# 400 watt: getting closer



## Hippofeet (Nov 26, 2012)

This is the 400 watt fogger I want to make and sell. I am still not sure it's feasible, there wouldn't be much profit on it to keep it in the same price range as say, a Spirit or Walmart 400 watt. I would not want to go over 50 dollars.






The heat exchanger for this one came from an Antari 1200 watt machine. The machine had a bad (solenoid AC) pump, and a dented case, and was pretty much garbage except the heat exchanger.

Heat exchangers can pretty much be wattage rated by weight, and I will be coming up with a scale for that. This heat exchanger was in the weight range I consider an over performing 400 Watt should be. I now completely ignore the advertised wattage rating for foggers. If it says 1500, it will NEVER draw that rating.

Edited to add:

I figure some people are still like "but why, hippofeet? Why bother?" lol.

To me it would be like I bought a 900 cc motorcycle, and paid appropriately for that size and power. But then it is kind of a dog off the lights, and I cc it and it's a 500 cc motor.

It just seems like an industry standard misrepresentation. Since it is clear that, as a fogger dealer and edging ever so closer to manufacturer, I can name a fogger anything I want, why not lie in a good way? Sure, it's an 800 watt heater in a case that says 400 watts. Why not do that, and have just a tad better performance for the price?

Anyway, that's my thinking here. Like I said, I don't know if it is really the way to go as a business model. 99% of the people I deal with probably couldn't care less about foggers period, except that it plugs in and some fog comes out. And they want the cheapest fog possible. I get that.

So, I guess I will see how this turns out. The custom ones are not going in the catalog or on the website for now, they will be made a few at a time, and only available to people who see my youtube vids, or read the posts here. Like a secret club, for users of fog machines, lol.

Anyway, I still need to tweak a few things, and finalize the stupid case.

A few people asked for specs, unfortunately, I haven't figured out the CFM, or the GPM of the pump. I can only go by the manufacturers specs. Honestly, I don't even know how to accurately measure the CFM output, and I don't want to guess.


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

While price is certainly a consideration, I'd be willing to pay a bit more for a small fogger (or any fogger, for that matter) if the quality was better than the ones sold at Wally's etc. It seems that the lower-wattage foggers are pretty much made to be disposable given that they often fail after just a few hours of use, not to mention out-of-box failures. It can be pretty frustrating to power up a year-old fogger on Halloween night and have it die five minutes later.
I've had exceptionally good luck with my foggers, but I still test them in September.


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## Hippofeet (Nov 26, 2012)

Otaku,

Your "luck" is one reason I am hesitant about this. Because that's been my experience, too. I have a "The Fog Machine" 400 watt that is like a vampire. It's ugly, it's old, I think it's going to live forever. 

Expensive top-of-the-line foggers die, too, usually from failed relays on the control board. And that can happen anytime.

Since you are here, on the site (and at 3,077 posts, clearly a lifer, hahaha) I would figure you would be willing to pay a bit more. Most folks won't. That's the conundrum. How do I make it better, for the same price? It's hard. But I'm getting there.

I figure I buy 2 foggers from overseas. I pull the pumps, and replace with peristaltic DC versions, getting dry running, and less vibration. I sell the solenoid pumps as repair parts, and recoup a bit of cash. I pull the heaters, and set them aside for dual heat exchanger continuous timed running models. I put in one heat exchanger, that gives me just a bit more than the rating on the case. I add a voltage controller for the pump that gives me a medium, but constant output setting. I paint the case (in my dreams, I have my own case made) and, maybe, sell it.

And then, it better be kick ass, that's all I can say.


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## Brad Green (Jul 29, 2004)

Ditto what Otaku stated. I'd be interested in a well built custom fogger (I'm kinda a fogger junkie). Build it and we will come!


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

Using a peristaltic pump would be a great advantage for several reasons, but I'd be concerned that you may have issues with getting the fluid past the inline check valve. Peristaltics are forced to use some fairly soft tubing (silicones) that may not be able to develop enough pressure to open the valve. Viton tubing would would be able to handle the heat and pressure (I think) but doesn't work too well in peristaltics. You could use a different type of check valve but it would need to be able to take the heat and pressure. That said, I haven't yet seen a fogger that doesn't use copper tubing/fittings downstream of the pump, presumably for temp and pressure reasons.
I've been looking at getting a continuous fogger for a few years now but they're all pretty pricey and high-wattage, and I don't really need to fog the whole street so I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with in the low-wattage versions. Keep us posted!


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## Hippofeet (Nov 26, 2012)

Ive run the peristaltic pump in the current fogger, which has a pretty big heat exchanger shoehorned in there, with no problems for 40? hours now. I run the tubing from the pump output right onto the metal tubing coming out of the heat exchanger. No problems with fittings, or leaks. That said, I am looking for a really solid connection for the tubing, something like a compression fitting, just to be sure.

