# Vortex vs reverse Vortex



## curley (Apr 3, 2011)

So I looked through the threads and can't find anyone talking about the pros and cons. Looking to see the big difference between the original style Vortex vs the Reverse flow Vortex... I'm sure this has been discussed before.. Sorry just can't find it thanks.. Btw making the trash can style., just looking to see which flow to go with... Thanks guys


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## Lunatic (Oct 3, 2006)

OMG! Not the Vortex discussion again. That is one long ass thread. That thread is why I joined Haunt Forum.

I use the reverse vortex method. At that time some of us had the mind set that using gravity to help the fog flow downwards through the ice wall and exiting made more sense than the standard vortex design where the fog was pushed up through the ice then exit down through the tube and then out. Some experienced less blow back out of the inlet between fogging cycles. After countless experiments and observing other peoples results I think you will see similar results either way in how the chiller produces fog. 

The other reason why I went "reverse" is so I could place the fogger on top of the chiller to keep it off the ground. It made more sense to me. I'm sure there are people with other opinions but chilling the fog is the most important thing. Less important is the direction it flows.


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## curley (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks Lunatic.. Reverse it is


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## Spooky1 (Aug 25, 2008)

I just tested my chiller both directions over the weekend and the reverse method seemed to be slightly better. I also recommend the trash bag over the end to help spread the fog.


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## niblique71 (Dec 2, 2009)

Lunatic said:


> OMG! Not the Vortex discussion again. That is one long ass thread. That thread is why I joined Haunt Forum.
> 
> I use the reverse vortex method. At that time some of us had the mind set that using gravity to help the fog flow downwards through the ice wall and exiting made more sense than the standard vortex design where the fog was pushed up through the ice then exit down through the tube and then out. Some experienced less blow back out of the inlet between fogging cycles. After countless experiments and observing other peoples results I think you will see similar results either way in how the chiller produces fog.
> 
> The other reason why I went "reverse" is so I could place the fogger on top of the chiller to keep it off the ground. It made more sense to me. I'm sure there are people with other opinions but chilling the fog is the most important thing. Less important is the direction it flows.


Interestingly enough I don't think there was ever an "official" description or definition of a reverse vortex chiller. I bring this up because you place your fogger on top and pump the hot fog downward before it gets inside olf your chiller. Tehcnically you are using it as a reverse vortex, but defeat the purpose by placing the fogger high and not low. yes there is a matter of space and convenience with that arrangement, bu the purist in me just had to bring this up.

If I was allowed to give an official true descrition of a "reverse Vortex" chiller, I would describe it as this:

A Reverse vortex chiller always follows the rules of convection:

The fog machoine is always Low. Hot fog enters at the bottom of the chiller in the inlet pipe with the 90 degree pipe and flows or is pumped to the top of the chamber before contacting any ice or cooling medium (heat rises). Then the fog cools and falls as it makes contact with the ice. Then through convection or pressure, the chilled fog exits directly out of the chamber at the bottom through an opening or another pipe.

In a "true" reverse vortex chiller, the fog will still flow between bursts as long as there is fog in the chamber just using natural convection....... Unless there is a lot of wind.

Of course this is over anylitical, LOL but I was always baffled by wanting to put the fogger on top and having the hot fog leak back up the inlet pipe between bursts.

PS: Love ya Lunatic... was just making a point  I know both methods work very well.

My Chillers Flow constantly between bursts with some beautiful dense ground hugging fog.


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## R. Lamb (Oct 11, 2011)

Now I have just ONE question that hasn't been addressed here. " How high can I push the fog?" In other words there has to be a limit to how tall I can make my Vortex chiller. Rather than have a low wide chiller, can I make a tall skinny one?


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## curley (Apr 3, 2011)

Nib and lunatic.. You both are the man!!!!


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## niblique71 (Dec 2, 2009)

R. Lamb said:


> Now I have just ONE question that hasn't been addressed here. " How high can I push the fog?" In other words there has to be a limit to how tall I can make my Vortex chiller. Rather than have a low wide chiller, can I make a tall skinny one?


My inclination is that a tall skinny one would work VERY well. You'll have to explore how far you can push the limits of your materials since Ice does create some weight and dynamic pressures on your structure (Mass on foam will fail at some point). But in theory, I believe it would work spectacularly.


