorry for the confusion.

I had that same concern last year though. There was a LOT of fog ha, ha.


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## Lunatic

*Hi Folks, good to see everyone working diligently as always.*



Daphne said:


> BigDave, have you tried VEI's fog juice? I bought a 930T and their juice last year and was thrilled with how it did. I also built a 60qt igloo, reverse inlet chiller with the 2" input/output and plastic bag.
> 
> I was disappointed that after awhile, the bag fills with water so performance degrades. I will periodically check the bag this year (I ran out of time to implement an improved design.
> 
> Hi Daphne,
> I see you too built a 60 qt reverse inlet igloo with 2" pvc. I hope it works well for you. I built two last year and really love them. I really don't have any time to test before halloween but I'm going to finally use my Martin 800 with the igloo. I can't wait. I'll try and post some pictures if I can figure that out.
> 
> You mentioned the outlet bag filling with water and I experienced the same thing last year. It wasn't just a matter of draining the water, it just builds up so much condensation inside the bag that it gets too heavy and chokes itself. So I gave up on the idea and just used a short length of 2" pvc with a 45 down to the ground. And for everyone using the bag, please don't misunderstand me, the bag appears to be working well for many of you, I wish it would for me. I just ran out of time trying to get it to work well.
> 
> To all, I still enjoy reading all of this great info and hard work. Thanks for sharing!


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## arcuhtek

Tested the VEI -950 last night. Without the Vortex plugged in...was a quick test....to see if it made it through shipping in tact.

This is awesome. The VEI-950 does do REAL continuous fog non stop at 50% output dialed in (YEAH FINALLY!). It is EXTREMELY quiet compared to any other machine I own. The out put does not come close to matching the Chauvet Hurricane 1700....no where near it....but the Hurricane is 10 times louder....really.

The VEI-950 could be running within feet of T0Ters and no one woudl know it was a machine. The Hurricane 1700 scares my dog from across the yard.

I also noticed the fog output was different and seemingly thicker than the Hurricane 1700.

So Halloween 2007 set up is like this:

VEI-950 plugged into Vortex, set at continuous and at 50% flow....so the fog moves slower and dissapates slower. Will plug in a 8 foot long PVC pipe with trash bag at end. Load vortex with 60 lbs of standard ice, add 2 inches of dry ice on top. Will try it with vortex lid on and off.

Hurricane 1700 plugged into my CITC fog chiller (worthelss really but hey its all I have), loaded wtih dry ice.

Antari Z-Ice running all by itself with dry ice.

CITC Fog Max....still not working...will try to fix today. Even if I get it working...I have no fog chiller...so maybe this will be slow output and for atmosphere only.


----------



## Daphne

Lunatic, how would you compare the short length of PVC with 45 to the ground against the bag solution?

Arcuhtek, "scared your dog from across the yard" I am still laughing at this visual! The 950 runs continously at 50%? Sweet! I may have to add another fogger next year and that sounds wonderful! I oscillated heavily on both the 940 and 950 last year but in the end, my husband saw how much I had already spent ha, ha....


----------



## Lunatic

Daphne,

My observation was that the pvc with a 45 pointed downward produced some dense fog that spread on it's own. The bag trick was similar and perhaps a little wider spread initially but the condensation build up for me wasn't worth it. Especially if I had to toy with the bag often. Also, keep in mind that I used my chillers with the cheaper F/X 700 watters. Using a different fogger with higher wattage is a variable that changes everything. Also, I use Froggy's Freezin Fluid which produces a better fog than the cheap stuff.

It's supposed to be around 40 degrees in the Boston area on Halloween. I hope the fog is still good!


----------



## arcuhtek

Yep my poor black lab hates that Hurricane 1700 hissing. He can hear it from anywhere on my property...and once he does...he hides until its turned off.

Just another update.

I ran the VEI-950 AGAIN today from 3:00 pm until 9:00 pm. Six hours.....continuous output, NEVER stopped..not even once. Output/flow was at 50%, perhaps even slightly ABOVE 50%. Beautiful nice flowing, sppoky atmosphere fog. I was not using the Vortex as my only objective was to find out if thi sthing REALLY never stops on continuous mode.

Well, we have our answer. Its the bomb! For $250, heck I would buy another one. The Hurricane 1700 is a POWER blaster. No comparison on volume. But for the Vortex, I am convinced the best set up is slow, even, continuous fog. Now its almost time to REALLY find out.


----------



## Daphne

Very cool arcuhtek! Thanks for the update. I have my answer on which additional machine I need to pounce on next year! Continuous fog. Sweet!


----------



## Daphne

FWIW, I ran everything last night as a dry run. I tried the short piece of PVC with the 45 on the chiller. (60qt Igloo, 1000 Watt VEI 930T fogger) Unfortunately, the 45 didn't work well with my machine. It was better than without the 45 but not substantially different in terms of shooting out low-lying fog. I stuck the bag on the end of the 45 and it was great. Well, it was great periodically when the wind wasn't taking everything away. The wind was such that the fog never got out to the end of the cemetary. Oddly enough, I checked the bag several times and shifted it around but it never waterlogged like before and it ran around 3-3.5 hours.

Tip of the day. If you change the timer substantially, watch your fluid level. I went out periodically to check and suddenly heard this horrible noise. There was still fluid in the fogger reservoir but the airstone wasn't in it. It didn't appear to hurt the unit, I quickly refilled it and it worked fine.


----------



## arcuhtek

airstone?


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## Otaku

arcuhtek said:


> airstone?


That's the sintered brass filter on the end of the pump inlet line. It looks like an airstone, which is used to aerate aquariums. They create lots of tiny air bubbles in the water.


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## Daphne

Thanks for correcting my mistake Otaku. I had no idea what to call it but it does look like an airstone. An airstone would be stupid in this application though. It is being used to pull liquid through, not force air out. Sorry about that, I shouldn't have used that term.


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## Otaku

You were correct in your description, Daphne. Actually, an airstone would probably work just fine for filtering fog juice. Each of those devices has lots of very small pores that would keep out the impurities in the juice. It really is the same thing, just a different material.


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## Lunatic

Daphne,

I see the bag works best for you and it makes me think. My cheap 700 F/X foggers produce wet fog that may be causing more condensation build up inside the bag than your machine does. I'm going to try the bag using my Martin fogger in which they claim produces a dry fog. If I see a difference I will post the info.


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## arcuhtek

I know what th brass/ceramic filter is...I just didnt know what an airstone is/was. I dont own an aquarium....so thanks for letting me know. Its clear now.


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## Daphne

Lunatic, please post what you find with your Martin and the bag method. I have no idea if VEI's generate a dry fog or not. This is my first fogger.

arcuhtek, I've had aquariums for 27 years and forget that everyone else doesn't know all the equipment terminology. 

On an oh so proud note: one day this week, my youngest daughter looked out the window and said, "Hey, that is some really nice low-lying fog over there".


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## JustMatt

My VEI 940 (I think) seems to produce a dry fog.


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## Magic Taco Truck

Just thought I would pop in and share a picture from Halloween night. I built a Vortex style chiller using a rectangle Igloo cooler and it worked perfectly. I suck at taking pictures but I think this particular picture is clear enough to demonstrate how well the fog chiller worked. The lack of wind certainly helped, but I absolutely love the way that the fog hugged the ground and lingered.


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## Hellspawn

I had a total of 3 chillers and 3 foggers running on Halloween, the foggers are all the 700w lite f/x models and two of the chillers are 48q igloo's with the third being a 35? gallon brute trashcan built as a vortex, the brute performed much better than the two 48q igloos, the only difference was size and amount of ice.

the force of the fog comming out of the igloos was greater than the brute treashcan, if I had ZERO wind/breeze im fairly positive they would have similar results, but as it was with a very light breeze, the fog (even using a 45 degree angled to the ground on the output) wasnt sufficient to slow the fog down enough to keep it from blowing around, it still was a 100% improvment over no chiller, but I could see a difference.

This year im going to try and find a couple larger coolers and keep the smaller ones for the smaller 400w foggers I have sitting on the shelf.


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## Lunatic

*I know this is late but wanted to update.*

I compared my Martin 800 and 700 F/X foggers through my 60 qt cube w/2" pvc reverse vortex set up. This was done on Halloween night and i had no time to evaluate the bag. Sorry but I simply didn't have enough time this year. I can say that the Martin fogger produces a little more dense fog with much better control. Although the 700's still perform well. I used Froggy's Freezin fluid in both units. Bottom line, It was windy and the fog didn't hug the ground for long. With three foggers I certainly did fog up the neighborhood and I didn't even have the units set on their highest.

