# Most realistic flicker flame candle yet!



## corey872 (Jan 10, 2010)

Happened to be at a dinner theater the other night and was looking around at some of the tables. During the show, I mused at how some of the tables got real candles and some got the LED flickering ones. Only after the show I noticed all the candles were 'fake' but some tables had a new version of flicker candle.






I will have to try my hand at building one of these, but basically, they appear to be a 'flame shape' piece of plastic which 'hangs' on a thin wire support. A steady LED shines at the plastic from below and some mechanism makes the plastic bobble back and forth. As the plastic bobbles, the LED shines on different parts of it and gives the effect of 'flickering'. Looks very real until you get within just a few feet.


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## Wildcat (Nov 3, 2007)

Those look great.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

The waving Mylar may give you the look you want, but these candles use, according to the manufacturer, a bulb with three filaments and a magnetic switch that flickers power between the three.
They are made by Luminara, and are fairly expensive, but I agree, they do look very real.
You can find them on Amazon: Luminara Flickering Flame Candle


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## Jack Mac (Nov 28, 2012)

Wow, those look so real! Nice, now I think I might have to get a couple of them since the ones I was eying are just not good enough anymore.


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## Troll Wizard (May 3, 2012)

Those candles are really a great idea. Works really well for when you need effects inside and don't have to worry about flames catching something on fire.


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

The nice ones are still led lit. They use a piece of mylar that is set up to rotate like a pendulum (or one of those old self drinking bird toys) balanced on a small wire. To the bottom of which is attached a small magnet. By using the current flowing through the same or second flickering led a small coil of wire is driven that attracts the magnet intermittently. Should be fairly easy to duplicate this. It's driven just like the featherweight electromagnet actuators on RC gliders.

Update: I thought I had this somwhere, I just had to look for it....take a look at US patent number: 7159994 B2


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## ScaryTinker (Mar 23, 2007)

*Electromagnet Actuators?*

Homey,

You mentioned "featherweight electromagnet actuators on RC gliders".

I'm intrigued - Can you provide a link?


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

ScaryTinker said:


> Homey,
> 
> You mentioned "featherweight electromagnet actuators on RC gliders".
> 
> I'm intrigued - Can you provide a link?


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## corey872 (Jan 10, 2010)

Looks like you folks have solved most of the mysteries before I've even had a chance to tear a real one apart. An electromagnet would be a good way to provide the 'wiggle'. The little plastic 'flame' was balanced and very easy to swing, so I suspect very little current would be needed and it's probably the lowest power method to make the movement.

A person might be able to use mylar for a little different effect. The one I looked at - and I believe the one in the video were opaque white plastic shaped somewhat like a flame with the warm white LED focused on it. Though obviously one could combine different LED colors and flame materials.


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

Ironically, one way to drive that featherweight actuator might be a tea light flicker circuit.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2012)

I have seen these for sale and love the whole idea... But they are expensive, and appear to be delicate. I'm uneasy whenever delicate and expensive come together. I first saw them advertised in the Frontgate catalog. If you are familiar with that company, you'll have a good idea of how much these things cost.


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## fritz42_male (May 5, 2009)

Otaku said:


> Ironically, one way to drive that featherweight actuator might be a tea light flicker circuit.


My thoughts exactly. Just boost the output of a tealight circuit with a transistor and drive a larger led and the actuator coil.

The video is interesting but you don't really get an idea of scale. The rudder assembly actuator I saw on one tiny model plane was only about 5mm square!

I think a tiny piece of iron on the bottom of a suspended candleflame along with a little hand wound coil would do the job.

I'm just wondering if linking to a pager motor might be an interesting way to go as well. I'll have to have a play when I get back to Aus.