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## niblique71 (Dec 2, 2009)

We probably should transfer some of this discussion to the "Big Thread" ???


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## RoxyBlue (Oct 6, 2008)

Personally, I'm good with this discussion staying here so it won't get lost The big thread started out primarily as a "how to make one of these chillers" thread. This thread is seeking opinions about how changing the flow direction or height of the chiller affects output, which I think are legitimate stand-alone topics.


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## fontgeek (Jul 24, 2006)

Because your fog is heated, if you have your fogger higher than it's outlet it means your fogger's fan is having to work extra hard to push the fog out. Since the fog coming out of the machine is warmer than the ambient temperature it will want to rise, if your fogger is higher than the outlet/opening, it means that the heated fog will try to go back up through the pipe towards the fogger, once it has gotten beyond the opening it will seek the path of least resistance and dissipate with the breeze (if you are outdoors) or air flow in general.


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## R. Lamb (Oct 11, 2011)

Good answer! Thank you fontgeek


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## Lunatic (Oct 3, 2006)

niblique71 said:


> Interestingly enough I don't think there was ever an "official" description or definition of a reverse vortex chiller. I bring this up because you place your fogger on top and pump the hot fog downward before it gets inside olf your chiller. Tehcnically you are using it as a reverse vortex, but defeat the purpose by placing the fogger high and not low. yes there is a matter of space and convenience with that arrangement, bu the purist in me just had to bring this up.
> 
> If I was allowed to give an official true descrition of a "reverse Vortex" chiller, I would describe it as this:
> 
> ...


I agree about the natural convection straight in and up to the top. But I am still using the reverse vortex method but with a little more pvc. The fog IS being pumped up into the top of the ice chamber where it falls down through the ice and out the bottom. I place my fogger on top of the chiller just to get it off the ground. I use long sweep pvc 45's to push the fog down and around to the side of the chiller straight up to the top of the inside of the chiller. It's a little extra piping but it works great and It really doesn't matter if there is a any fog leaking out of the inlet...it's minimal. I tested both ways when I built them and the performance was very similar. I just prefer to keep the fogger off the wet ground.


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## Lunatic (Oct 3, 2006)

fontgeek said:


> Because your fog is heated, if you have your fogger higher than it's outlet it means your fogger's fan is having to work extra hard to push the fog out. Since the fog coming out of the machine is warmer than the ambient temperature it will want to rise, if your fogger is higher than the outlet/opening, it means that the heated fog will try to go back up through the pipe towards the fogger, once it has gotten beyond the opening it will seek the path of least resistance and dissipate with the breeze (if you are outdoors) or air flow in general.


I understand the convection logic but it's really not that huge of an issue here. The most important thing about chilling fog is pushing it through the ice. I don't agree that the fogger is working harder. There's no fan in a fogger or at least not the types I have. The fogger nozzle is placed 2-3 inches away from the chiller inlet to pull in air which is essential. The fogger works the same no matter where it's sitting. The fog is still entering into the same inlet if the fogger sits on the ground or on top of the chiller. Yes, the extra pvc bends will technically condense a little more fog on the pipes inside but fog chillers get wet and nasty anyway. No big woop.


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## niblique71 (Dec 2, 2009)

LOL, 


Sorry Lunatic, I didn't mean to open a can of worms there


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## curley (Apr 3, 2011)

Hahah, I didn't mean to start a war here LOL.. All of you have valid points... My question is this.. If it just make sense to pump the fog to the top, and let it fall to the bottom an out the outlet.. Why is the Vortex company not designing them that way??


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## Lunatic (Oct 3, 2006)

No war friends. Sometimes I respond without fully explaining myself which leaves questions in peoples heads. 

Curley, When I was involved with that Vortex thread I don't think anyone had an answer as to why Vortex pumps the fog in that way. At the time some of the members building their own Vortex style chillers experimented with reversing the flow and liked the results. Some liked the logic of using gravity to help push the fog down through the ice and out the bottom. Others observed less blow back in between cycles amongst other reasons. 

In my opinion they both work well. Some prefer one direction over the another but ultimately each produces good fog.


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