I must say that personally I'd rather not have continuous fogging because the fog would be too thick to see my graveyard scene. The fog lingers around for a while when cycling anyway. My final words about the Vortex inspired fog chillers is that it still produces an outstanding performance than just fogging alone. People who have never seen this sort of thing are simply amazed and no one is chilling fog in my neck of the woods.

Still the best thread I've ever been connected to and thanks to everyone!


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## Nancj

just a quick question, I'm building a chiller out of a 5 gallon bucket but how do you go about draining the water from the melted ice? I read about 50 pages of this post but I just couldn't find any info. should I continue reading? please say no. Thanks


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## Hellspawn

I dont think anyone went into detail on how to drain the ice melt from the chiller, most of us (big assumption) use our chillers outside so drain off is not an issue, only cheap/easy fix I can think of if you are using it indoors is to find a food service tray of somesort (4-6'' deep) and place the fogger and chiller in that with slight modifications for height to accomidate the fogger and output of the chiller in relation to the depth of the tray.

Other option is to build in a type of drain that will run the run off away from your chiller, for me personally, its not worth the work, even if I used it indoors, I would just stick it all in a rubbermaid bin or something and cut out a hole for the chiller ouput.

Not sure if I answered your question or not :googly:


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## Nancj

Thanks Hellspawn, I am planning on using my chiller outdoors. could I just as easily make a hole on the bottom of the bucket? will that make too much fog come out of the bottom or does it need to drain off the side with a hose attached? also the outlet pipe is that put in vertically or is it horizontal? am I making any sense?


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## Hellspawn

first off, talking about the orientation of the inlet/outlet pipe one pipe will be vertical (through the ice) and the other is just a horizontal, depending on which one you want to use for the input/output is up to you and subject to experimentation, its all what works best for you, so to answer your question, I have found that there is no "right" answer, build it and start experimenting with it to get the best results for you.

I have never placed any drain holes in any of my chillers, im not worried about any water escaping if any, I just dump whatever ice is left and whatever water is in the chiller when the night is over

dont worry about any drainage holes unless it really bothers you, it wont hurt the fog output to have water in there from what I have experienced.


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## Nancj

You are awesome!!
Thanks so much, I thought it would be a problem to keep the water in but apparently it comes out of the inlet pipe, DUH!!! my bad :googly:


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## Fright Zone

You'll just get more chilled fog backwash if you use the straight pipe as the inlet as opposed to using the 90 degree one as the inlet. It doesn't hurt anything it just bugs some of us is all.

I don't use more than 7-10 lbs of ice in a 48qt Ilgoo so the water collecting isn't much over a 2 hour period. I dump it on the lawn by holding the cooler upside down. The drain plug that is on it doesn't work very well unless there's a lot of water that's collected inside.


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## Nancj

Yes I did use two 90 degrees, one for the inlet and one for the outlet. I'm waiting for the seal around the PVC to dry before I can test drive it. I had planned on making the vortex for Halloween but ran out of time( I'm sure you can all relate) but I still wanted to make it and have it ready for next year. I wasn't going to test it before storing it away, after all, watching so many of the videos and pictures on the the forum it would just seem redundant. But darn it! its just so damn exciting I cant wait to let'er rip tomarrow. I'll just need to warn the neighbors so that they don't call the fire dept.
Thanks for the input!


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## BigDave

*Drainage Not Really A Problem*

I used my 60+ quart cooler this year with a VEI-950 on constant fog for about 4 hours. I had to refill several times as the constant output just burns through the ice. I used 90 lbs of ice for the night and didn't worry about it. I originally had the drain plug open, but it was letting out too much fog. So I closed it. I drained some water through the plug after about 2 hours and then closed it again.

The water just sits in the bottom until it reaches the horizontal pipe (either inlet or outlet depending on how you use it) and then it will leak out the pipe.


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## NickG

I added a brass garden hose fitting (double male) to the bottom of my kitty litter pail vortex mini (just like how it's sold) and run a short garden hose out the garage door. (it's for my witch cauldron, which is in the garage)


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## Nancj

WOW!!! no wonder you guys just can't stop talking about it. I just tried mine out today and what a difference. the fog was thick and lowww.... very nice, and yes the melted ice was not a problem. can't wait to get it running next year. unless I can incorporated it some how with my X-mas scene 
Thanks again for all your input it was very helpful!!


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## Troy

Nancj said:


> WOW!!! no wonder you guys just can't stop talking about it. I just tried mine out today and what a difference. the fog was thick and lowww.... very nice, and yes the melted ice was not a problem. can't wait to get it running next year. unless I can incorporated it some how with my X-mas scene
> Thanks again for all your input it was very helpful!!


Now get you some Froggys Freezin Fog Juice from Froggys Fog and you will really be a happy person.

www.froggysfog.com


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## Lunatic

I agree with Troy, Froggy's Freezin fluid works great and that is what I use. But ya know, nothing works great when there is wind and for me it was windy on Halloween. No biggy, I'm just greatful that it wasn't raining. 

Nancj,
I'm a little late on responding but water drainage for me has never been a problem. Like you say, the water just comes out of the outlet, if it's the reverse vortex configuration that is. I use about 35 pounds of quality ice in each 60 qt cube and no more than half the ice is gone after 3 hours using 700 lite F/X foggers set on medium to high. My Martin 800 watter didn't use much more ice. 

Still one of the best effects that I've ever built and my 60 qt cubes will last forever!

At this time I'm thinking about nothing but eating some turkey and stuffing! Happy Holidays!


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## Nancj

Thanks Lunatic. 
About Forggys Freezin fluid, is that found in the halloween shops, and does it cost more then the regular fog juice. also how big of a difference between the two is there if any.


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## Lunatic

Nancj,

The Froggy's Fog Juice Fluid (aka Kool Fog) is about 22 bucks a gallon and cheaper in cases of 4 gallons or more. But with FedEx ground service it pushes it up to 31 bucks delivered. It is more expensive than the cheaper stuff that I can buy in the local party store. I did a side by side comparison last year and Froggy's did produce a denser fog that hugged the ground a little longer but it's not necessarily worth the extra money.

Can I honestly say that it's worth two or three times as much as the cheaper stuff? Hmmm, that is a tough question. I have heard that the cheaper low quality stuff may have debris in it that can clog your fogger. But, I've talked to people that use it and they just filter the fluid and never have a problem. I think for me using medium sized foggers(700 F/X) that cycle and the fact that I only use one gallon on Halloween, it's worth it to me to get the extra performance, especially if it's cold outside. If using a higher wattage continuously running fogger and if you live in a warmer area of the country it may not be necessary. Maybe someone else can give you a better answer. This is only my second year chilling fog so I'm pretty new at it. I'm sure you will agree that the most important thing is chilling the fog. Happy Holidays!


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## Fright Zone

Cannot let this die 

Since I created my new youtube Channel this week based on an old one, I organized my (9) DIY Vortex Style Igloo Ice Cube Cooler Fog Chiller how-to's, tests, sizes & modifications into one Playlist with detailed descriptions. I think it should be noted here for future reference and after all the time spent on this discussion in the past.

It also includes a video of the ghostofhalloween.com Trash can chiller option with the trash bag on the outlet real live Halloween T-o-T night functionality. (I forget who deep in this thread suggested it but it works!)

I also included the 400W Gemmy store-bought small chiller for comparison which I eventually took back and which started me on this Vortex Thread Odyssey once I saw the Igloo Ice Cube cooler when I was at Wal-Mart that fateful return day:

Here's the Playlist of videos:


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## Dr Morbius

Oh NO! Not the fog chiller thread of death! LOL! just kidding, glad to see you back, FZ!


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## Dr Morbius

Thanks for all the tests..So what is your conclusion for best setup?


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## corner haunt

Daaaaaamb! Old thread! :jol: I love the use of the the cat litter container, but does it keep the ice long enough? I'm sure the answer is in here somewhere, I just didn't feel like reading 81 pages.


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## Lunatic

FZ,
Good for you for keeping this thread alive, it's an important one!

Corner Haunt,
People have used the kitty litter containers with success but logic suggests that an insulated cooler will keep the ice much longer. Depending on the size of the area your fogging and the wattage of your fogger the kitty litter container may be too small to hold enough ice without replenishing it often.

I use 60 qt coolers with 700 watt foggers and it lasts all halloween night without adding more ice. According to some particpants in this thread you can definitely use a smaller cooler with 400 watt fogger and get very good results. Good luck!


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## davy2

not sure if this is in this giant thread, as I did not look at every page, but Make magazine 2007 halloween issue has some instructions for making a chiller with a trashcan and dryer hose...I'm going to build this one...not sure if the Halloween issue is still available, but it's available online (I think you have to register or subscribe) at http://www.makezine.com


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## corner haunt

Lunatic said:


> Corner Haunt,
> People have used the kitty litter containers with success but logic suggests that an insulated cooler will keep the ice much longer. Depending on the size of the area your fogging and the wattage of your fogger the kitty litter container may be too small to hold enough ice without replenishing it often.
> 
> According to some particpants in this thread you can definitely use a smaller cooler with 400 watt fogger and get very good results. Good luck!