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## fritz42_male (May 5, 2009)

Tiny actuator parts kit if anybody fancies trying it

http://www.microflight.com/NanoAct-Actuator-Kit


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## hpropman (Jul 27, 2008)

What about air movement instead of an actuator maybe from a perhaps from a small fan or an aquarium air pump to move the mylar from below. This is an idea worth exploring. Can someone please post a picture of how the mylar / plastic is mounted to the top of the candle? I am sure that we can make these using PVC pipe covered in hot glue or even a real wax candle, now we just need to see how this mechanism works so that we can emulate it.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

You can use a small rod, dowel, etc., with the Mylar "Flames" wrapped around it suspended above a fan with the light source(s) off to the sides. The hard part is that you have to have a power supply for the fan and lights. While power for the lights isn't hard to do, having the power for the fan, in that compact space can be a challenge. Keep in mind that you need to keep an open access for air from below for the fan to propel. If you try to use the air coming in from above, the same direction you are trying to blow the air, you end up creating turbulence that will keep your "flame" from flickering very well, if at all, and the efficiency of the fan will be greatly compromised too. The noise and vibration from the fan can be an issue too, for some applications. If it, the candle, will be used in a noisy scene or situation, then it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal.

The Luminara candles appear to be strictly a specialized bulb rather than the use of Mylar or some other polyester film.


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## corey872 (Jan 10, 2010)

The fan would certainly work for either mylar or even just to blow the plastic 'flame' around. The downside is a fan will gobble quite a bit of power and have some noise associated with it. These may or may not be big issues depending on the set-up - especially if you don't mind running wires/power cord to each candle.

I suspect the retail units are using some type of magnetic coil. That has the benefit of being silent and very low power. A small magnetic coil and couple of AA batteries will keep a fake clock pendulum swinging for months. This little 'flame' is considerably smaller and lighter than a pendulum, so I suspect power consumption to keep it running through magnets would be practically zero compared to the LED.


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

It's not hard at all to do this as I said before. Grab a flickering led like the one's from Electronic Goldmine, wind a small coil of copper wire (I used some #26 I had laying around) and a small button type neodymium magnet.

The flickering led will draw current through the coil intermittently as it flickers on and off causing a small magnetic field to build and collapse across the coil.
This is plenty to move the magnet around. You could use the light from the flickering led for the flame or use another brighter warm white led to provide light for the flame (or both).

You just need to play with the length of the pendulum arm and the distance between the coil and magnet to get the movement right.








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## diggerc (Feb 22, 2006)

I don't know what is going on inside this one but it uses a pendulum.
http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user/DaveNTracy/media/Haunted Mansion Animated Candle/003-1.mp4.html


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

Same concept only using an AC timer motor to move some magnets driving a pendulum setup.
I just need to figure out a way to have a visible non-moving burning wick (the only thing missing).


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

Ok, this is what I had in mind when I first saw this effect over at a Halloween Forum post last year I believe.






And here's the schematic for what I used:


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## corey872 (Jan 10, 2010)

Yep - that is pretty much what I had in mind. Though my thought was with the proper sized wire coil and a big flicker LED from evilmadscientist, it might just be possible to run the LED and coil in series with no additional components. That would really save on power... no resistors, transistors, second flicker LED, etc.

A couple of keys would be to keep the bottom 'pendulum' as short as possible, so even the smallest current/magnetic field would tweak the 'flame' and also making sure you have 'like' poles facing each other on the permanent and electromagnet. This would represent sort of a magnetic 'sphere' or 'bubble' which the permanent magnet would dance all around, making a very random flickering. if they happen to be opposite poes, this would represent sort of a 'funnel' and the permanent magnet would always be drawn to the center - limiting the 'flicker'.


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

The problem is two fold. If you use one from evilmadscientist they draw 30 ma. not much more than the standard which is 20 ma. . That is the maximum current draw you will get and that is intermittent. I've played with this and there is just not enough current from the led alone to create a magnetic field that will create movement. The best compromise so-far given battery sizes and weight of the pendulum itself was to boost the output and also add a very small neodymium magnet to enhance the effect of the small field generate by the coil. I also worked with different coil configurations, sizes and shapes. The field is greatest in the center of the coil where the field lines overlap and focus. If the diameter is too large you loose focus, if it is too small the focus is too narrow and tries to hold the object still. I have some magnetic field viewing film (works like iron filings on paper) that lets me see the magnetic field lines around the coil and it actually moves/rotates as the led flickers on and off. 

I will be changing the flame design since the hole with a wire through it limits the movement. I will also be adding a second coil setup and mounting the two coils at a slight angle on either side of the pendulum. 