I will hook up the voltage controller inline with the DC going to the pump, and see what I can get for continuous fog. I can always use two exchangers and pumps if I don't like the result. It wouldn't be make it cost like 200 bucks or anything. So far I am still under 50 for the build, but just.


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## Dead Things (Apr 4, 2009)

Otaku said:


> While price is certainly a consideration, I'd be willing to pay a bit more for a small fogger (or any fogger, for that matter) if the quality was better than the ones sold at Wally's etc. It seems that the lower-wattage foggers are pretty much made to be disposable given that they often fail after just a few hours of use, not to mention out-of-box failures. It can be pretty frustrating to power up a year-old fogger on Halloween night and have it die five minutes later.
> I've had exceptionally good luck with my foggers, but I still test them in September.


I totally agree with Otaku. I have done everything possible to keep my fog machines running, including buying their $10 for 500ml of distilled water and white vinegar. This year, out of six small foggers, only two worked. When they went on sale on Nov 1, I was so disgusted I passed, even though they were $7. Build it and they will come! (just have to figure out how to ship it cheap to Canada!).


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## Hippofeet (Nov 26, 2012)

2 out of 6? I wish I could take them apart, but part of the problem is that every part can fail. The heater, if made with a very thin (cast in) resistance heating wires can fail, they just show an open, and no heat. The pumps can go, even if they are not run dry. I think the cleaners affect the o-rings, when left in the pump for a season. If you flush it out with water, the water will evaporate, leaving the o-ring dry. I suppose you could take it apart every year and vaseline it, but...

Yeah, things I want to fix. 

7 bucks for a fogger? I don't know how they could do that. I mean, what did they pay, 2 bucks? There's lot's of little costs in putting that on the shelf.


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## Dead Things (Apr 4, 2009)

Taking them apart is going to be (one of) my winter projects. On two of the dead, the "ready" light would not come on (I was using remotes that I knew where functioning). The other two, the "ready" light would come on, but the pumps weren't working (no sound). 
I need at least two of these working as the 400 watts are the only size that will fit in my columns and feed fog to my gargoyles. I would prefer to have two more for the my witch scene but I can work round that. 
The cleaning protocol I use was from the manufacturer (Gemmy, I believe). After the first batch of foggers died (I've been down this road before) I sent them an angry email. I was surprised when they responded. Their recommendation for storage is to empty the machines of fog fluid, pour in their very expensive vinegar and distilled water, run that through the machines, drain that, then run just distilled water, drain that and dry the machine, inside and out, using compressed air. I still had non functioning machines the next year.
That price was clearance, post Halloween. I got a 1000 watt for $15! It still ticking, but I also use it for gigs, so it runs regularly.


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## Lunatic (Oct 3, 2006)

I wasn't happy with customer service with my brand new Martin when I first bought it. I spent a lot of money, the remote was deeply scratched and looked used, and the fog shot upwards. Sent it back and it was returned in the same condition. I trust no one after that experience. 

Anyone who has had experience with fogger failures would be happy to do business with an honest and knowledgeable manufacturer that will stand behind its products. Quality products and honesty makes you successful right out of the gate. I expect you'll do well Hippofeet. Good luck!


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## Tokwik (Oct 12, 2011)

Through in some fluid and I'd be more than happy to purchase one of your prototypes and help test. 

I'll gladly spend my money on a machine built by an individual who stands behind their products.

Keep up the good work.


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

Dead Things said:


> Their recommendation for storage is to empty the machines of fog fluid, pour in their very expensive vinegar and distilled water, run that through the machines, drain that, then run just distilled water, drain that and dry the machine, inside and out, using compressed air. I still had non functioning machines the next year.


I've tried pretty much all of the different storage conditions with my foggers (drain the fluid; drain and run distilled water through the fogger, store dry; leave the fluid in). It didn't seem to make a difference at all how they were stored. The only failure I've had was when I let a 700W machine run dry for an extended period, and getting the dried fluid out of the heat exchanger was a pain. I just leave the fluid in them now. I don't know if this makes a difference, but Froggy's is the only fluid I'll use. I stopped using the cheap Spirit stuff when I bought a gallon that was mostly chunks of precipitated glycerine.

Okay, back to our regularly scheduled thread...


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## Thisaintmayberry (Aug 23, 2010)

> Anyway, that's my thinking here. Like I said, I don't know if it is really the way to go as a business model. 99% of the people I deal with probably couldn't care less about foggers period, except that it plugs in and some fog comes out. And they want the cheapest fog possible. I get that.


Here's another Quote: _*"If you build it, they will come."*_

Business models notwithstanding, if you build an honest product for a fair price - and stand behind it - word will get around. Any marketing company or salesperson will tell you that word of mouth referrals are THE #1 MARKETING TOOL of any product or service. Look at the marketing power wielded on this forum and just in this string!


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