 Thanks. I wanted to know, because with 5 cats I have these buckets in a constant supply.:jol:


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## Texan78

Hey Fright Zone, great videos. I watched them last year and you do a very good and descriptive job on them. 

I have been doing research on these chillers and from the observations I have taken the type of fog machine you use should match the size of chiller you need to make or use. For example 400 watt machine will work perfect with the cat litter box style chiller. You might be able to get away with a 700 watt. The reason and my conclusion on this is that the higher wattage machines output the fog at a higher rate, that much is true and we do know. So with that said, you don't want a 1000 watt on up to like a 1700 watt fogger on a cat litter box style chiller. Reason being is that since it is outputting at a higher rate and the box is so small. The fog will not have a ample amount of time to chill enough compared to a 400 watt low output on this style chiller. IMO I think the trash can style would work better on higher volume machines because it has more time to chill because it has to travel farther before exiting the can giving it more time to chill. Same can be said for the cooler style that runs straight through like the gotfog.com style. I used that one last year on my 700 watt machine and it worked ok, but wasn't great. It hung low at first and shorter bursts are the key but after a few seconds it would start to rise. So I would not use that on any machine higher then 700 watts because the output of the other machines will just blast right through that chamber without giving it enough time to chill. On the gotfog.com style chillers though that use the straight though chamber I added frozen water bottles filled with saltwater that the fog had to flow over. That seem to help it more, but still wasn't great. So I think if you take into account the size of your machine to the style of chiller you may get better results. You can use smaller machines on bigger coolers and the effects are going to be greater. I just don't think you will see the ample output like with the higher wattage machines causing you to have to use more juice in smaller machines to get the fog to travel the longer distance. 

So in conclusion, if you take in account the size of your machine. It might help you better decide on what style chiller you will need to use to get the best results.


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## Shanahan

Ok ok...so I've been reading this thread for the last week or so on and off.

I've always been intrigued by the deathlords fog chiller from early on.

A few years ago I built a chiller using the 32 gallon trash can and the dryer hose. using a 1000w fogger worked pretty good!

Always curious about the vortex and wanting to find out how it was made, stumbled onto this thread and found gold.

Ok so off to Lowes for some plumbing parts...

32 gallon trash can again but made to specs of the vortex using 3" pipe.

While I find that the vortex uses quite a bit less ice than the trash can dryer hose one, this Vortex thing really kinda chaps my ass!

Vortex has alot of fog escaping from the inlet during reheat from the fogger, it just comes billowing out the inlet hole. Dumb! "Reverse" method seems to solve this problem. 

My opinion vortex in reverse, if your gunna use this type of chiller.

Dryer hose chiller, no escaping fog from inlet, and fog seems to travel further also. This idea that the corrugated hose works against the fog is B.S. from what I've seen.

Not bashing vortex idea, but a lenghthy project compared to the dryer hose trash can idea.

I was really hoping for better vortex results! 

Back to dryer hose chiller for me, well to be honest probably both.


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## Otaku

I had the same problem, fog escaping during reheat cycles. The reverse Vortex does solve that - keeps the end of the fog inlet pipe at the top of the chiller so no backflow.


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## gmacted

A constant fogger will also fix the problem. No rehreat cycles!


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## Otaku

gmacted said:


> A constant fogger will also fix the problem. No rehreat cycles!


Yep, that's the plan for next Halloween!


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## SQWIB

Shanahan
I am in the middle of my Trash Can Chiller, but instead of the trash can I'm using a 55 gallon drum that's been insulated inside. I am taking many pics and keeping notes so I can blog this if it works well.
The fogger is a Chauvet 1700 and opted for 24' of dryer hose how much hose did you use on your Trash Can Chiller, I also agree the corrugated as opposed to the smooth is BS. maybe part of the reason a TC Chiller works well is that the corrugated duct acts as a type of baffle allowing the fog to tumble over on itself...just a thought.


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## SpookySteve

SQUIB
You are right about the corrugated surface of the dryer hose. It would cause the fog to maintain a turbulent air flow, at least along the walls of the tubing, throughout the entire length of the dryer hose. Turbulent airflow is much more efficient at transferring heat than smooth air flow. 
The corrugated metal also has the other benefit of increasing the total surface area of the tubing that comes into contact with the fog. This would help to cool the fog down in a shorter length than a smooth walled tube would.


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## OpenTrackRacer

Holy cow! Just finished the entire thread. I'm going cross-eyed and all I can see are fog chillers!

I need to build two chillers for this Halloween. My design has been changing as I read the thread. I think I know what may be best at this point but I figured it wouldn't hurt to post for comments.

I'm planning on using the Igloo 60 quart "Ice Cube" rolling cooler. It seems like a modified reverse Vortex is the best route. So, straight output pipe at the bottom of the cooler with the ice tray just above. Input though the 90 degree bend with the pipe (and ice) going to around 2" from the top of the cooler (plus room from the domed lid). All the pipes will be 2" diameter.

I'm going to use plastic eggcrate for the ice shelf supported by a Vortex style crossed PVC framework.

I'm wondering of the step design of the Igloo will cause the ice tray to be too high? I can also get the 50 quart non-rolling version which doesn't have this issue.

I'll be using this with my Chauvet Hurricane 1250 foggers. Speaking of that, did we ever get anywhere with that new timer that had the continuous output button?

Thanks!


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## Shanahan

Sqwib

I think I used three sections, I dont remember how much it was exactally as I made it several years back. I did remember stretching it out, making the turns.....(going to check) Ok yes used three sections. I would say it just depends on how big of container you have. You want alot of tube to fit in there however you also wanna keep room for ice in mind also. Inlet from the bottom all the way up to the top then spiral coil down to your output.

Ok back to Vortex...

Reverse mode, 1000w fogger
Also moddified standard timer duration pot with resistor so It can run longer.
40 qt cooler filled with ice to fill my upper chamber with ice

Really good for a couple hours then it seems the ice bonds into a huge block and fog doesnt stay low much.

Maybe this is why they now sell the magic volumizer vortex crystals to mix in with the ice. 
Volumizer crystals = Rock Salt?

I know the ice type issue was mentioned about 40 or so posts back, so I'll be going to Home Depot or Lowes back by the water softeners to find some rock salt. 

Rocksalt may keep ice from bonding on itself (staying less dense)= fog staying low for longer periods of time (more ice surface area to pass through).

Will post back with some results,


----------



## Shanahan

Ok some results...

Vortex has low ground fog for roughly the first hour or so after that it tends to be more on the rise.

Magic Volume crystals does seem to be rock salt. I would have to have a chemical anylasis to actually confirm this however, I'll go off on a limb here and say that it is. Based on photos, its application, and a friend put them to the taste test. lol!

What does rock salt do, for our application? Melts ice. Salt keeps the ice from bonding with itself, and more porous. Salt keeping upper chamber less dense in return more surface area for the ice over longer periods. 

While the vortex does a good job in that the fog actually comes into contact with the ice, I would say it would indeed make the fog colder than other fog chiller versions. I would have to add as mentioned previously, that the ice tends to bond with its self after about an hour from fog heat causing poor performance.

Pros: colder, lower lying fog. Less ice

Cons: lenghtly project(compared to other versions),effective mainly during early stages about an hour or so(unless rock salt is used or "volumizing crystals" or you wanna manually go break ice up every hour), backwash at inlet during fogger reheat cycles(running reverse method solves this).

In conclusion, I like the vortex! A lot more fooling around, and additives to get it running good, but I enjoyed building one, and like its effects. While the trashcan dryer hose type is good also, its a more set it and forget it chiller. 

My opinion for fog chilling...if your busy and want an easy solution "trashcan dryer hose build" If you like to tinker, and have a little more free time, Vortex.

Just my opinions, figured I would share my experiances, and results.


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## TNBrad

corner haunt said:


> Thanks. I wanted to know, because with 5 cats I have these buckets in a constant supply.:jol:


I have a few cats; but, what I wnated to say is the local Humane Societies offten get these kind of Kitty litter boxes donated and they might have several you could have for the asking.


----------



## jfoster38122

Anyone ever build it with two trays? Just wondered if it's worth the effort.

Jerry


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## OpenTrackRacer

Just got around to uploading the pictures of the fog chillers I built for this year. All three are Vortex designs built into Igloo 60 quart "Ice Cube" coolers. The shelf support is made from 1/2" PVC and the shelf itself is a cut down light fixture grate. All the pipes are 2" ABS.














































A few items of note... I had to buy a relatively expensive hole saw to do this. The 2" ABS needs a 2 3/8" hole. I used a Rigid saw and mandrel from Home Depot (total cost around $30). The light fixture grate cuts easily with a set of wire cutters and was very easy to fit. I used a ratcheting PVC cutter which made things go very quickly as opposed to a saw. The coolers were painted with Krylon ultra flat black camo paint. Unfortunately, it doesn't stick very well and it's already peeling off.