I have a completely new and simpler design that I'll try in a day or so time permitting. I really want to have a solid dark wick at the center for realism.


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## corey872 (Jan 10, 2010)

Good to have the additional input - you have obviously put a lot of thought into the whole set-up, so maybe the lower power levels won't work. Though in looking at the retail set-up, I think the big key here is going to be 'small'.

In looking at the way they were rigged, the 'flame' had a tiny ball on the 'dangling' end. It was all enclosed in plastic, but if it held a magnet, it couldn't have been much bigger than the diameter of a pencil lead or a 'BB' pellet. It was also hanging a much shorter distance below the flame, I'd estimate 1/4 to 3/8 inch, but no more.

In combining these two features...very small magnet and relatively short lever arm, it could be that the whole 'flame' assembly is almost balanced around the hole where it hangs on the wire. This would mean only very tiny forces are needed to make the flame 'flicker', and combining the short lever arm with the magnet would mean small displacements of the magnet are amplified to the 'flame' for a more dramatic effect.

I didn't have the chance to take one apart, but I wonder of the coil of wire could nearly surround the magnet to increase coupling - and further if the coil of wire was made of very thin wire to increase the ampere-turns... 30mA through 50 turns of thin magnet wire would get you 1.5 AT of magnetic force. Surely that would cause the flame to bobble around a few tenths of an inch?


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## HomeyDaClown (Oct 3, 2009)

One of my first trials was to use a short length of steel wire with the end coiled up trying to lighten the load. A little extra weight actually helped the flame by giving a bit of swing momentum and also returning it to center to await the next pulse but was still not enough. Next I added a very small magnet (one half of a tiny necklace clasp) and got a little better movement. Finally with the neodynium magnet it was moving pretty good. Another improvment would be to use a darlington transistor to add some gain to the output but I think I have a much better solution overall that I will have to try next. 

The flame needs to be translucent to distrubute the light more evenly across the surface so I will try that along with a totally new pivot design that will let me mount a stationary wick in the center.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2012)

Any updates to report here? I saw a display of Luminaria candles at the garden center. They were $60 each. Ouch! The price hasn't come down at all since I originally saw them in the Frontgate catalog. We have to be able to put these together for less than that.


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## corey872 (Jan 10, 2010)

Nothing here - I've had the project on the back burner, hoping I might find one of those candles for cheap and be able to tear it apart to see the guts of the thing. Or hoping I might find a set cheap enough to just buy!

I did find a few, but they were a terrible knock-off of the original. The 'flame' looked more like a needle on a gauge which just 'twitched' every few seconds in a very rigid back-and-forth motion. The candles I saw had a very organic 'fluttering' of the 'flame'.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2012)

Reverse-engineering an electronic gizmo is way outside my skill set. But if someone else cracks the code, I'm pretty sure I can follow their instructions and build my own. (And I want to.)


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## GCWyatt (Aug 30, 2012)

I have a lantern I'd live to mount a flickering LED in, but adding this wiggle to it would be great! I just don't think there's enough room inside the lantern to rig a pendulum over a magnet. What about running three or four flickering LEDs in parallel? Wouldn't that make it brighter and randomly flickering enough? Especially if the lantern glass is smoked?


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## Otaku (Dec 3, 2004)

GCWyatt said:


> I have a lantern I'd live to mount a flickering LED in, but adding this wiggle to it would be great! I just don't think there's enough room inside the lantern to rig a pendulum over a magnet. What about running three or four flickering LEDs in parallel? Wouldn't that make it brighter and randomly flickering enough? Especially if the lantern glass is smoked?


Yep, that works. Spookyblue posted the multi-LED flicker thingie on his website years ago.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2012)

Thanks Otaku! That will be a good alternative.


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## Lord Homicide (May 11, 2012)

Yep these are realistic as it gets for a flame teased by slight air disturbances . I picked one up in a thrift store for $4 even though it has an ugly gold base. 

My mother bought me a pair of them for $50 I think as they sit on the dining room table. Looks so real they faked the neighbors out that were over for dinner sitting right in front of them!!


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## MadCityHaunt (Mar 17, 2014)

Nice find! I thought the video was fake until it showed the flame from the side view. Thanks for the heads up.


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