I did one test with about a 1/4 load of ice. The fog stayed low and came out very cold to the touch. I expect these will work well when fully stocked. I'll be using all three with Chauvet Hurricane 1250 fog machines. One will pump fog out of a witch's cauldron. Another will pump the fog through around fifteen feet of perforated 2" ABS pipe behind one of the graveyards. The third will be in a van putting fog out through the open side doors.

I'll take pictures of them all in action and post them after Halloween.


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## corner haunt

They sell paint for plastics that should stick for you. It is often used for repainting white resin chairs.


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## OpenTrackRacer

Yeah, I know. I took the advice from other posts about how great the Krylon Camo paint was and how it didn't need primer.

Oh well, live and learn!


----------



## BudMan

Just out of curiosity, and without rereading this entire thread again, has anyone tried a simple "baffle" on the inlet pipe to avoid the blowback? I would think that a smaller version of the plastic bag trick used on the outlet port would work well. Just a thought.


----------



## Lunatic

BudMan,

I do remember at least one person evaluating a valve but I'm not sure if it's from another thread. I use the reverse Vortex design which works well without a valve. The plastic bag is interesting but I would think that it would get too wet and not function well. OpenTrackRacer shows some excellent pictures of pretty much what I did two years ago and the design works very well.

OpenTrackRacer,

Holy cow, are you trying to fog up the neighborhood? Good for you! I use only two of them and my yard gets wicked foggy. I have to cycle them or people can't see.


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## OpenTrackRacer

Yeah, it ended up being a bit too much! Next year I'm going to use one fogger and split the output between a cauldron and the graveyard instead of using two like I did this year. That'll free up an extra fogger for another area.


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## DynamoBen

I recently finished my chiller and used it for one of the two halloween shows I did this year. Worked great, many thanks to this thread.

I was searching google patent today and found a set of patents you folks might be interested in:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=vpKXAAAAEBAJ&dq=Natural+smoke/fog+distribution+system

http://www.google.com/patents?id=wJKXAAAAEBAJ&dq=Natural+smoke/fog+distribution+system

http://www.google.com/patents?id=v5KXAAAAEBAJ&dq=Natural+smoke/fog+distribution+system


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## DynamoBen

BTW the last/most recent patent claims to be able to prevent leaching of fog out of the inlet.


----------



## Fright Zone

Here's yet another alternative but doesn't use ice which I think makes wispier fog when it rises for a nicer atmospheric effect than without ice. Here's their description: "Please read everything before asking questions: Low lying fog using an irrigation hose without ice. Amazing how the lack of wind helps. Block the end of the tube with tape though so the fog only comes through the holes. Low fog doesn't have as much to do with being cold but being more dense. The reason fog chillers work is because the cold makes the fog more dense thus it's heavier then air, causing it to be low. Plugging the end of the tube causes resistance and the fog has to compact before coming out the smaller holes. Granted, there was absolutely no wind when this was filmed. Wind breaks it all. This type of tubing can be bought at home depot near the PVC section for about 10 bucks. It already has holes in it."






But anyway back to the ice cooler. After all this (and not re-reading our entire monstrous thread) Did anyone actually buy the Vortex Fusion to compare? That which I got the idea to use the DIY Igloo Cube and of which we dissected the manual by which this 44,000+ viewed thread is therefor named. lol Haven't been here in a year, btw.


----------



## Paul R

I made one of the vortex type chillers out of a 32 gallon brute garbage can a few years ago for my backyard and it works beautifully. It will go all night without adding ice using a 1000 watt fogger. These are great for outdoor use since the ice will melt and drainage isn't a problem outside. I used one of these many years ago inside but drainage was an issue. I have since made a chiller for my indoor fogger that recirculates cold water through a copper coil so I no longer have to worry about draining water as ice melts.


----------



## Otaku

Fright Zone said:


> Haven't been here in a year, btw.


Good to see you back, FZ! Interestingly, I'm using one of those 10' perf drainage pipes. I fill it with frozen water bottles - works pretty good.

Wow, 44K+ views - that's gotta be some kind of record...


----------



## Moon Dog

Must be getting closer to Halloween if this thread is coming alive once again!


----------



## mroct31

I don't see why you couldn't use the irrigation hose with a cooler as I like the way the fog is more evenly distributed via the irrigation hose but being chilled first can't hurt?


----------



## fritz42_male

Hey, FrightZone - can you tell me what the background sound track is please?

It's a good one.


----------



## Fright Zone

^^^ Like Michael Myers it will not die 

^^ It's worth a try. Makes sense. You'd get ore of a spread. Not sure if a 400w fogger would be powerful enough or not. Maybe. It'd be more wispy and linger since it's chilled whether it lays perfectly low or not it'd be more atmospheric than without ice.

^ It's not my video or idea but he says in his description: "The music for this is from Grimvisions 2006 Graveyard" http://www.grimvisions.com/for-sale/graveyard-audio-2007. I think it sounds good also. 10-11 min.


----------



## fritz42_male

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Fright Zone

You're welcome and thanks to ghostsofhalloween for the find.

Now I lost one of my 400w Gemmy's in a move. Can't believe it. Worked fine with my chillers. Does anyone know if there's a 700W fogger sold online that accepts a timer remote?


----------



## Otaku

Michael's has a 400W Gemmy that you can get for 50% off ($20) if you can scare up a coupon. It works with the timer remotes sold at Party City and Target. I got one a couple weeks ago - it's quiet and has reasonable output for a small machine. I'll be using it for fogging a cauldron.

Found a thread here that has printable coupons. Thanks, TT!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/kristy510/coupons.jpg


----------



## spinman1949

*40 % coupon.*

The 50 % coupons have already expired, and the 40 % are good today only.


----------



## Otaku

Teary just posted a new one:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/kristy510/Michaels.jpg

50% off, good 'til Sept. 19th. Thanks again, TT!


----------



## Fright Zone

My Michael's doesn't have any foggers. But I was looking at this 700w Eliminator E-119 Gemmy look-a-like if I ever get to buy a new fogger:

http://tinyurl.com/q963nk

I didn't get a straight answer from the retailer if it works with this EF-TRM - Fog Machine Timer Remote. I suspect it does:

http://tinyurl.com/oxkuve

I posted my 400w results in the Atmosphere section but I don't think I ever posted them here. This is the 48qt cube with a trash bag on the outlet:






This is a trash can chiller. You have to get thru the whole thing to see the effect of no chiller, chiller with trash bag and no trash bag. I was quickly explaining it for posterity's sake after ToT 2006 prior to tearing everything down the same night(!). You can skip 1:00 to 3:00 where I describe the Gemmy fogger and took way too long to do it:






Low quality video prior to youtube offering higher quality unfortunately but you get the idea.

The bad news is I had to ditch both chillers in a move but did buy the last $8 trash can walmart had last week to make another one. Unfortunately the 48qt cubes are hard to find right now and it's not in the time or dollars budget to build a new one. But at least I know how to build one and that it works and how it works. After 85 pages I better


----------



## Lunatic

Oh man! I am so gosh darn happy you guys are keeping this thread alive. 

FZ, I too moved this year and have been busy completing an entire house renovation. The Hauntforum is my graceland during the madness. I may not be all that visible but I lurk in the background. Boo! 

Sorry, I'm a little off topic. I still have 2 reverse Vortex 60 qt cube chillers that I made thanks to you, Otaku, Gmacted and everyone else here. I think I might try the perforated drain this year to help slow things down a bit but of course its that wind issue which sucks no matter what. Thanks for the input and video. My new neighbors will be amazed.

Just a quick note on timers. I bought a timer several years ago before I built my chillers to use with a fogger that I borrowed. It plugged in fine but didn't work at all so not all timers work with all foggers. Oh well, it was a $25 lesson learned. All of my current foggers came with timers.

Thanks again folks!


----------



## steveshauntedyard

This is not a vortex but the zombie at the end is good looking


----------



## Fright Zone

^^ Yes they were very instrumental. A lot of people get credit for the modifications. I'll shamelessly take credit for discovering that the Igloo Cube shape mimics the Vortex Fusion but maybe someone else thought of it too when they looked at it on the shelves off-season. The trash bag on the outlet also seems to be a good idea. I wish I could go back deep into the thread and give credit to whomever first posted the idea here 

From page 82:


Shanahan said:


> My opinion for fog chilling...if your busy and want an easy solution "trashcan dryer hose build" If you like to tinker, and have a little more free time, Vortex.


That's the bottom line. Both work well but Vortex is more fun. 

^ That one looks like frozen water bottles inside PVC. Yes Cool Zombie Makeup!


----------



## Lunatic

I do remember back in 2006 when I jumped into this discussion that someone started the idea about the trash bag. I tried it and it worked for a while but it got too wet and choked itself off so thats why I don't use it. Maybe my 700watt foggers don't have enough power to push the bag open. I use a lot of ice and maybe it slows the velocity down too much. I'm not changing my configuration at this point though. It's true that this thread is sooo long that it's a chore to find the people to give credit. That is why I thank everyone.


----------



## Fright Zone

I used a 400W Gemmy and the trash bag with an Igloo Cube and another with a trash can and thankfully it did just fine for 2 hours. The only thing is the wind could pick it up and displace it so something would have to be put on either side to weight it down. But yes condensation does build up inside the bag. I guess you could have another bag pre-cut and just swap them out. But you do get a more controlled effect so I think it's worth it for me. 

I also think the 2" dia PVC pseudo venturi (which yet someone else thought of) with two holes drilled in it worked well too for the cooler. This way the fog wasn't destroyed between the fogger and the inlet.

yikes 2006? Seems like yesterday


----------



## gmacted

Lunatic said:


> Oh man! I am so gosh darn happy you guys are keeping this thread alive.
> 
> Sorry, I'm a little off topic. I still have 2 reverse Vortex 60 qt cube chillers that I made thanks to you, Otaku, Gmacted and everyone else here.


LONG LIVE THE VORTEX CHILLER THREAD!

I'm glad I could help.

I built a "Fog on the Rocks" chiller (predecessor to the Vortex Chiller) many years ago and still use it every Halloween. I've tried several variations based on this thread, but I still like my original configuration the best. I think I may stop at Home Depot and pick up some of the irrigation hose Fright Zone discovered and give it a try.


----------



## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> I also think the 2" dia PVC pseudo venturi (which yet someone else thought of) with two holes drilled in it worked well too for the cooler. This way the fog wasn't destroyed between the fogger and the inlet.
> 
> yikes 2006? Seems like yesterday


The pseudo venturi (which BTW I still use) was part of the original "Fog on the Rocks" chiller design. I think it makes my chiller work better.


----------



## Fright Zone

Good call. But instead of using the 'Y' adapter, I used a straight piece that has 2 holes drilled thru it for a total of 4 holes. One of our posters here put a video of his chiller showing that piece (unintentionally I think because it was just showing the results of the chiller). If I find a photo of mine I'll post it. It's a 2" dia PVC. I don't think a 3" dia would work if anyone actually bought the Vortex because that might be too big a diameter to fit flush wit a fog machine.

Yeah I'd like to see or hear your results with the Home Depot irrigation hose with and without ice. Is it you who has the constant fogger so the original design works best for you but does it have the 90 degree pipe going to the top?

I wonder if the originators of the Vortex products ever stumbled across this thread and wondered man we should sell it for less, then all these people would be doing is messing around with the DIY outlets of their Vortex. Damn the Igloo Cube on sale off-season at Wal-Mart.  It's seems like my 48qt cost a total of $55-60 to build not including the fogger but including a hole saw. Oh and a lot of time tinkering. But that's the DIY fun of it  I wonder if I'd revisit this if I hadn't ditched mine in a move.


----------



## gmacted

Fright Zone said:


> Is it you who has the constant fogger so the original design works best for you but does it have the 90 degree pipe going to the top?


Yes, I have a VEI V-950 1300 Watt constant fogger. I do not have a 90 degree bend going to the top (although I have tried that), but rather a 90 degree bend going to the ice tray. Here's a link to my chiller.


----------



## Fright Zone

Cool. Hey I actually remembered that 

I found Lotlster's video that shows the pseudo venturi with holes in it and right against the fogger:


----------



## mroct31

I don't know, watching that video at the end when he shows the fog laying low then pans up to the ceiling...I'd take that! Whatever fog that didn't stay down wouldn't get held in by anything outside so no worries there and by the look of it he had a nice layer on the floor hanging around which is what a haunter wants. He did mention that maybe for a DJ that wasn't the desired effect but for a haunter, HELLS YA! :devil:


----------



## scatter5

I noticed many pages back someone talked bout using a metal baffle at the end of the exhaust line what about using a shop vac 10in floor attachment? like this?

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4845497/Attachmentforvacuumingwetcarpet_Full.jpg

they have longer ones also


----------



## Night Watchman

I love this thread. I read most of it trying to figure out the design. I messaged people about it and finally came to a conclusion on how I would build it. I put a 90 degree angle to the top and a 90 degree elbow pointing up to the ice on the exhast tube. I was happy with the results. I used a 4 year old gemmy 400 watt fogger to test it and this was the results.

Fog coming out of the cooler









Fog moving across my lawn


----------



## scatter5

*all in one*

ok so I was building my chiller with a 30 gal trash can and had an idea. is there any reason the fogger cannot be in side a 3 shelved chiller?

like this:
http://gallery.me.com/seankatz/100103/allinone/web.jpg?ver=12561352420001


----------



## Wolverinegreg

*Improve chilling with Dry ice?*

Hi guys,

Thanks SOOOOOO much for this thread, you helped me a great deal. One thing I was wondering: would using dry ice on the ice tray work even more efficiently? And how often would I need to refill, knowing the Dry Ice sublimates fairly quickly?


----------



## Otaku

Longevity of the dry ice will depend on how often the fogger cycles. I got the best results by loading ~10 lbs of dry ice chunks on top of the ice cubes in my chillers. After 5-6 hours of fogging (700W and 800W foggers) almost all of the dry ice was still there and the fog laid very low.


----------



## Wolverinegreg

Thanks for the tips, and if I followed well, you design is the "inverted one" with the exhaust chamber at the bottom, right?


----------



## scatter5

*first reverse vortex*

well here is my first reverse vortex chiller. I used a Rubbermade Brute rollout 50 Gal. trash can and 3" PVC. I used a rivet gun to mount L bar to the sides to support the Ice rack. I think it was much easier then the whole PVC thing. Still need a gasket and tie downs for the lid. I think I will use velcro straps to make it tight.

here are the pics:

http://gallery.me.com/seankatz#100103/DSC_7590
http://gallery.me.com/seankatz#100103/DSC_7591
http://gallery.me.com/seankatz#100103/DSC_7592
http://gallery.me.com/seankatz#100103/DSC_7587

will try and post video tomorrow


----------



## henrythomas

Vortex Tubes offer cooling capacities beyond those available from our Cold Air Guns.Features of the vortex chiller:
1) Cool without refrigerants (CFCs/HCFCs) or moving parts for reliable, trouble- free operation.
2) Use no electricity -- intrinsically safe, no RF interference.
3) Compact and lightweight for easy installation -- even in tight areas.


----------



## Lunatic

Very good Scatter5. Looks great! Oh yes, there will be fog this year!


----------



## ih8needles

so i just built the goh trash can chiller and still running some tests but so far so good with my chauvet hurricane 1300 fog machine. ill try to post a video as soon as i can....


----------



## spinman1949

*Design looks good but!*

I have to question putting the fogger inside the unit. This means that hot fog is going to enter every nook and cranny of your fog machine. Not to mention that when fog escapes it expands and from what I have seen air needs to be part of the formula. In your design,where will the air come from? You could place a pancake fan to supply the air, but I am still concerned about what hot glycerin saturated moist fluid is gonna do to the electonics in the fogger. I don;t think I have ever seen anyone put the fogger in the fog itself.

Food for thought ?


----------



## Terrormaster

Anyone try this yet? There's a user on YouTube called subatomix who's doing low lying fog WITHOUT a chiller. Basically here's the info from the youtube page:

_Please read everything before asking questions:

Low lying fog using an irrigation hose without ice. Amazing how the lack of wind helps.

Block the end of the tube with tape though so the fog only comes through the holes.

Low fog doesn't have as much to do with being cold but being more dense. The reason fog chillers work is because the cold makes the fog more dense thus it's heavier then air, causing it to be low. Plugging the end of the tube causes resistance and the fog has to compact before coming out the smaller holes. Granted, there was absolutely no wind when this was filmed. Wind breaks it all.

This type of tubing can be bought at home depot near the PVC section for about 10 bucks. It already has holes in it._






Oh, and his site: http://www.ghostsofhalloween.com/


----------



## dasjman

I used this method along with another fogger hooked to a more traditional chiller. It worked well. On the advice of someone on these forums, I put frozen water bottles in the irrigation tubing and put a plastic sack on the end of the tube. I had very little to no wind and had excellent results. Once I get the pictures downloaded I'll post.


----------



## halfcracked

Been a while since I chirped in on this thread.

Just finished updating my Homer bucket vortex. I'm going to be using it in a kids show for special effects. I enclosed it in a box & added great stuff insulation.




























with 30 lbs of ice ($6) I get fog that hugs the stage about 2" tall until it rolls off the edge & falls into the seating area.


----------



## Fank&Stone

*Vortex reverse input or not?*

[email protected]!

I'm planning to build my own DIY fog chiller.
I want to use the Vortex design for it.
At the moment there are a few questions about the design & size of the chiller.

What is the better solution? Vortex with normal/standard airflow direction or with reversed?
Which coolersize is best for an 1200w fogger? Or doesn't size matter? 
I'm planning to use the chiller with a mix of watericecubes & dryice pellets.

Thanks for helping.

Best regards.


----------



## niblique71

Here's my design for a "Reverse vortex" Scratch built fog chiller . One distinct advantage my design has is that you can use variations of it as obilisk, or tombstone bases. That makes it a "Prop" instead of something you will want to hide in your haunt. SKauston did an amazing version of a celtic cross with a large "Chiller" based on my concept.

The Irony for me is that I created my (Chiller)version before I ever read this thread. 2 days ago I decided to try to read the ENTIRE thread to see if I could garner even more insight to further enhance my design. I've only made it 1/3 of the way through. It's full of REALLY Good information. There were TONS of experiments that everyone did (Just like I did) to test and discover why certain designs work better than others. Obviously I arrived independantly at many of the same conclusions I am reading in here.



> Fank&Stone Vortex reverse input or not?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [email protected]!
> 
> I'm planning to build my own DIY fog chiller.
> I want to use the Vortex design for it.
> At the moment there are a few questions about the design & size of the chiller.
> 
> What is the better solution? Vortex with normal/standard airflow direction or with reversed?
> Which coolersize is best for an 1200w fogger? Or doesn't size matter?
> I'm planning to use the chiller with a mix of watericecubes & dryice pellets.
> 
> Thanks for helping.
> 
> Best regards.


I would read my link and as much of this link as you could. ALL of your questions are inside. I've only made it 1/3 of the way through this thread since it's such a tedious read. It seems that the same 6 or 7 questions are continually asked in various incarnations. Kudo's to all that participated i this thread which started more than 5 years ago.

On the halloween weekend, I used 90% ice, and 10% dry ice in my chillers for 3 solid days. All 3 worked Flawlessly with 1000 W foggers. I had several kids lay on the ground to "hide in the fog" from thier siblings, so they could pop up and scare them (Future haunters??). 
Most tests I've seen are indoors. The real test is to do them outdoors on a cold day with real conditions (October-like). Ambient tempature has a LOT to do with how well any Chiller will work, as it is the tempature difference between the chilled fog and the ambient air tempature and wind that determine how low, and how long the chilled fog will remain. There are Many other factors that go into an effective chiller design as you will read in here.

Although my chiller was VERY effective, I still have some Ideas to improve it. I'm hoping to get the rest of the way through reading this thread.


----------



## Booo

*Wow, I read the whole thing!*

This is my project this weekend. I currently have a 400w Gemmy but 
Yesterday someone at work offered to sell me their 1000w fogged since they don't use it anymore. The original plan was to build the 5-gallon bucket version but if I buy the co-workers fogger I guess I'll need a bigger chiller. I've been looking around already for end-of-season sales on the company used Igloo Cubes but haven't found any good deals yet.

I do have one question.. Has anyone ever fogged a deck before? My deck is suspended, come out from the first floor over the basement entrance. Halloween party goers usually congregate on both the deck and below it. I know the ambient outside conditions will affect how the chilled fog acts but I curious to know if the deck fog will fall through the cracks of the deck to the covered area below or will it roll across the deck and spill over the edges?

Of course I'll be testing this as soon as the chiller(s) are completed ut was wondering if any else has past experience with this particular scenario.

This was a very informative read!

Booo


----------



## Booo

Ewes. Just read my post.. Spellcheck sucks!


----------



## RoxyBlue

Depending on the volume of fog, how windy it is, how cold it is, and how wide the spaces are between the deck boards, you're apt to see both things happen. Try running the fogger a few times before your party to see what happens if you want to be sure.

I've been in orchestra pits on more than one occasion during a production that incorporated a fogger and I can vouch for the fog spilling down to the lowest level whenever possible Even if it does hug the deck, once it hits the edges, it's heading down and air currents could push it under the deck where your guests are.


----------



## ccjammer

how high does the strainer table has to be on a 5 gallon bucket like the jr.vortex chiller?


----------



## gmacted

ccjammer said:


> how high does the strainer table has to be on a 5 gallon bucket like the jr.vortex chiller?


1/3 air gap to 2/3 ice.


----------



## Fank&Stone

What about using DryIce instead of WaterIce in this Vortex-Type Chillers?
Possible? Or does it not work?

Best regards.


----------



## niblique71

Dry Ice works in almost any chiller. However there are some circumstances where you can actually overchill your fog. My one chiller ended up with a membrane of frozen fog that totally clogged it one year. As with everything, finding a good balance and tuning your dry ice levels will yeild better results. Many of us have found that 10-20% dry ice with 80-90% regular ice seems to work pretty well.

Even with that, there are some that still prefer home-made Ice cubes better than anything else. They aren't hollow and have a better caloric value than store bought ice cubes. Besides there is something about melting Ice in a chiller that seems to make a thicker, better quality fog.


----------



## Lunatic

^^^ Yup, I agree with Nib. The ice adds moisture and weight to the fog.

I also found by using whole ice cubes works best. Small broken pieces can clog the ice wall and chock off the flow of fog.


----------



## Fank&Stone

Thanks for the replies.
I had some similar thoughts.
50:50 mixture or 1/3 dry ice and 2/3 ice cubes.
I will test it what works best for me.

Best regards.


----------



## Chickenwire

Yikes, I just read "some" of the 88 pages. I built me a trash can/dryer vent chiller this past weekend and wasn't super happy at the output (too many bumpy turns? I don't know). I have an ADJ 1200w fogger.
I'm thinking I'll try this, OR the "cooler/wire tunnel" design. Any new ideas or comments for me? Thanks.


----------



## niblique71

Your low output (Lack of ground hugging fog?) was due to the fact that the hot fog needs to have far more direct contact with your cooling medium. A pipe that is submerged in ice will not transfer enough cooling effect to the fog. In fact the pipe will heat up as the fog passes through then cool back down again between bursts. Direct contact with many lbs of ice (or dry ice) is what is needed due to the extreme surface area that naked ice can provide. The best home-made chillers I've seen have all forced fog directly through plain old ice cubes Perhaps with a lb or two of dry ice added.

The wire mesh tube design will work better than the dryer hose in a trash can. but the wire mesh tube allows the fog to just go right through the cooler without picking up much cooliing effect. Again. it seems best to force the fog through your ice for maximum Heat (Cooling) transfer


----------



## Chickenwire

Thanks! I appreciate your input. With the straight through wire mesh/cooler design, if space was left in the top section (ice not completely covering wire mesh), could this possibly serve as an expansion/cooling chamber?


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

Chickenwire said:


> Thanks! I appreciate your input. With the straight through wire mesh/cooler design, if space was left in the top section (ice not completely covering wire mesh), could this possibly serve as an expansion/cooling chamber?


No, you'll need some kind of spacer in the middle. I've tried it with a space in the top, and the fog still doesn't stick the way it should when it finally comes out of the chiller. I believe that it doesn't chill it enough. If you split the interior of the cooler into three spaces (Ice on either end, open space in the middle) it works pretty well. Only ones I've seen work better are Vortex and reverse Vortex chillers.


----------



## Chickenwire

Hmm. That sounds good, too. I would go for the vortex but I am having trouble digesting all 89 pages. A diagram would be helpful. What I've read here (perhaps 30 of the 89 pages, in different spots) is great, but confusing. Too many different ways and I can't figure which is the best. A diagram of a popular design would be great but I can't seem to find that either.


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

If you've seen the kitty litter pail design, all you really have to do is scale it up a little bit. They work terrifically. I built a much bigger version out of a 55 gallon plastic drum the handles my 1000watt and a 400 watt with absolutely no problem.

Here is a link to the design on a kitty litter pail vortex chiller:
http://www.halloweenforum.com/tutorials-step-step/71815-build-your-own-vortex-fusion-chiller.html

I have a couple of these that work great for 400w foggers. Take the design he used and scale it up to the size you need, and you should be good.

**EDIT**
To the mods: I apologize if I was not supposed to link to another forum. Just trying to help the gal out.


----------



## Chickenwire

Thanks! BTW, gal, not guy.


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

Chickenwire said:


> Thanks! BTW, gal, not guy.


Sorry about that. I fixed it now. Follow serial code's design, though, and it works great. I have three regular sized ones and one enlarged one. They all work fantastic.


----------



## Chickenwire

Hey, no problem. I just printed out the whole shebang. I (just by coincidence) have to get some kitty litter....I'll try this brand!


----------



## Chickenwire

You haven't had any trouble with the 'ice dam' mentioned?


----------



## niblique71

The only issue I ever had with an Ice dam was when there was dry ice added to regular ice. It chilled the fog down so much that it actually froze the fog and formed a solid membrane that almost blocked the chamber. Keep in mind that the bigger the fogger, the more ice you will probably want, hence the bigger the chamber/chiller. Many folks love the trash can reverse vortex. It is SUPER simple to build, holds a ton of ice and can take the heat from a 1500 watt or larger . 

As tedious as it may seem to read, Almost all of the principals of an effective fog chiller are contained within it. It's frustrating that many of the pictures are missing, but the info is still there and well worth knowing. There are thousands of hours invested by hundreds of very clever people and the results are pretty convincing.


----------



## Chickenwire

Thanks!! I am using a 1200w fogger. I am going to try the kitty litter size vortex and see what happens.


----------



## Chickenwire

Just went out to WalMart & got a bucket of kitty litter. Hope my kitty likes the brand switch.


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

Do me a favor. let me know how the kitty litter pail holds up to your 1200w fogger. If it works well, I may have to build one for my 1000w. It would be a lot less ice than my current cooler with an ice dam setup.


----------



## Chickenwire

Will do, Bio. I probably will assemble it this weekend.


----------



## Chickenwire

Thanks again for that link. It made things so easy. Sealant still drying, but I plan to crank it up this weekend. I'm going to use small frozen water bottles. They fit PERFECTLY.


----------



## Chickenwire

Anyone have a comment on cleaning fog machines? The used one I bought doesn't seem to be sucking the juice properly. Some say use vinegar, some say don't use vinegar. I ordered some cleaner.


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

I use distilled vinegar and distilled water. About a 70:30 ratio. Get a measuring cup and fill it to about the 3/4 cup mark with vinegar, then top it off to the cup mark with distilled water. Cleans them like a champ.


----------



## Chickenwire

In your experience, might a cleaning be what it needs? Juice goes halfway up tube, fizzes a lot, air bubbles. Fogger works but not a lot of output for a "high output fogger".


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

Not sure. I'd have to see it in person.


----------



## Chickenwire

well, I'll hope for the best. It better do the trick or I'm gonna be pissed...I paid more for it than I really wanted to. Then the stupid guy's stupid dog bit me!


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

Chickenwire said:


> well, I'll hope for the best. It better do the trick or I'm gonna be pissed...I paid more for it than I really wanted to. Then the stupid guy's stupid dog bit me!


I'd have demanded the fogger in payment for my "pain and suffering" where his dog bit me, lol.

You might also want to check the rubber line that goes into the juice tank for pin holes. One of my 400w foggers was spitting and sputtering, and we noticed that it would get air bubbles occasionally. I checked the rubber hose and found a small pin hole in it (we suspect rodent sabotage) You can buy replacement hose at Autozone, and it works well.


----------



## Chickenwire

Hmm. Yes, I did inspect it, but didn't see anything. Although that would make perfect sense. I would have to take the cover off to connect the hose internally, right? Is there a certain name for this hose? Maybe I'll stop at AZ.


----------



## BioHazardCustoms

I just told them I need clear rubber tubing.


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## Fright Zone

Chickenwire said:


> Anyone have a comment on cleaning fog machines? The used one I bought doesn't seem to be sucking the juice properly. Some say use vinegar, some say don't use vinegar. I ordered some cleaner.


This is what Gemmy brand says. They keep it simple. http://www.gemmy.com/customer-service/Fog Machines/fog-machine-question-and-answers


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## tupes

Might have to make one of these thus weekend


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## BioHazardCustoms

Once you make a chiller, you'll never want to run unchilled fog again.


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## Chickenwire

Hey Bio, I got everything now, 1200w fogger fixed, chiller built. I am going to try it out this week & I'll let you know what happens.

I am going to try it with frozen water bottles (shorties)


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## BioHazardCustoms

The 1200w fogger is probably going to overpower that small litter pail chiller, just so you know. I have three of those that I run 400w foggers through, and they work great for that. My 1000w fogger goes through a styrofoam box I got from my wife's doctor's office. For a fogger that size, you might want to invest in a cheap large cooler from a garage sale or thrift store. I've never tried frozen water bottles, so I don't have any input into how well they'll work.


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## Erebus

I don't think the water bottles will work as good as ice cubes. If it was a smaller fog machine, it probably would't be as bad since the fog would go through it slower. Just with ice cubes you have a ton of surface area to cool it off. It just melts fairly quickly. Let us know how it works though.


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## Lunatic

I agree Erebus. The ice also adds moisture and weight to the fog. The results will be good to know just the same. Thanks for posting Chickenwire!


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## Chickenwire

I did make a trash can one also. If the Kitty Litter cooler doesn't work well, I'll go to that. I went with ice bottles to avoid having to dump out melted ice water


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## Fright Zone

Someone on this thread posted 60qt cooler tests on youtube and the frozen H20 bottles didn't work as good as regular ice fwiw. They also get slimy. I may use them for a short 3" x 10' run of dryer duct from a 400W fogger to a cauldron to make it fog. I'd just dump ice in the cauldron but I have lights in there and don't want to mess with it. It should work well enough. Or maybe I'll just fill the duct it with ice. Not sure yet : ) If I go with the H20 I'm going to save empties then fill them with tap water since I wouldn't necessarily want to drink out of them.


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## Fright Zone

...Without going back thru the thread. Here’s video tests I dug up recently. Since we started this monster thread there’s been an incredible amount on youtube. I’ve collected about (90) this month!! The few from the past below may be pertinent right now. I believe it was our own CountZero’s trash bag idea. It bugs me in principle the vids after 2006 don’t admit it’s not their idea (hauntforum members not withstanding). I’ll post these one after the other to keep them separate. Let’s try it. I'm not planning on posting (5).


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## Fright Zone

1) If no one saw this vid. He has an actual Vortex Fusion in action outdoors. Video is named "Continuous Low Fog with a Fogger and Chiller" with a (Chauvet H-1100 FC-T *Continuous* timer). It holds 20lbs of ice. He added 10lbs once. We had some Q&A in the comments. Fwiw he said he wasn't impressed later on with Froggy's Fog juice nor Vortex Volumizing Crystals (which aren't shown). He's in Arizona. He also has a couple ToT videos


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## Fright Zone

2) After I figured out that the 48qt Cube worked as a good DIY Vortex knock-off size and shape way back in 2006. Ironically passing on the Kitty Litter then walking down the cooler aisle in 2006 violå. Here's a hauntforum member's results with the 60qt. He used a reverse flow (outlet used as inlet) and a Fogstorm 1200 trash bag. Including different outdoor fog juice tests at 51 degrees http://www.youtube.com/airscapes


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## Fright Zone

3) One hauntforum member http://www.youtube.com/Lotlster did 60qt tests w/ 3" Pipes and a 1000W VEI V-930T fogger with ice indoors and without the trash bag etc. since he's a DJ. He didn't think the H20 bottles didn't work as well as ice cubes.


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## Fright Zone

4) Here's an interesting variation on the Vortex idea with a long cooler and a plastic jug piece that deflects the fog in the inlet expansion chamber using a 700 watt from Spirit Halloween. Looks like a 50-60qt cooler, 30-40lbs maybe more of ice


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## Fright Zone

5) Like I said I didn't go back into all 92 pages lol Sorry if some of this is a retread but they stood out to me digging up bones.

Here's my channel of (too many) tests on a covered porch, post-ToT quick vid explanations, and some outdoor results in "My DIY Fog Chillers" Playlist. I also tested a small 12qt cooler with various alternatives. Some didn't work out but are interesting. The 400W fooger is OK but I'd recommend higher wattage.

Fwiw on ToT 2006 I used the 400W Gemmy's & their fog juice, which is cheap yes, but it worked for what I needed then, and I couldn't decide which larger fogger to get!

I used a 26gal trash can with I think 20-30lbs of ice & the 2' cut trash bag outlet. I could tell it rose more without the bag but still slow wispy and lingering atmosphere.

I ended up using the 48qt Igloo for a fogging cauldron instead of ground fog. They both came out as slow rising lingering atmosphere than ground hugging clouds of fog. I liked that better.

I also have 12qt and 48qt covered porch tests. I recorded the trash can but never uplaoded it : ( I never got around to the 60qt becasue I didnt' have a high wattage fogger and a hole saw for 3" PVC (although you technically could use a compass and jigsaw.

This was a 48qt reverse flow with trash bag outdoor test.





You may or may not might get something out of it ;; )

Note: They're lo-res before youtube switched to hi-def but watchable. 3 out of 5 from this thread should be enough. http://www.youtube.com/yardhaunt2000


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## Fright Zone

6) I found another good one. He shared info with me. A DIY Vortex reverse flow 44 gallon trash can. That means the fog goes into the pipe that goes to the top that's normally meant to be the outlet. 2" inlet 90deg PVC to the top. Forced down thru (50) frozen H20 bottles suspended with chicken wire with a 10" expansion area at the bottom out to a 2" dia perforated irrigation hose. It would be interesting to see how it performs with ice but he gets great results @3:20. Powerful Chauvet 1300 fogger.


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## Fright Zone

niblique71 said:


> Your low output (Lack of ground hugging fog?) was due to the fact that the hot fog needs to have far more direct contact with your cooling medium. A pipe that is submerged in ice will not transfer enough cooling effect to the fog. In fact the pipe will heat up as the fog passes through then cool back down again between bursts. Direct contact with many lbs of ice (or dry ice) is what is needed due to the extreme surface area that naked ice can provide. The best home-made chillers I've seen have all forced fog directly through plain old ice cubes Perhaps with a lb or two of dry ice added.
> 
> The wire mesh tube design will work better than the dryer hose in a trash can. but the wire mesh tube allows the fog to just go right through the cooler without picking up much cooliing effect. Again. it seems best to force the fog through your ice for maximum Heat (Cooling) transfer


I'd say the trash can can work well though. In theory I'd agree it's one that shouldn't. And I'd think condensation does build up. And curved or rounded angles and ribbed material should break up fog. And no direct contact with ice shouldn't work as wel etc. But first-hand results-wise it's worked for me. Which is why we test when it makes no sense at all lol and honestly I ended up liking slowly rising wispy lingering atmospheric fog outdoors better than the cloud of ground fog from any chiller. Admittedly perfect ground fog is what everyone else here wants though.

I've had good success with only a 400W fogger into 16ft semi-rigid aluminum inside a 26 gal $5 trash can with a 2' trash bag on the outlet. (I'd like to try the softer flexible duct).

It worked just as good as my DIY 48qt Vortex thru ice for 4 hours of ToT use. The can wasn't even full with ice. I can't recall how much. I think 24+ lbs. I also had an unopened bag in the middle. I had tested it with a 3x2 reducer on the outlet to nice effect.

Unfortunately when I recorded my tests. I never uploaded the trash can!!! I don't have the capability anymore since the MiniDV cam broke ; ( The can was so easy to build and needed no real modifications with very nice results. Whereas the Vortex design-wise lended itself to play-time. Too much play-time. Here's an interesting video from someone else with a can and flexible duct. Granted indoors and only for the length of time it took to show it.

GoblinsGlen Low Fog test





Now after all that, ironically Adam from ghostsofhalloween.com who invented the trash can posted here a loooong time ago he's now using no trash can and no ice. Just a 1000W fogger thru capped perforated irrigation hose. There's something about the effect I don't like. But it works.

2007 Fog Chiller / Tube





I agree with you that I never understood how the gotfog.com mesh tube straight thru the middle worked at all for anyone. And a lot of people copy it. Even with styrofoam coolers which fog destroys. (and could get toxic). Ironically, DeathLord who invented the Vortex, modified the gotfog to work as a Fog on the Rocks pre-Vortex design, because people were asking why his worked better than gotfog (which suspiciously knocked of one of his original designs according to Wolfstone lol). That original design even more ironically used smooth-walled metal duct instead of a wire cylider. Which he didn't care for. I dug that info up from my files yesterday.

How many ways do we skin a cat. Or beat a horse to death. Death did we say? Never! Logic be damned. Onward haunting soldiers! lol (And long posts ; )

I promise I won't go back and forth on this. This is all I had to input.


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## Fright Zone

*Vortex Kitty Litter pail 400W video*



Chickenwire said:


> Hey Bio, I got everything now, 1200w fogger fixed, chiller built. I am going to try it out this week & I'll let you know what happens. I am going to try it with frozen water bottles (shorties)


Fyi here's a video of someone who tried a Vortex Kitty Litter pail with a 400W fogger and 3lbs of ice. He doesn't show the insides.


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## deadlyivy

I'm sure it's been asked some where either in this thread or another, but can I get the chiller effect with out a fog machine? Maybe the pipes and just a fan. I have a syrofoam cooler and dry ice to work with. PM me if its easier to answer.

Never mind I answerd my own question by just being creative. I can get a effect thats just about the same with just a syrofoam cooler and dry ice. I'll update this post later on showing how it works. Pics to come.


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## Lunatic

DI,
Dry ice in hot water is my favorite kind of fog. Lots of maintenance though.

Funny story. Years ago a friend of mine got a large styrofoam cooler delivered with steaks in it and a huge block of dry ice. We put water in the cooler with the ice and watched the whole living room floor fill up with beautiful fog. I swear the displacement of oxygen due to the high volumes of co2 made us a little lethargic. Or was it the beer. Beware!

Btw, very nice fog FZ!!!


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## BioHazardCustoms

Personally, I'm not a big fan of dry ice. It's high maintenance, has an odd scent to it, and costs way too much. I'll stick to my secondhand fog machine and my cheapy Halloween store foggers, with home made chillers.

**EDIT**
Has anyone seen the retail price of fog chillers lately? Crazy.


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## Lunatic

I agree Bio. I'll never go back to dry ice after building my vortex style chillers! It was my first Haunt Forum project.


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## ATLfun

Yeah, I am a total washout when it comes to DIY projects and I was able to build an extreme 125 quart cooler chiller. It was so easy, I took pictures of the process and should post them.

The real key for me was rock salt. I spread two boxes of rock salt over the ice, and had very little ice melt. Weird to use salt to keep ice frozen but it worked like a charm. I don't think there is a more awesome effect than fog.


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## Daphne

You mean to tell me we have come full circle and now instead of the chiller (that we ALL built), and the jillion posts (that we ALL read), people are going back to just sticking the nozzle in perforated drainage pipe?

My VEI and chiller combo works great but unfortunately the dreaded down time for reheating hits and you stand around whistling and swaying back and forth for 10 minutes waiting to be back in business and the entire effect you worked so hard for is gone.

Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion I have to add a second fogger. What is the current hot brand for continuous fog? My VEI has been the only fogger I've ever purchased and it has been flawless so I may just stay with them and get a continuous model but thought I'd ask. I may stick my current one on the perforated pipe program and use the new one for the chiller but I have to do something. Has this thread seriously been going since 2006? YIKES!


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## Lunatic

Daphne said:


> What is the current hot brand for continuous fog


The new killer continuous fogger by Hippofeet. 
I don't know about continuous fogging but it's probably pricey.


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## Daphne

Lunatic said:


> The new killer continuous fogger by Hippofeet.
> I don't know about continuous fogging but it's probably pricey.


Hippofeet's fogger kicks butt, no doubt about it, but that is more advanced than I am capable of building I'm afraid.

I'll never forget the horror on my husband's face when he came home and I was sitting in the foyer floor sautering wires for the motors driving my cauldron witch several years ago ha, ha! I'll never forget my horror when I had to plug the motors in and hope they weren't going to explode!


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## kauldron

So rock salt on the ice keeps it from melting fast?? The same kind of rock salt that is advertised in the winter as "ice melter" for your sidewalks or is there another type of rock salt to get? This is the first I have heard of this and I am really curious about how this process works.


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## BioHazardCustoms

WooHoo! Someone revived the 93 page Mega-thread about Fog Chillers! I love this thread!


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## Tokwik

kauldron said:


> So rock salt on the ice keeps it from melting fast?? The same kind of rock salt that is advertised in the winter as "ice melter" for your sidewalks or is there another type of rock salt to get? This is the first I have heard of this and I am really curious about how this process works.


I believe "rock salt" is more of a generic term for larger crystal salt as opposed to the fine crystals that you will see in table salt.

What I use is "ice cream salt" that can be found in your local grocery store in the section with the ice cream. It is used in making your own.

What the salt is actually doing is lowering the freezing point of the ice. By doing this it also raises the amount of energy required to melt the ice. So the end result is that your ice is colder and takes longer to melt.

One thing to keep in mind is that the grass in your lawn does not like the salt water ice melt. If your fogger is located in the yard, I would use the salt sparingly. If it's on the driveway, then not so much.

Hope that helps some.


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## Zombie-F

Now that foggers have their own forum, and given the unmanageable size of this thread, I am now closing it. 7 Years, 94 pages and 932 replies! This may be the longest running thread on the forum.

There is a lot of good info in this thread, so it will remain searchable and available to view.


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